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Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick

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Re: Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick 

Post#81 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:45 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:I can't fathom how much the narrative has changed in just a few months. It is mind boggling how different your perspectives are.

I will respectfully disagree. but I urge you to go back and re-read through your own words and the thoughts of other posters from July on. Get a feel for what the hopes, concerns and expectations were. I think you'll be surprised.

I go on record as saying that I am concerned that three out of four last 1st round picks bore no fruit for the team. Not even as backup caliber players. I think that could have an adverse effect on the organization. After Teague in 2009, only a single first round talent seems worthwhile. And he, sadly, plays the exact same position as Teague.



What has changed about my perspective?

In the off-season, I was the most confident in this team's ability and Teague's development and I still am. I was fine with the Lou Will trade and I still am. I didn't really know anything about Payne and I trust Bud enough to be fine with him trading him.

Our front office have missed on some first rounders while doing well in the 2nd round. They have also been elite in free agency during this time. Sure, it would be nice to be perfect, but you also have to be realistic and realize that no one is perfect.
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Re: Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick 

Post#82 » by PandaKidd » Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:59 pm

Again, goes back to my original point:

They gave up on a 1st round pick when they could lose 3 Front Court people this offseason because A) He did something they didnt like or B) They are terrible at scouting and developing talent (Draft wise)
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Re: Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick 

Post#83 » by PandaKidd » Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:02 pm

ATLHawksfan21 wrote:
PandaKidd wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:I can't fathom how much the narrative has changed in just a few months. It is mind boggling how different your perspectives are.

I will respectfully disagree. but I urge you to go back and re-read through your own words and the thoughts of other posters from July on. Get a feel for what the hopes, concerns and expectations were. I think you'll be surprised.

I go on record as saying that I am concerned that three out of four last 1st round picks bore no fruit for the team. Not even as backup caliber players. I think that could have an adverse effect on the organization. After Teague in 2009, only a single first round talent seems worthwhile. And he, sadly, plays the exact same position as Teague.

typical Hawks fans I suppose, overreacting one second ready to never watch the team again, then completely going the other way when they win 19 games in a row and start talking ECF and Finals appearances.

Shortsighted.

LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE. Anyone who thinks throwing away 1st round picks is viable , when all you get in return is Cap Space and hopes and dreams of signing someone else is just playing dumb.



Talk about making up facts to fit your argument. In this post, you make it sound like we gave up Payne for nothing in return. You also make it sound like the sole reason of trading Payne is to conserve cap or possibly sign someone else.

Your whole post was inaccurately formed to fit your argument.

I wasnt talking to you i was speaking to the guy who claimed we traded lou to sign Scott and others. That was factually incorrect.

We gave up Payne for NOTHING, we got SOME cap space (lets see who we sign) and a future 1st that COULD be a 2nd. If we sign Nobody, get bounced in the second round, YES we will have traded a young asset for NOTHING.

There was NO REASON to trade Payne, NONE, he doesnt play and he wasnt taking up a roster spot we needed. UNLESS we think Thabo is so hurt we need another wing which is yet to be seen.

IF we sign NO ONE, we will have traded him for the same or worse position in the draft. That is the definition of NOTHING
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Re: Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick 

Post#84 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:30 pm

PandaKidd wrote:
ATLHawksfan21 wrote:
PandaKidd wrote:typical Hawks fans I suppose, overreacting one second ready to never watch the team again, then completely going the other way when they win 19 games in a row and start talking ECF and Finals appearances.

Shortsighted.

LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE. Anyone who thinks throwing away 1st round picks is viable , when all you get in return is Cap Space and hopes and dreams of signing someone else is just playing dumb.



Talk about making up facts to fit your argument. In this post, you make it sound like we gave up Payne for nothing in return. You also make it sound like the sole reason of trading Payne is to conserve cap or possibly sign someone else.

Your whole post was inaccurately formed to fit your argument.

I wasnt talking to you i was speaking to the guy who claimed we traded lou to sign Scott and others. That was factually incorrect.

We gave up Payne for NOTHING, we got SOME cap space (lets see who we sign) and a future 1st that COULD be a 2nd. If we sign Nobody, get bounced in the second round, YES we will have traded a young asset for NOTHING.

There was NO REASON to trade Payne, NONE, he doesnt play and he wasnt taking up a roster spot we needed. UNLESS we think Thabo is so hurt we need another wing which is yet to be seen.

IF we sign NO ONE, we will have traded him for the same or worse position in the draft. That is the definition of NOTHING


I think we have to assume that Bud had little to no confidence in Payne's ability to perform well either in the pros all together or in Bud's system. If this is the case, it's best to get rid of the player as soon as possible while they still hold value. Payne is still an unknown which allowed Bud to trade him for a hopeful 1st round pick. Like Jenkins, his value would decrease with each passing year that he is stuck on the bench.
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Re: Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick 

Post#85 » by PandaKidd » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:33 pm

1000% AGREED, but it doesnt trouble you in the least that in 6 months, we deemed our first round draft pick a bust? Does that give you confidence in the regime? Im not talking Bud speciically, im talking the

ENTIRE college scouting department, GM, etc
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Re: Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick 

Post#86 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:19 pm

PandaKidd wrote:1000% AGREED, but it doesnt trouble you in the least that in 6 months, we deemed our first round draft pick a bust? Does that give you confidence in the regime? Im not talking Bud speciically, im talking the

ENTIRE college scouting department, GM, etc


I see a positive and negative from this trade. The negative is that we once again made a bad 1st round selection. The positive is that our front office has enough sense to cut ties with that bad pick as soon as they recognize it to be such. Most front offices will stick by that pick for as long as they can and will end up getting nothing in return. At least we were able to get a hopeful 1st rounder in return. It's not like Minny is going to go from not making the playoffs to the 3rd seed over night. If they do make the playoffs during that span, the pick will likely be from 15-20 and there will be little to no value lost.

You also have to look at the type of picks we have been making. They have chosen to lean towards the potential heavy players instead of the more consistent contributors. Guys like Schroder, Bebe and Tavares are boom or bust guys. They are more likely to bust than other players, but if they do break out, their ceiling can be higher than the others. I like the fact that we take chances on high potential players instead of sticking with the safe route all the time. We just have to keep in mind that taking this route will lead to some wasted picks.

I would love for us to be able to hit on every pick but it just doesn't work like that. I'm happy if we can grab 1 keeper in each draft. So far, out of 3 years, we have found 2 keepers in Schroder and Scott. Jenkins, Payne and Bebe can be classified as busts. Patterson and Muscala seem MEH while I am excited about Tavares and we have a future hopeful 1st. I can honestly say that I will be happy with the first 3 years of Ferry's drafting if Tavares turns in to a quality player for us. I don't really follow college ball so I go in to the draft blind and just hope for the best when I hear a guy's name called for the Hawks.

I will be more than happy to excuse their prior mistakes if they find a keeper with our likely lottery pick this season. With out adding in the stipulation for the right to switch picks, we would have a bottom 3 pick this year. We are now probably going to end up with the 8-12 pick with a chance to get top 3. That is huge and it could land us a difference maker.

Ferry's impeccable free agency record quickly eases the pain of his misses on draft day. Our front office has been almost perfect when it comes to free agency. The only negative thing I could say is they have failed to lure a bigger name. I see that as more of a "the Hawks are seen as a bad franchise" problem more so than a Ferry/current front office problem. I think the rash of injuries really played a role in this happening last off-season and I expect us to have better luck from here on out.
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Re: Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick 

Post#87 » by atlantabbq99 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:17 pm

PandaKidd wrote:
atlantabbq99 wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:

Ummm...the overall consensus on the board in the months following the Bebe trade is that it was not particularly beneficial. We traded assets for cap space...and then didn't use the cap space.


This is just stupid. Salmons was waived so that the Hawks could sign Thabo, Baz, and Scott :crazy:

you cant argue with people who make up things to fit their argument.

:banghead:


Ya i know, i'm just glad these people are a few and not many on this board, but we still have to deal with them.
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Re: Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick 

Post#88 » by Hawk Eye » Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:17 am

What is going to be the overall consensus on this board about this trade if we don't even end up using our open roster spot? If that happens, I for one will be very upset. That will mean that our FO clearly doesn't know how to draft or evaluate talent which raises a massive red flag going forward.
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Re: Re: Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick 

Post#89 » by simon24 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:30 am

uga_dawgs24 wrote:
simon24 wrote:I'm not a fan of the trade. I guess Thabo is worse than what is being reported and they couldn't bring Patterson over early like they did Muscula last season.

Minnesota couldn't even be in the hunt for the 8th seed when they had Kevin Love. The West is stacked so I guess this will be a 2nd round pick in the future.

I see they say Tavares is coming over next year but he's not a PF, he's a C, the deepest position on the Hawks. All I can say is I hope Millsap resigns this summer otherwise this trade is going to blow up in their face.


Center is by far the weakest position. We have no true backup. At least with a pf Scott can play. Pero is horrible and Brand is just a body now.


Antic and Brand are two of the best back up centers in the league. Antic is a high IQ center who uses his smarts and shooting ability to stand out. Brand is one of the best post defenders against centers plus he still got a jump shot.
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Re: Re: Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick 

Post#90 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:11 pm

PMOTT3 wrote:What is going to be the overall consensus on this board about this trade if we don't even end up using our open roster spot? If that happens, I for one will be very upset. That will mean that our FO clearly doesn't know how to draft or evaluate talent which raises a massive red flag going forward.


Well thats quite the overreaction.

Horford is the only player who wasn't signed by our current front office and we are having the best season in the history of the franchise. They have been elite at evaluating talent.

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Re: Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick 

Post#91 » by theatlfan » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:02 pm

PMOTT3 wrote:What is going to be the overall consensus on this board about this trade if we don't even end up using our open roster spot? If that happens, I for one will be very upset. That will mean that our FO clearly doesn't know how to draft or evaluate talent which raises a massive red flag going forward.
I'm not going to care either way. We dumped Payne and got OK value from the deal - that's how I'll view the deal regardless of what happens with the roster spot.

I agree that the draft record is worrisome but we're also talking about an exceedingly SSS here too. Still, I'd swallow 2-3 tragic busts for 2 home runs like Schröder. So as long as the BRK pick this year is a home run, then meh, I ain't worried about the Payne / Bebe failures.
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Re: Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick 

Post#92 » by jagstang76 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:27 pm

I've been follow the conversation and I honestly agree with both sides. It bothers me that we have had such a poor record on our 1st round picks. To clarify that, it's sad that some of them have been virtually worthless in that we haven't seen any significant return on them. Jenkins hasn't sniffed the lineup. Bebe was traded before he had a chance. And now Payne traded just 6 months after we picked him! So that tells me we are dealing one of two issues: either we really suck at drafting or we're using them as a means to manage the roster and get the vets we want. I personally think it's more of the second, but that is still disconcerting because we can't afford to draft players that won't have a chance of being good for us. Now that I think about it, Bebe made absolutely no sense for this team because he wasn't a threat to even shoot. So we trade him in a deal that helps us offload Lou. It makes sense to trade him instead of a future pick because we open a roster spot and allows us the chance to draft again next year. My question then becomes did we draft him strictly for that purpose because of his general ability being so attractive? Payne at least looked like he'd be a fit with his ability to shoot. So, it doesn't compute that we'd let him go before seeing him develop. It makes me wonder are we just stuck between regimes with Ferry on the way out and Bud addressing things according to his perspective. It's at a minimum a very awkward way to do things. I'm grateful that they have hit home runs with their FAs. They may very well be in the right to get the best player available if they don't see a good fit for the value of the pick but with the intention of using them as trade bait at the right opportunity. It may be that Payne was the type of player they wanted with the pick, but then once they got to see him more closely they realized it was a mistake. Then they revert back to the other strategy to make the most of the pick. It makes sense in order to maximize the value of the picks, but I wish we could get more out of the picks when we decide to move them. So we are probably looking at both sides of the coin in this situation.
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Re: Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick 

Post#93 » by PandaKidd » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:38 pm

theatlfan wrote:
PMOTT3 wrote:What is going to be the overall consensus on this board about this trade if we don't even end up using our open roster spot? If that happens, I for one will be very upset. That will mean that our FO clearly doesn't know how to draft or evaluate talent which raises a massive red flag going forward.
I'm not going to care either way. We dumped Payne and got OK value from the deal - that's how I'll view the deal regardless of what happens with the roster spot.

I agree that the draft record is worrisome but we're also talking about an exceedingly SSS here too. Still, I'd swallow 2-3 tragic busts for 2 home runs like Schröder. So as long as the BRK pick this year is a home run, then meh, I ain't worried about the Payne / Bebe failures.

I think, like the Bebe trade, we have to see what happens.

If Payne emerges as a 10/10(OR BETTER) guy, and we dont sign anyone before thursday, then, F-

If Payne never plays or is a Bust - A+

If Payne is a 10/10 guy , but we sign (Insert FA Signee here) and win a Chip - A+

If Payne is a 10/10 guy, but our draft pick from MINNY in 3 years ends up being an even better player, A+

There are MORE positive scenarios, I admit, but Im also a glass is half empty person at heart, so, I feel like it was kind of quick to give up on Payne, unless there is something we dont know. Health problems, low IQ, etc all trumps this I suppose
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Re: Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick 

Post#94 » by PandaKidd » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:40 pm

atlantabbq99 wrote:
PandaKidd wrote:
atlantabbq99 wrote:
This is just stupid. Salmons was waived so that the Hawks could sign Thabo, Baz, and Scott :crazy:

you cant argue with people who make up things to fit their argument.

:banghead:


Ya i know, i'm just glad these people are a few and not many on this board, but we still have to deal with them.

We didnt trade Lou and BEBE to sign the people you said. You were incorrect, IE making up things to fit your argument :)
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Re: Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick 

Post#95 » by StunnaStan » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:04 pm

i have a trade for the hawks

Atl receives: anybody on the nuggets roster
Den receives: brooklyns draft pick

whadya think
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Re: Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick 

Post#96 » by StunnaStan » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:05 pm

1 pick for any 2 players
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Re: Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick 

Post#97 » by PandaKidd » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:11 pm

Id like to pry Tayshaun Prince away from Boston for like a 2nd rounder or something really really cheap
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Re: Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick 

Post#98 » by Hawk Eye » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:52 pm

StunnaStan wrote:i have a trade for the hawks

Atl receives: anybody on the nuggets roster
Den receives: brooklyns draft pick

whadya think


No thanks.

I'm not willing to trade our right to swap 1sts with BRK unless it's a clear cut overpay. That pick still has a lot of potential with the 9-12 seeds in the east all being within 1-3 losses of each other.
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Re: Re: Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick 

Post#99 » by dms269 » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:49 pm

simon24 wrote:
uga_dawgs24 wrote:
simon24 wrote:I'm not a fan of the trade. I guess Thabo is worse than what is being reported and they couldn't bring Patterson over early like they did Muscula last season.

Minnesota couldn't even be in the hunt for the 8th seed when they had Kevin Love. The West is stacked so I guess this will be a 2nd round pick in the future.

I see they say Tavares is coming over next year but he's not a PF, he's a C, the deepest position on the Hawks. All I can say is I hope Millsap resigns this summer otherwise this trade is going to blow up in their face.


Center is by far the weakest position. We have no true backup. At least with a pf Scott can play. Pero is horrible and Brand is just a body now.


Antic and Brand are two of the best back up centers in the league. Antic is a high IQ center who uses his smarts and shooting ability to stand out. Brand is one of the best post defenders against centers plus he still got a jump shot.


Shooting ability? Last 10 of .231 fg% isn't great. Teams have started figuring out he can't shoot and are giving him the space so he can't hit is consistently. While Brand is good defensively, his size limits what he can do. Teams with solid bigs will destroy us in the playoffs.
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Re: Re: Adreian Payne traded to Minnesota for 2017 First Round pick 

Post#100 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:28 pm

uga_dawgs24 wrote:
simon24 wrote:
uga_dawgs24 wrote:
Center is by far the weakest position. We have no true backup. At least with a pf Scott can play. Pero is horrible and Brand is just a body now.


Antic and Brand are two of the best back up centers in the league. Antic is a high IQ center who uses his smarts and shooting ability to stand out. Brand is one of the best post defenders against centers plus he still got a jump shot.


Shooting ability? Last 10 of .231 fg% isn't great. Teams have started figuring out he can't shoot and are giving him the space so he can't hit is consistently. While Brand is good defensively, his size limits what he can do. Teams with solid bigs will destroy us in the playoffs.


and which teams are these?

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