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GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37)

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Re: GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37) 

Post#21 » by Jamaaliver » Sun Feb 1, 2015 5:12 am

Any one else concerned we haven't seemed as sharp overall for the last few games?

I know we are in the dog days of the season...but could we have peaked to early? Have teams started to figure us out a bit and close the gap? Or are we simply dismissing these less than stellar performances since we got the 'W'?
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Re: GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37) 

Post#22 » by Rip2137 » Sun Feb 1, 2015 5:41 am

I felt Jenkins looked great both offensively and defensively. He looks more comfortable handling the ball versus when he came in.

I wish he would have gotten more minutes with Teague at the point though. Alot of his time was spent standing around in the third watching Dennis dribble. And Dribble. And dribble some more.

Jamal, I just don't get what you are seeing. The offense obviously flows better when Dennis is not in the game. He made some huge shots tonight, but it doesn't take away the fact alot of our stagnation started with him going 1-1 for long stretches. I wish he would learn to take what the d gives him for the majority of the game. It's fine to go for the glory at the end of games, but busting the offense is not okay with me in the long run.

As for our "struggles" I think we are fine. We are having guys redefine roles on the fly right now due to some VERY important injuries. We are a deep team that could take a injury at any one position(except Center honestly). But taking 2 injuries to the same position...thats tough.
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Re: GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37) 

Post#23 » by JazzMatt13 » Sun Feb 1, 2015 6:47 am

Jamaaliver wrote:Any one else concerned we haven't seemed as sharp overall for the last few games?

I know we are in the dog days of the season...but could we have peaked to early? Have teams started to figure us out a bit and close the gap? Or are we simply dismissing these less than stellar performances since we got the 'W'?



Warriors peaked early. Which is why I hate how people take first half and make that define everything. No one ever looks at schedule strength, and Hawks have proven more so far than anyone. Spurs, Bulls, Warriors and Grizzlies have all slipped to Jazz, the Hawks didn't.

ATL have the 5th easiest schedule so far, but that is part of being in East, you get easy games to help get to big games. But get this, Warriors in West have 9th easiest schedule. So I am sure if I checked, they have faced less harder teams than Hawks. Last year no one cared that Jazz had hardest schedule for the first half of season, yet everyone paraded for Carter-Williams and his stats, even though they had one of easiest schedules, and everyone underestimated Burke, not to mention they ignored Gobert.

Hawks have had multiple road trips, your only weakness was home loss to Lakers, the Raptors and Bucks is understandable. The Warriors, had a few slips, road games against Jazz, Lakers and Suns. But their last two losses (Jazz and Bulls) poked a big hole in fact that if they can't shoot, they lose, cause they can't fight against energy when they don't have any. Hawks have energy wins, and could live if Korver was missing shots, 7 game series, Hawks come out.
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Re: GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37) 

Post#24 » by Romerowned » Sun Feb 1, 2015 7:34 am

This game was the only poor performance from the Hawks in a long time. The Portland game was fine. They are a tough opponent.
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Re: GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37) 

Post#25 » by theatlfan » Sun Feb 1, 2015 3:26 pm

I'm tipping my cap to PHI - they're growing. Still think they have maybe 4-5 legit NBA players (and 3-4 of those are still developing), but they played hard, shared the ball, believed in themselves, and didn't accept losing. They out assisted us and played excellent D most of the night. They've got a very good coach there.

Last time we played, I compared Noel to a FR on the varsity (talented enough to help, but needed to grow both physically and as a player) and he looks to have improved tremendously since. Still has a ways to go, but he's more involved on O and cut out the fouls 10' away from the basket. Grant was raining 3's on us but I don't expect that to be his game. Still thought he made an impact - I liked him in the draft though so I may be biased.

If I were to point to one reason we won, it'd be KJ McDaniel missing all those lay ups. I think he'll be a good player but it wasn't his night. Also don't see it with MCW - he's talented but his game <> the sum of its parts. Seems destined to be an empty stats guy. Honestly thought their O looked at its best when he was out and Drew ran the point.

For us, it was a good team effort. Lots of guys contributed and it's always nice to have a Jenkins sighting especially when he nearly goes for 2x digits. Still, Horford was our guy by default. While the rest of the team struggled against PHI athletic and swarming D, Horford treated Noel like a rookie even though he wasn't getting the calls especially late.

Having said that, I'm walking away from this game with more questions than answers. Without Demarre and Thabo, we looked decidely average tonight. Are we that reliant on a glue guy @ SF? Bazemore really stepped against PORT but was pretty average against PHI. While he was the only guy on our roster who looked able to match up athletically, he wasn't too efficient doing so. Korver seemed off his game lining up at the 3 and after 2 3's early, largely disappeared for the rest of the game. Further, I didn't think that Korver and Bazemore looked comfortable on the court together. Maybe they are both used to the 2? The Teague / Schröder lineup was bad. Teague looked confused off the ball and Schröder's passing simply isn't there yet. When he found the open guy, Schröder's ball placement was far from ideal especially on the move. Even when we switched to Teague controlling the ball, he didn't seem confident in the players on the floor and just looked to Horford. Between Millsap and Scott (when he's off, he can be really, really bad), we might have gotten less production out of the PF position in a decade - before Smoove. As noted, some of this should be a tribute to PHI. With those athletes on D, I'd imagine they can put a lot of teams off their game. I'm sure that some of it was due to us opening a 21 point lead and relaxing a bit. But some of it is on us too - hopefully it was more of a sign that we miss our injured players and we're playing guys out of position than something deeper though.

Can't end this post without mentioning the most confounding (or eye opening) thing that happened in the game though. On the play where Jenkins got the layup on the leak out there was a timeout immediately after. Jenkins (who actually made a nifty move for the bucket) and Schröder (who got the assist) were coming to the bench after congratulating each other on the court and met Coach Bud about 1/2-way to the bench. Coach Bud moved the clipboard to his left hand to give Schröder a low five / shake and ignored Jenkins. Even when Schröder and Jenkins turned around and came back to Coach Bud to form the "huddle" around the coach, there didn't appear to be eye contact between Jenkins and Bud. I even rewound it and asked my wife to watch it and she came to the same conclusion. I should note that this was Jenkins' last bucket and I think our largest lead of the game. That situation looks like it could be toxic and is really a credit to Jenkins, as well as the team as a whole, that it isn't.
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Re: GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37) 

Post#26 » by Jamaaliver » Sun Feb 1, 2015 5:48 pm

theatlfan wrote:Coach Bud moved the clipboard to his left hand to give Schröder a low five / shake and ignored Jenkins. Even when Schröder and Jenkins turned around and came back to Coach Bud to form the "huddle" around the coach, there didn't appear to be eye contact between Jenkins and Bud...

That situation looks like it could be toxic and is really a credit to Jenkins, as well as the team as a whole, that it isn't.


Yeah, Jenkins has been serviceable enough throughout the entire season (pre-season, training camp, regular season) to at least have warranted more time with the big league club. There's been speculation that it must be something else behind the scenes with these two. This just kind of confirms that it's not JJ2's play that has him on the outs. It's a poor relationship with coach.

I commend JJ (and Bud) for not letting it become more public and for JJ being ready to play when called upon.

Rip2137 wrote:Jamaal, I just don't get what you are seeing. The offense obviously flows better when Dennis is not in the game.


I will concede that DS has more growth to do. (A by product from playing so little as a rookie during our losing season.) But the natural talent is there. The confidence is there. He can learn to trust in the offense more. He can't simply learn to be talented.

I simply see a very talented player at only age 21. When he gets to be 24, at the start of his physical prime, he has the potential to be one of the best two-way Guards in the league. He does need more discipline in the offense and more experience. This is one of the reasons I've been begging for us to get a veteran PG on the bench to help counsel the young kid. Whether it's here or elsewhere, that young man has undeniable god-given talent. It just needs to be harnessed.
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Re: GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37) 

Post#27 » by Rip2137 » Sun Feb 1, 2015 10:17 pm

While I disagree with him being one of the best at anything in three years, I can respect that opinion. But that a big difference between "ready to take over now" and " in three years he could be one of the best". He is a significant downgrade over our current starter and our record would be significantly worse with him running the show and we would be no where near a contending team. None of that screams "ready". I personally think a scoring guard off the bench is his ceiling as his passing skills and vision are simply below average for a point guard, but good enough for a scoring point. Like I have mentioned before, players don't suddenly gain vision...wither you have it or not. You can't teach size, athleticism or vision...just how it is.
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Re: GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37) 

Post#28 » by theatlfan » Sun Feb 1, 2015 10:50 pm

Rip2137 wrote:While I disagree with him being one of the best at anything in three years, I can respect that opinion. But that a big difference between "ready to take over now" and " in three years he could be one of the best". He is a significant downgrade over our current starter and our record would be significantly worse with him running the show and we would be no where near a contending team. None of that screams "ready". I personally think a scoring guard off the bench is his ceiling as his passing skills and vision are simply below average for a point guard, but good enough for a scoring point. Like I have mentioned before, players don't suddenly gain vision...wither you have it or not. You can't teach size, athleticism or vision...just how it is.

In his defense, I think that Schröder's vision is better now than Teague's was coming out of Wake.
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Re: GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37) 

Post#29 » by xccelerate » Sun Feb 1, 2015 11:13 pm

I agree with Rip2137. Schröder likes to dribble and go 1 vs 1 a bit too much.

Also, has anyone noticed that Al has gone away from his post game recently? And when he does go to it, he's missed. Hard to knock him when his shooting is on point but still...
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Re: GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37) 

Post#30 » by Jamaaliver » Mon Feb 2, 2015 12:11 am

theatlfan wrote:In his defense, I think that Schröder's vision is better now than Teague's was coming out of Wake.


BINGO!!!

It's easy to forget that JT0 came out of college with a reputation as a scoring PG, not as a playmaker/distributor. I see DS and see him as much further along than Teague was at a similar point.

NBADRaft.NET's scouting report on Teague coming out of college:

NBA Comparison: Kevin Johnson

Strengths: An extremely quick and explosive guard … A natural scorer, plays at full throttle the entire game, constantly putting pressure on the defense...

Weaknesses: He is not a pure PG, even though he has good vision and decent ability to deliver the ball, he lacks the mentality of a playmaker ...His Assist to TO ratio is almost 1/1 for his career, directly speaking on his inability to read the action and make correct plays


Draftexpress.com's scouting report on Jeff Teague coming out of college:

STRENGTHS:
- Ability to get to free throw line
- Go-to scoring mentality
- Scoring instincts
- Transition play
- Ability to create own shot
- Aggressive slashing mentality

WEAKNESSES:
- Ability to play at different speeds
- Decision making
- Not a true point guard


Teague has come a long way since his rookie year. And what we see now is (IMO) the finished product. DS is already ahead of the 21 year old, second year iteration of Jeff Teague and has proven productive when given extensive minutes.
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Re: GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37) 

Post#31 » by Rip2137 » Mon Feb 2, 2015 1:46 am

Dennis Schroder is in no way shape or form a better playmaker than Jeff Teague was as a rookie let alone as a 2nd year player. And there is nothing anyone can pull up to prove it. in per 36, per 100 possessions, literally every stat to grade a point guard, Teague was better by a comfortable margin since he first stepped in the NBA. Schroder is showing he might be a step ahead of Teague as a 1-1 offensive player with his better fouls drawn numbers and such, but when it comes to actual playmaking the stats are right there to show you Schroder was in no way better at any aspect of basketball.

The fact that Schroder resembles Rondos body size is the SINGLUAR reason the two are compared. And for some reason its making you guys think a guy that is averaging over 5 turnovers per 100 possessions is further along as a playmaker than a guy that was averaging 3.6 per 100 at the same stage in his career. Just as a point of reference, Chris Paul was around 3.6 per 100 and Rajon Rondo was around 3.9 at the same time.
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Re: GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37) 

Post#32 » by ATL Boy » Mon Feb 2, 2015 4:36 am

xccelerate wrote:I agree with Rip2137. Schröder likes to dribble and go 1 vs 1 a bit too much.

Also, has anyone noticed that Al has gone away from his post game recently? And when he does go to it, he's missed. Hard to knock him when his shooting is on point but still...

I think he's just doing what's working for him now, which is shooting that midrange shot. If and when that stops working he'll probably go back to that post game.
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Re: GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37) 

Post#33 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Mon Feb 2, 2015 4:19 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
theatlfan wrote:In his defense, I think that Schröder's vision is better now than Teague's was coming out of Wake.


BINGO!!!

It's easy to forget that JT0 came out of college with a reputation as a scoring PG, not as a playmaker/distributor. I see DS and see him as much further along than Teague was at a similar point.


Teague has come a long way since his rookie year. And what we see now is (IMO) the finished product. DS is already ahead of the 21 year old, second year iteration of Jeff Teague and has proven productive when given extensive minutes.



You had Teague penned as a finished product two years ago. Why would you continue to try to predict his potential for growth when your prior track record has been so poor?
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Re: GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37) 

Post#34 » by theatlfan » Mon Feb 2, 2015 6:35 pm

Rip2137 wrote:Dennis Schroder is in no way shape or form a better playmaker than Jeff Teague was as a rookie let alone as a 2nd year player. And there is nothing anyone can pull up to prove it. in per 36, per 100 possessions, literally every stat to grade a point guard, Teague was better by a comfortable margin since he first stepped in the NBA. Schroder is showing he might be a step ahead of Teague as a 1-1 offensive player with his better fouls drawn numbers and such, but when it comes to actual playmaking the stats are right there to show you Schroder was in no way better at any aspect of basketball.

The fact that Schroder resembles Rondos body size is the SINGLUAR reason the two are compared. And for some reason its making you guys think a guy that is averaging over 5 turnovers per 100 possessions is further along as a playmaker than a guy that was averaging 3.6 per 100 at the same stage in his career. Just as a point of reference, Chris Paul was around 3.6 per 100 and Rajon Rondo was around 3.9 at the same time.

Not sure why you'd think this. Scouting report agree that Schröder was thought to be a better passer as an amateur, and Dennis has had comparable or better passing numbers as a pro over the 1st 2 seasons. Memory fades, but I do seem to remember that Teague was generally deployed as the backup PG and was basically unopposed in garbage time minutes while Schröder has gotten time in other positions and shared the garbage time minutes with Mack. Don't get me wrong: I think the development of Teague has been a bright spot in the careers of both LD and Coach Bud and his play this season is definitely AS worthy and a major reason why a team that many thought would still hit the 2nd round out glass ceiling is proving doubters (including me) wrong. Just that in his 1st two seasons, I think those who saw what he'd become were fewer and further between than those who can see the raw potential in Schröder.
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Re: GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37) 

Post#35 » by Rip2137 » Mon Feb 2, 2015 7:42 pm

I think that because I am watching how below average a playmaker Schroder is and his numbers show that. There were QUESTIONS to if Teague could be a playmaker, and his stats showed that he could. Again, I'm fine if people want to believe that Schroder is going to become a consistent and above average playmaker, but I am not fine with people pretending he is ahead of the Teague curve when everyone is free to check out the advanced stats to see that's not true. I can care less what scouts say, because, again, they saw a guy built like Rondo that throws flashy passes(in between alot of turnovers and passes to peoples ankles and over dribbling) and said "He is going to be a great playmaker." I will be happy to be wrong, but while others see "star" I see Lou Williams with defense as his ceiling.
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Re: GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37) 

Post#36 » by Jamaaliver » Tue Feb 3, 2015 3:10 am

ATLHawksfan21 wrote:You had Teague penned as a finished product two years ago. Why would you continue to try to predict his potential for growth when your prior track record has been so poor?


I'm not so sure my track record is quite as bad as you like to think. But I've noticed you have a really consistent tendency to play both sides of an argument and then take credit for being right...even when you contradict yourself in the process:

ATLHawksfan21 wrote:I don't see Ferry matching this one. Too many years and too many dollars when we just picked up Schroeder in the draft. I would rather sign Jennings on a 2 year deal and give Schroeder time to develop than invest 32 million in Teague over 4 years.
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ATLHawksfan21 wrote:Teague consistent? He has way too many games where he just cowers in the corner and looks like he doesn't even care to be on the court. He seems to lack confidence at times...I would much rather have a guy like Jennings, with supreme confidence, than a guy like Teague who can disappear in games.
Here

Teague's advanced stats have indeed improved, but I credit the improved offensive system, better more unselfish teammates, no Josh Smith as much as his undeniable growth. But the kid is a 17 & 7 guy. This 'best season of his life' isn't drastically better than the last couple of seasons under Bud and Drew. He's at his pinnacle right now...

I expected him to step up his game last year after AL went down and we needed him. What I've seen since then is that he is able to do it for short stretches, but over the long haul..he always comes down to earth and ereverts back to 17 & 7 Teague. An above average PG in a league filled with above average PGs.
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Re: GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37) 

Post#37 » by Rip2137 » Tue Feb 3, 2015 4:49 pm

But using the "better offensive system" argument, should Dennis have better numbers than Teague at this stage of his career? He doesn't. Not even close. I just don't see how you can say Schroder is further along than Teague as a playmaker at the same points in their career. He is clearly behind.
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Re: GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37) 

Post#38 » by Jamaaliver » Tue Feb 3, 2015 5:46 pm

Rip2137 wrote:I just don't see how you can say Schroder is further along than Teague as a playmaker at the same points in their career. He is clearly behind.

Rip2137 wrote:Dennis Schroder is in no way shape or form a better playmaker than Jeff Teague was as a rookie let alone as a 2nd year player.

Rip2137 wrote:Jamal, I just don't get what you are seeing.


I simply, respectfully, disagree.
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Re: GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37) 

Post#39 » by xccelerate » Wed Feb 4, 2015 2:23 am

Jamaaliver wrote:I simply, respectfully, disagree.



I think Jamaal is right on this one. Although I'm a Teague over Dennis guy, Teague was pretty iffy his first couple of years because Larry Drew didn't want to play him. There were worries of bust on him early just like Dennis last year. Difference has been that Teague's label lasted longer. It wasn't until Joe left that Teague established himself as a capable starting point guard.
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Re: GT: Hawks (39-8) vs 76ers (10-37) 

Post#40 » by Rip2137 » Wed Feb 4, 2015 5:58 am

The argument isn't of Schroder is getting more minutes in his second year. The point people tried to make is that he is further along as a playmaker which, through unarguable statistics isn't true. Dennis Schroder turns the ball over at a very high rate and doesn't move the ball very well at all. Last year he turned the ball over at a high rate and doesn't move the ball over very well at all. Say what you want about Teague's first few years, he NEVER had that problem. Teague has gotten better(clearly) but was never as bad a playmaker as Dennis is right now. Dennis is ahead as a offensive scorer, though, clearly. My only point is that of he magically learns to be a playmaker, he will be the first player I have ever seen that was able to do it. People were always convinced that guys like Steve Francis and Lou Williams would learn to be playmakers. It just never happens. Either you are one or you aren't.

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