Al Horford to the 4?

[PandaKidd]

MKG shoots like this :

[Jamaaliver]

It's like he's trying to say that the only interest in Howard was because he was a C...............rather than the fact that he's Dwight Frickin Howard.

Fair point. Dwight Howard is indeed a top talent worth bringing in to play any position.

But, it seems pretty clear Ferry's #1 plan last off-season was to acquire a top Center, move AL to PF.

Also worth noting: Before we even had a chance to pitch to Dwight Howard, he used multiple draft picks on the Center position.

[MaceCase]

It's like he's trying to say that the only interest in Howard was because he was a C...............rather than the fact that he's Dwight Frickin Howard.

Fair point. Dwight Howard is indeed a top talent worth bringing in to play any position.

But, it seems pretty clear Ferry's #1 plan last off-season was to acquire a top Center, move AL to PF.

Also worth noting: Before we even had a chance to pitch to Dwight Howard, he used multiple draft picks on the Center position.

1)Given that he would have needed as much space as possible if he managed to execute his plan of 2 maxes it made perfect sense to draft 3 guys who were unlikely to see an NBA roster in 2013-14.

2) Paul Milsap, a PF, was Ferry's first and highest paid free agent signing.

3) Given the development that Bebe needs who's to say that he's not Al's potential replacement

[Geaux_Hawks]

Not signing Howard still doesn't give an explanation to the Milsaps signing. There were other centers still available(i.e. Kaman, Jefferson).

Or like Pero Antic, Lucas Nogueira?

Ferry went after Centers last summer. The one's he got were underwhelming. It's fair to say he's preparing for life with some one else manning the 5 spot in the near future. We've been linked Asik and Hawes for quite a while also.

As far as Jefferson...in hindsight that probably would have been the way to go based on price, age, production.

The real headscratcher, is why didn't he draft Gorgui Dieng last summer? He filled a need as backup center to Horford, or replacement when he went down. Ready to contribute on Day One.

I can see Ferry going after Hawes just because of what did last summer. He signed Antic who was essentially a big floor spacer and drafted Bebe, who needed a year to bulk, but he can provide rim protection. Hawes will replace Antic, Bebe would come over, Sap is probably going to be traded, and hopefully that opens up a move for a quality upgrade on the wing.

IMO Ferry wanted upside over somebody that can start now at center just because he's not in a rush to slide Horford over. Jefferson made plenty of sense to pick up, and like you said, Dieng(who came on really late) was available.

[Jamaaliver]

3) Given the development that Bebe needs who's to say that he's not Al's potential replacement

Not even a possibility...the most likely scenario, sadly. Almost a clear cut certainty.

I can see Ferry going after Hawes just because of what did last summer. He signed Antic who was essentially a big floor spacer and drafted Bebe, who needed a year to bulk, but he can provide rim protection. Hawes will replace Antic, Bebe would come over, Sap is probably going to be traded, and hopefully that opens up a move for a quality upgrade on the wing.

Interesting foresight. it'll be interesting to see which way this goes.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Why does every one overlook the fact that Al and Paul's chemistry was off the charts before Al went down. I highly doubt that Ferry trades Al or Milsap in a lateral move. The only way one of them gets traded is if its for a legit star. I think thats the only way we see a major change to last year's lineup. He will stick with last year's team and hopefully add a decent player on a 1 year contract to fill the cap space.

You all are also overlooking the fact that trading Milsap will likely end up with us having less cap space in 2015 where there is an absolutely stacked free agency class. If we can't land a star, I would rather give this squad, with slight upgrades, one more chance and look to retool in 2015. There's no point in wasting possible 2015 cap space on some player that may make us marginally better.

[theatlfan]

Random thoughts on this thread:
First, while it is true that Ferry chased 2 big name Cs (Howard and Bynum) and landed 5 more, we should also note we paid all 5 about $2.5M more than MIL paid Zaza, so it wasn't just about landing a starting C - there was also some thought to fortifying the depth at the position.

I think our hopeful scenario would be to have Nogueira and Muscala push Antic for the backup C position this year so we can go forward without Antic next season. Antic would be pushing 34 - not ancient, but no spring chicken for a professional athlete either.

There's 48 minutes in a ballgame and most guys only play around 32-35 minutes per game so Horford can still log plenty of time at PF with Milsap on the team if we found a reliable center. Milsap can also play low minutes at SF which opens more time for Horford at PF if the coaches care to do that. Milsap at SF would have to be in limited SF though. I prefer him at the PF.

The problem with this argument is that, while it's true that there are 48 minutes in a game, probably 1/2 of those you know when the opponent's starting C is in the game - at the start of the game, at the start of the 2nd 1/2, and to end the game. Those would be the minutes we'd want to save Al from, but if we follow this suggestion, then it'd mean putting an AS on the bench at 3 critical junctures of the game.

No, if we want to move Al to the 4 - even part time - then we have to deal Millsap. I really don't see any way around that.

Personally I like the idea of trading Milsap for a wing player and possibly a good pick in this years draft. I don't think that's too far fetched either considering Milsap's performance this year. Perhaps maybe Milsap and our 43rd draft pick for charlottes 9th draft pick and Michael Kidd-Gilchrest? Then we would have our wing player and move Horford to the 4. Thoughts anyone?

This is an interesting thought. As PandaKidd points out, we'd be counting on Coach Bud and crew to enact a miracle, but the reward could be very, very high. The only issue I can see is that I'd think the obvious best talent on the board will most likely be a PF though so we're not really moving Horford back to PF...


And perhaps most importantly...

[...]

.......Who are you and where did you come from?!

Have we gotten the answer to this yet?!?!

[Baller2014]

you cant play AH at PF until you get rid of Paul Millsap .

Right? I thought we had this argument before.

What has to happen is AH and the FO has to define his role. If hes a CENTER, then Millsap WORKS. IF hes a PF, then we must get rid of Millsap NOW this offseason AND pickup a Center.

There's 48 minutes in a ballgame and most guys only play around 32-35 minutes per game so Horford can still log plenty of time at PF with Milsap on the team if we found a reliable center. Milsap can also play low minutes at SF which opens more time for Horford at PF if the coaches care to do that. Milsap at SF would have to be in limited SF though. I prefer him at the PF.

Fans often say this sort of thing. Pistons fans said it last offseason about Monroe and Smith and Drummond on message boards all over the net, and I've heard this tune many a time. Unfortunately real life rotations don't work this way. I also don't think Milsap really works at the 3. If the team had Asik for free, then I'd say sure, start Asik, much the same way the Spurs start Splitter, and bring Milsap off the bench. Asik would play the same sort of minutes as Splitter for it to work (about 22mpg) and Milsap would be getting minutes off the bench (about 24-28 mpg tops). That's the model for this working. But to think all 3 of them can share out 32-35 mins per game... that's just not realistic outside of nba2K. Can you think of any real 3 big rotations where that happened?

[Years90Suns]

Let's see things this way:
- we can wait for a year, until Antic and Millsap probably are gone. Then Horford will be 29 (as he is celebrating his 28th birthday in 5 days from now) and probably he will be already too banged up to extend his career to those limits when some players arrive but taking care of themselves, not suffering injuries or playing in a more confortable position (Aldridge, Duncan).
- we can wait for Nogueira's developement and then switch Horford to the 4. Same scenario.
- we can get a real C now and keep Millsap for this season, then see what we and what he wants, depending on how much he played, and what plans we have.

I am not asking for a star caliber center (or yes if we can get Monroe), but just for a player who can defend the post, block some shots, play 32-36 minutes and may be open the court for Al toplay downlow against weaker opponnets at PF.

[Baller2014]

Monroe is not the player you want. He's a guy who doesn't really fit at the 4 or 5, and sure isn't the 5 you're looking for.

[ATLHawksfan21]

you cant play AH at PF until you get rid of Paul Millsap .

Right? I thought we had this argument before.

What has to happen is AH and the FO has to define his role. If hes a CENTER, then Millsap WORKS. IF hes a PF, then we must get rid of Millsap NOW this offseason AND pickup a Center.

There's 48 minutes in a ballgame and most guys only play around 32-35 minutes per game so Horford can still log plenty of time at PF with Milsap on the team if we found a reliable center. Milsap can also play low minutes at SF which opens more time for Horford at PF if the coaches care to do that. Milsap at SF would have to be in limited SF though. I prefer him at the PF.

Fans often say this sort of thing. Pistons fans said it last offseason about Monroe and Smith and Drummond on message boards all over the net, and I've heard this tune many a time. Unfortunately real life rotations don't work this way. I also don't think Milsap really works at the 3. If the team had Asik for free, then I'd say sure, start Asik, much the same way the Spurs start Splitter, and bring Milsap off the bench. Asik would play the same sort of minutes as Splitter for it to work (about 22mpg) and Milsap would be getting minutes off the bench (about 24-28 mpg tops). That's the model for this working. But to think all 3 of them can share out 32-35 mins per game... that's just not realistic outside of nba2K. Can you think of any real 3 big rotations where that happened?

This is where you are 100% incorrect. Smith, Monroe and Drummond all cannot make a basket outside of 10 ft. This kills the spacing for Detroit. Horford and Milsap are both above average midrange shooters and Milsap has proven that he can hit the 3. Besides, I said minimal minutes where Milsap, Horford and a C were all on the court at the same time. Either way, it would work much better with our group than it would with the Pistons due to spacing and having more versatile big men on offense.

How can you overlook this?

[ATLHawksfan21]

Random thoughts on this thread:
First, while it is true that Ferry chased 2 big name Cs (Howard and Bynum) and landed 5 more, we should also note we paid all 5 about $2.5M more than MIL paid Zaza, so it wasn't just about landing a starting C - there was also some thought to fortifying the depth at the position.

I think our hopeful scenario would be to have Nogueira and Muscala push Antic for the backup C position this year so we can go forward without Antic next season. Antic would be pushing 34 - not ancient, but no spring chicken for a professional athlete either.

There's 48 minutes in a ballgame and most guys only play around 32-35 minutes per game so Horford can still log plenty of time at PF with Milsap on the team if we found a reliable center. Milsap can also play low minutes at SF which opens more time for Horford at PF if the coaches care to do that. Milsap at SF would have to be in limited SF though. I prefer him at the PF.

The problem with this argument is that, while it's true that there are 48 minutes in a game, probably 1/2 of those you know when the opponent's starting C is in the game - at the start of the game, at the start of the 2nd 1/2, and to end the game. Those would be the minutes we'd want to save Al from, but if we follow this suggestion, then it'd mean putting an AS on the bench at 3 critical junctures of the game.

No, if we want to move Al to the 4 - even part time - then we have to deal Millsap. I really don't see any way around that.

Personally I like the idea of trading Milsap for a wing player and possibly a good pick in this years draft. I don't think that's too far fetched either considering Milsap's performance this year. Perhaps maybe Milsap and our 43rd draft pick for charlottes 9th draft pick and Michael Kidd-Gilchrest? Then we would have our wing player and move Horford to the 4. Thoughts anyone?

This is an interesting thought. As PandaKidd points out, we'd be counting on Coach Bud and crew to enact a miracle, but the reward could be very, very high. The only issue I can see is that I'd think the obvious best talent on the board will most likely be a PF though so we're not really moving Horford back to PF...


And perhaps most importantly...

[...]

.......Who are you and where did you come from?!

Have we gotten the answer to this yet?!?!

Except I'm not one who thinks that Horford should spend 0 time guarding Centers. Horford has proven that he can be very successful playing the C spot. Just look at his insane stats in December for proof. There are what, 3 or 4 centers in the league that have the offensive skill to abuse Horford on that end? The problem with most of these guys is they are slow-footed and Al abuses them on the other end so it evens out.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Let's see things this way:
- we can wait for a year, until Antic and Millsap probably are gone. Then Horford will be 29 (as he is celebrating his 28th birthday in 5 days from now) and probably he will be already too banged up to extend his career to those limits when some players arrive but taking care of themselves, not suffering injuries or playing in a more confortable position (Aldridge, Duncan).
- we can wait for Nogueira's developement and then switch Horford to the 4. Same scenario.
- we can get a real C now and keep Millsap for this season, then see what we and what he wants, depending on how much he played, and what plans we have.

I am not asking for a star caliber center (or yes if we can get Monroe), but just for a player who can defend the post, block some shots, play 32-36 minutes and may be open the court for Al toplay downlow against weaker opponnets at PF.

So you want to tie up cap on a marginal player when 2015's free agent class is going to be one for the ages? Doesn't make much sense to me.

[Baller2014]

This is where you are 100% incorrect. Smith, Monroe and Drummond all cannot make a basket outside of 10 ft. This kills the spacing for Detroit. Horford and Milsap are both above average midrange shooters and Milsap has proven that he can hit the 3. Besides, I said minimal minutes where Milsap, Horford and a C were all on the court at the same time. Either way, it would work much better with our group than it would with the Pistons due to spacing and having more versatile big men on offense.

How can you overlook this?

I totally agree with what you said about Detroit, their spacing does indeed kill them. That's not the reason these rotations don't work in real life. They don't work in real life because coaches don't rotate guys with the goal of "play these 3 guys equal minutes", they rotate them to win. So for instance, 8 minutes into the game the coach wants to give his starters a breather, and put in his bench to close the quarter. Leaving Horford in, just so that the minutes will end up equal at the end of the game, isn't conducive to that goal, or winning games in a lot of instances. Similarly, a coach may want to go small when the pace of the game dictates it, like Pop (who coaches much the same as Bud) often does. That's less minutes for Asik too. The coaches have to be free to make decisions to win games, and those decisions rarely allow the theoretical "even distribution" of minutes that fans speculate could happen.

Usually the coach has a clear delineation of "starters" and "bench" and they mix and match them in a limited way based on what suits any given game. It took Pop a while to come on board giving Splitter minutes (he had to earn them first), but even now that he has done so the guy gets 22mpg. That's what it's realistic for Asik to get in a 3 man big rotation (with a little of other bigs sprinkled in). Maybe a touch higher, but the idea all 3 of them can average 32-36 mpg is a fantasy. Can you think of any/many situations where that's happened in the past in a 3 big rotation?

[ATLHawksfan21]

This is where you are 100% incorrect. Smith, Monroe and Drummond all cannot make a basket outside of 10 ft. This kills the spacing for Detroit. Horford and Milsap are both above average midrange shooters and Milsap has proven that he can hit the 3. Besides, I said minimal minutes where Milsap, Horford and a C were all on the court at the same time. Either way, it would work much better with our group than it would with the Pistons due to spacing and having more versatile big men on offense.

How can you overlook this?

I totally agree with what you said about Detroit, their spacing does indeed kill them. That's not the reason these rotations don't work in real life. They don't work in real life because coaches don't rotate guys with the goal of "play these 3 guys equal minutes", they rotate them to win. So for instance, 8 minutes into the game the coach wants to give his starters a breather, and put in his bench to close the quarter. Leaving Horford in, just so that the minutes will end up equal at the end of the game, isn't conducive to that goal, or winning games in a lot of instances. Similarly, a coach may want to go small when the pace of the game dictates it, like Pop (who coaches much the same as Bud) often does. That's less minutes for Asik too. The coaches have to be free to make decisions to win games, and those decisions rarely allow the theoretical "even distribution" of minutes that fans speculate could happen.

Usually the coach has a clear delineation of "starters" and "bench" and they mix and match them in a limited way based on what suits any given game. It took Pop a while to come on board giving Splitter minutes (he had to earn them first), but even now that he has done so the guy gets 22mpg. That's what it's realistic for Asik to get in a 3 man big rotation (with a little of other bigs sprinkled in). Maybe a touch higher, but the idea all 3 of them can average 32-36 mpg is a fantasy. Can you think of any/many situations where that's happened in the past in a 3 big rotation?

Who said anything about even minutes? Horford and Milsap are our horses and we have Bud. Bud isn't just an average coach. I highly doubt that he would fall in some trap of I must play this guy so many minutes. The only bench player he seemed to fall in love with this year was Lou Will and I think he was just trying to give him as much minutes as possible to try and get his game back to form.

I also want no part of Asik. He's too one-dimensional of a player for my tastes. Our system requires all 5 players on the court to be competent on the offensive side of the ball and he isn't. His contract is downright absurd as well.

It seemed to work just fine for the Lakers. The trio of Gasol/Bynum/Odom won them 2 titles and 3 Finals appearances. That's what happens when you have versatile big men who all complement each other instead of the lame Detroit trio that all do near the same thing.

[Baller2014]

Well that's the point I was making that you responded to... that an even minute distribution (or anything really like one) is not going to happen with a 3 big rotation of Milsap, Horford and Asik.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Well that's the point I was making that you responded to... that an even minute distribution (or anything really like one) is not going to happen with a 3 big rotation of Milsap, Horford and Asik.

but I didn't say anything about minute distribution. I said that using the Pistons was a bad example bc the playing styles of their 3 are too similar. None of them can consistently hit a mid-range or 3 pt shot.

[Baller2014]

Then you're responding to someone else's point, not mine, because you can clearly see I didn't say Asik couldn't work on this team, I said if you could add him for free it'd be great. I just warned that playing them 32-36 mpg won't work, one of them (or more) will lose out in terms of minutes.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Then you're responding to someone else's point, not mine, because you can clearly see I didn't say Asik couldn't work on this team, I said if you could add him for free it'd be great. I just warned that playing them 32-36 mpg won't work, one of them (or more) will lose out in terms of minutes.

You quoted my post first? The Center would lose out. Horford and Milsap are the workhorses unless it's a star center being added and I highly doubt that happens this off-season since none are known to be available.

[Jamaaliver]

Except I'm not one who thinks that Horford should spend 0 time guarding Centers. Horford has proven that he can be very successful playing the C spot. Just look at his insane stats in December for proof. There are what, 3 or 4 centers in the league that have the offensive skill to abuse Horford on that end? The problem with most of these guys is they are slow-footed and Al abuses them on the other end so it evens out.

I'm not sure if this is true. Last post-season, Horford had modest numbers when playing Center vs Roy Hibbert. The team was shellacked as we allowed the Pacers over 100 ppg. We move AL to PF, start Petro at Center and immediately our offense improves, as does AL's production. We even managed to hold Indy well below 100 for 3 of the next 4 games.

Our only playoff series win of the last 4 years...saw AL playing PF with a scrub next to him at Center.

I see these as of more importance than some stretch playing sub-par competition in December.