ImageImage

Hawks offense as evolution to modern defenses

Moderators: dms269, Jamaaliver, HMFFL

User avatar
Hawk Eye
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 7,819
And1: 2,071
Joined: May 28, 2014

Re: Hawks offense as evolution to modern defenses 

Post#21 » by Hawk Eye » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:52 pm

LBJ hasn't lost a playoff series in the east since 2010...
ATLHawksfan21
Starter
Posts: 2,134
And1: 491
Joined: Jul 10, 2012

Re: 

Post#22 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:57 pm

PandaKidd wrote:I think you guys are going on the first half cavs. Did you see LBJ Thursday night? He looks like the old LBJ who drives the lane and muscles his way to 42 POINTS against the top ranked defense in the league.....

KI had 20+ points.

Don't count love out despite his struggles.

Can't compare the heat teams to this team because we don't know yet. This cavs team has more talent than the first iteration of that heat team. This cavs team is BETTER than last years Heat team.

Whatever we can play what ifs all day. Fact is if this hawks team played CLE tomorrow in a 7 game series CLE would be overwhelming favorite. That's all I said.

That and they scare me.


I've seen Lebron come up short in the playoffs too many times to consider him to be some unbeatable GOD like Jordan. Lebron is a frontrunner. Apply pressure and watch him shrink. We have a team that can make it happen.

Do you honestly believe that this Cavs team has more talent than the 2 Heat title teams? Wade is a top 3 SG of all-time. Bosh is a far better running mate to Lebron than Love will ever be. They had a legit big 3. Wade and Bosh were great defenders while also being good/great offensive players. The Cavs don't have that. Irving and Love are below average defenders and they have no playoff experience. No winning experience.
User avatar
PandaKidd
Analyst
Posts: 3,356
And1: 636
Joined: Aug 22, 2012
     

 

Post#23 » by PandaKidd » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:02 pm

Did you read what I wrote? I said this years cavs team is better than last years heat team (finals but no ring) and is better than the first iteration of heat teams (also finals but no ring)

So, no, I didn't say they were better than the two title winning heat team. Not yet.

I guess you forget LBJ putting heat on HIS BACK and dropping 50 vs Boston. This notion that he shrinks in pressure situations is ESPN fueled bull.

He will destroy you, he's better than anyone on the planet and he can SINGLE handily take over a game.

Good news is Cavs are now #2 seed so we won't see them unless we make ECF. Let's hope it stays that way.
ATLHawksfan21
Starter
Posts: 2,134
And1: 491
Joined: Jul 10, 2012

Re: Hawks offense as evolution to modern defenses 

Post#24 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:15 pm

You said better than the first iteration of the Heat team. I read it as something different when skimming through the first time.

LBJ has come up big in the playoffs and he has shrunk. He was huge in that Pistons series when he scored like 21 straight to end the game. He was huge in the game and series that you mentioned.

He failed miserably in his last series as a Cav. That series vs Boston where it looked like he quit.

He failed miserably in the 2011 Finals when D Wade posted the highest PER in Finals history IIRC. Lebron didn't know how to react to Wade being the main guy and was terrible in the 4th quarters during that series. Lebron cost them that ring.

He was failing miserably in the last minutes of game 6 of the FInals 2 years ago before Ray made the big shot. He almost airballed a 3 and had two very bad unforced turnovers all within a minute span. He looked defeated. He turned around and played great in game 7.
User avatar
PandaKidd
Analyst
Posts: 3,356
And1: 636
Joined: Aug 22, 2012
     

 

Post#25 » by PandaKidd » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:40 pm

And hit the 3 previous to ray Allen and after his air ball.

People hate on LBJ , no one said he was Jordan. Or hell even Kobe.

But he's better than any Hawks player by a mile and he changes games by himself. Don't underestimate them.

March 6 will be a huge game
ATLHawksfan21
Starter
Posts: 2,134
And1: 491
Joined: Jul 10, 2012

Re: Hawks offense as evolution to modern defenses 

Post#26 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:52 pm

I'm not underestimating them. All I'm saying is we have a lot better shot at beating them than most people seem to think. Pass heavy team-oriented offenses have proven to be Lebron's kryptonite as his 3 Finals losses have come to the Spurs x2 and the Mavs.

March 6th will be big but I don't see it as a real predictor of a possible series result unless there is a blowout. Thabo will be huge for us in that series since he he has the ability to guard both Irving and Lebron.
User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 36,821
And1: 14,250
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: Hawks offense as evolution to modern defenses 

Post#27 » by Jamaaliver » Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:21 pm

Anyway....back to the original topic.

Our offense is based ball movement, movement away from the ball and utilizing off ball screens to get cutters and shooters open.

One of the best defensive adjustments I saw from a team that played us close was GSW's use of switching defenders. Their personnel (specifically Klay, Draymond and Iggy) has the ability to switch and guard multiple players without huge mismatch advantages. This method reduces the amount of space our players expect with defenders going over/under screens.

We do have the passing ability to hit cutters & screeners as they move toward the hoop, which is the second best counter measure against switching. (The first being to find a mismatch and let our scorers abuse them in isolation.) Overall, I see this as the most effective regular season defense against us.

Cleveland & Milwaukee both have the personnel to use this strategy against us in a playoff series. It's not something that can be used all-game every-game. But it definitely has the ability to force us to adjust our strategy over the course of a half or quarter.

Lebron on Teague is what really scares me. He won't take up the mantle for a whole game. But we've seen him clamp down on Rondo and Tony Parker for the 4th quarter of a tight contest and effectively smother opposing offenses. We don't have a secondary ballhandler in our starting five.

I expect we'll see this matchup quite a bit should we make it to face CLE. If you want to effectively stop any offense...shut down the QB.
ATLHawksfan21
Starter
Posts: 2,134
And1: 491
Joined: Jul 10, 2012

Re: Hawks offense as evolution to modern defenses 

Post#28 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:29 pm

We scored 124 points on Golden St.

I don't think I would use them as a measuring point for how defenses should play us. Millsap abused Draymond all night and they couldn't defend us without fouling.
User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 36,821
And1: 14,250
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: Hawks offense as evolution to modern defenses 

Post#29 » by Jamaaliver » Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:54 pm

ATLHawksfan21 wrote:We scored 124 points on Golden St.

I don't think I would use them as a measuring point for how defenses should play us. Millsap abused Draymond all night and they couldn't defend us without fouling.


This is a very fair point. Two things:

1) GSW (last I checked) was still the most effective defensive team league-wide. It seems very naive to dismiss their defensive prowess because of one game.

2) In that game, we scored most of our points on 3-pointers and free throws. 78 points to be exact. I would not count on this type of production consistently against another top team. Especially the free throw disparity.

I simply don't see Bazemore and Mike Scott combining for 28 points with any regularity.

On a separate note, I respectfully request that WE ALL not be so dismissive and argumentative with each other in every single thread. It's starting to feel like groundhog's day in this place.
ATLHawksfan21
Starter
Posts: 2,134
And1: 491
Joined: Jul 10, 2012

Re: Hawks offense as evolution to modern defenses 

Post#30 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:02 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
ATLHawksfan21 wrote:We scored 124 points on Golden St.

I don't think I would use them as a measuring point for how defenses should play us. Millsap abused Draymond all night and they couldn't defend us without fouling.


This is a very fair point. Two things:

1) GSW (last I checked) was still the most effective defensive team league-wide. It seems very naive to dismiss their defensive prowess because of one game.

2) In that game, we scored most of our points on 3-pointers and free throws. 78 points to be exact. I would not count on this type of production consistently against another top team. Especially the free throw disparity.

I simply don't see Bazemore and Mike Scott combining for 28 points with any regularity.

On a separate note, I respectfully request that WE ALL not be so dismissive and argumentative with each other in every single thread. It's starting to feel like groundhog's day in this place.


I agree that the hot 3 pt shooting played a part. While we were hot from 3, we only hit 5 more than our per game average of 10. So that's 15 extra points on 3's. I don't think you can dismiss the FTs since they are the result of GSW's inability to stay in front of our players on defense. They had no answer for Millsap and he was baiting them in to fouls all night. This led to 12 FTs for himself and many for others as Golden St reached the penalty early in the quarter a couple of times. 8 of the FTs came in the last minute when they started playing the foul game.

Bazemore and Scott may not give you 28 but Horford and Schroder can easily give you more than 21. That's the great thing about this team. Every one can shoot and a different person steps up each night. We become scary good when several are hot at the same time.
User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 36,821
And1: 14,250
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: Hawks offense as evolution to modern defenses 

Post#31 » by Jamaaliver » Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:15 pm

ATLHawksfan21 wrote:Pass heavy team-oriented offenses have proven to be Lebron's kryptonite as his 3 Finals losses have come to the Spurs x2 and the Mavs.


This is actually a REALLY good point. Something I had not considered.

It also is a reminder that should we face him, it will essentially be the third straight post-season he has played against this offensive system.

ATLHawksfan21 wrote:I agree that the hot 3 pt shooting played a part. While we were hot from 3, we only hit 5 more than our per game average of 10. So that's 15 extra points on 3's. I don't think you can dismiss the FTs since they are the result of GSW's inability to stay in front of our players on defense. They had no answer for Millsap and he was baiting them in to fouls all night. This led to 12 FTs for himself and many for others as Golden St reached the penalty early in the quarter a couple of times. 8 of the FTs came in the last minute when they started playing the foul game.


Every bit of this is correct. But my larger point was the defensive strategy of switching could be problematic for us against teams with lots of length on the perimeter. This thread is less about a specific team, than about this offense being created to counter a specific defense.

Here is a visual aid for how effective the switching defense was against us on a possession by possession basis:



The driving lanes are clogged because there drastically less space than when defenders attempt to fight through the pick.
ATLHawksfan21
Starter
Posts: 2,134
And1: 491
Joined: Jul 10, 2012

Re: Hawks offense as evolution to modern defenses 

Post#32 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:49 pm

I just don't see the Cavs fitting the criteria of lots of length on the perimeter. Shumpert and Lebron have length. J.R. isn't huge and their other wings players are James Jones and Mike Miller. I would say Shumpert, Lebron and Mozgov are the only 3 that provide length on the Cavs.

With GSW, you have Livingston, Thompson, Barnes, Green, Iggy, Bogut. They are loaded with perimeter length.
User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 36,821
And1: 14,250
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: Hawks offense as evolution to modern defenses 

Post#33 » by Jamaaliver » Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:07 pm

ATLHawksfan21 wrote:I just don't see the Cavs fitting the criteria of lots of length on the perimeter. Shumpert and Lebron have length. J.R. isn't huge and their other wings players are James Jones and Mike Miller. I would say Shumpert, Lebron and Mozgov are the only 3 that provide length on the Cavs.

With GSW, you have Livingston, Thompson, Barnes, Green, Iggy, Bogut. They are loaded with perimeter length.


:(

Again...the thread is more about the offensive system and, thusly, defensive strategies to stop it.

But to clarify, I was thinking of Iman, LeBron, JR Smith and Shawn Marion (and even 6'9" Tristan Thompson) specifically as guys able to switch effectively on the perimeter.

I'm basically attempting to predict what steps opposing coaches will employ to stop us in the post-season. No offense is purely unstoppable. And even SAS struggled last post-season against OKC once Ibaka came back.
ATLHawksfan21
Starter
Posts: 2,134
And1: 491
Joined: Jul 10, 2012

 

Post#34 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:22 pm

I know what you are saying and I am saying you need quick length if you are going to be successful in using a switching scheme. I dont see the Cavs personnel being anywhere close to golden sts.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using RealGM Forums mobile app
User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 36,821
And1: 14,250
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: 

Post#35 » by Jamaaliver » Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:26 pm

ATLHawksfan21 wrote:I know what you are saying and I am saying you need quick length if you are going to be successful in using a switching scheme. I dont see the Cavs personnel being anywhere close to golden sts.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using RealGM Forums mobile app


But the only perimeter position on our team that really utilizes quickness with the ball is PG. You don't need quick length to guard Korver or Demarre or Mack or Bazemore. Not in the half court anyway.

And LeBron and Iman are pretty quick defenders.
User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 36,821
And1: 14,250
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: Hawks offense as evolution to modern defenses 

Post#36 » by Jamaaliver » Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:35 pm

ATLHawksfan21 wrote:This myth about Lebron guarding every position on the floor is getting out of hand.

ATLHawksfan21 wrote:Lbj only has two titles in his career...


For what it's worth...Michael Jordan only had 2 titles when he turned 30 also. He turned out okay.
If you aren't impressed enough by one of the top 5 players to ever pick up a basketball to express legitimate concern facing him in his prime...

I honestly don't think there is anything anyone could ever tell you otherwise.
User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 36,821
And1: 14,250
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: Hawks offense as evolution to modern defenses 

Post#37 » by Jamaaliver » Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:59 pm

Regarding LBJ guarding opposing PGs in the playoffs, found some great examples in my research:

Certainly, there’s precedent. When James and his Miami crew in its first incarnation faced a dominant point guard in the 2011 Eastern Conference finals, the multi-dimensional small forward volunteered for defensive shifts against Chicago’s Derrick Rose. It wasn’t a full-time thing – just enough to turn the Bulls’ victory in Game 1 of that series into four straight Miami triumphs.
James bottled up the irrepressible Rose at his own MVP best that spring. How effectively? Over the final two games, Rose shot 1-for-15 with three turnovers when guarded by the stronger, more formidable defender.
Here

The fourth quarter is when LeBron's true defensive dominance is unleashed, with Spoelstra assigning him Parker—a decision that completely unhinges the San Antonio offense. James will typically lay off of Parker on the perimeter, giving him room to shoot. Instead, he tries to penetrate and sometimes can gain a slight advantage against James.

The difference is that James' superior athleticism allows him to block almost all of Parker's shots from behind. The space James gives up initially also gives him time to slide his feet and physically overmatch Parker. What's normally a small crease Parker can slide through closes up as he simply bounces back off of James.

Only once in the final six minutes of Game 2 did Parker even attempt to attack James, and it didn't go well.(See video below)

But what's key isn't James' defense on Parker; it's no surprise that James won the matchup. This play is about how the rest of the Miami defense reacts—or, to be more precise, doesn't react. The trust in James to defend Parker allows his teammates to stay at home on shooters, giving Parker no other option than to recklessly attack James. It's therefore completely on Parker to create something, which he's unable to do. He eventually dribbles himself into the short corner, gets stuck and [in this instance] nearly turns it over when James easily strips him.
Here



Give San Antonio credit for recognizing the mismatch and opting for other offensive avenues. For most of the final six minutes, the offense was initiated through Ginobili or Duncan, with Parker heading to the corner as a floor spacer. Because he's not a great shooter, James could cheat off him toward the middle to protect the paint.

One minor adjustment completely [countered] San Antonio's offense, nullifying the wonderful offensive ability of Parker: blanketing him with LeBron. While Ginobili and Duncan are great players in their own right, they're better playing off Parker. Parker is the true penetrator, the true point guard. He's the one that makes the Spurs' offensive machine purr, and without him, San Antonio struggled.

It's this type of play that proves LeBron James' dominance as a defender. Obviously he can't sustain that level of intensity on both ends of the floor for the entire game, so it's no shock that his defensive legs are usually saved for the fourth quarter. But when it's finally his time to shine on defense, Parker doesn't stand a chance.


User avatar
Jamaaliver
Forum Mod - Hawks
Forum Mod - Hawks
Posts: 36,821
And1: 14,250
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
Location: Officially a citizen of the World...
Contact:
     

Re: Hawks offense as evolution to modern defenses 

Post#38 » by Jamaaliver » Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:26 pm

If I'm CLE (or MIL), I play straight man defense in the first quarter with various defenders playing against Teague and hiding Kyrie on Demarre.

In the 2nd quarter, I play a half court press with Iman as primary defender on the PG (whether it's Dennis or Teague). Presuring the young guards from mid court and forcing the backups to make offensive plays.

In the third quarter I'd move to a switching defense midway through, thus minimizing any adjustments ATL has made offensively at halftime.

Last 6 minutes of the fourth, put LBJ on Teague and shut him down...similar to what we see him do to Tony Parker above. This forces Horford and Millsap to initiate the offense for the stretch run.

The Hawks only have two players capable of beating their man consistently off the dribble to make plays. Opposing coaches will go out of their way to eliminate them and see the other four players make plays.

If our 3-pt shot i falling...we can survive. But we can't hit from deep and don't have penetration from the guards...it could get ugly.
ATLHawksfan21
Starter
Posts: 2,134
And1: 491
Joined: Jul 10, 2012

Re: Hawks offense as evolution to modern defenses 

Post#39 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:41 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
ATLHawksfan21 wrote:This myth about Lebron guarding every position on the floor is getting out of hand.

ATLHawksfan21 wrote:Lbj only has two titles in his career...


For what it's worth...Michael Jordan only had 2 titles when he turned 30 also. He turned out okay.
If you aren't impressed enough by one of the top 5 players to ever pick up a basketball to express legitimate concern facing him in his prime...

I honestly don't think there is anything anyone could ever tell you otherwise.



James a top 5 player of all-time?

I think you need to pull back the reigns big time. He has A LOT of work to do if he wants to appear on the Mt Rushmore of the NBA.
ATLHawksfan21
Starter
Posts: 2,134
And1: 491
Joined: Jul 10, 2012

Re: Hawks offense as evolution to modern defenses 

Post#40 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:43 pm

I said that James may guard a PG for a couple of possessions. I said the difference is he is not going to take on the assignment full-time like George did. I also want to see who Irving guards if they put James on Teague. I would love to see Irving try to chase Korver around. Irving is a lazy defender and gets lost easy. Korver will make it rain if Irving draws the assignment.

Return to Atlanta Hawks