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Jenkins an example of Hawks' Depth

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Re: Jenkins an example of Hawks' Depth 

Post#21 » by MaceCase » Mon Mar 2, 2015 10:09 pm

People need to recognize that

a) the Hawks will be below the cap.
b) can spend above the cap yet still be far below the luxury tax as a condition of being below the cap to begin with.
c) the cap (and tax line) typically rises every year and is predicted to have a dramatic increase in the near future.
e) contracts don't last forever, going over the cap this year doesn't mean you'll even be over the cap the following year.


Jenkins could return next year but not picking up his option goes into that big ole F word that Ferry has preached since he got here: "Flexibility". There's a lot of minutia to his moves that creates options that most fans can't or won't see but they are there even if they don't get realized.
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Post#22 » by PandaKidd » Mon Mar 2, 2015 10:13 pm

I recognize all of that. Thanks for implying I didn't.

Doesn't mean its smart
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Post#23 » by MaceCase » Tue Mar 3, 2015 4:26 am

PandaKidd wrote:I recognize all of that. Thanks for implying I didn't.

Doesn't mean its smart

Well your reasoning for why exactly it isn't smart didn't hold any water thus indicating to me that you don't recognize that. You used the Nets as an example even though I'd find it rather interesting to see how you think the Hawks add 50 million in payroll in one offseason, maybe max Pero, Carrol, Sap, Brand and Ayon?
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Post#24 » by PandaKidd » Tue Mar 3, 2015 4:42 am

It must be so difficult being as smart as you are. /sarcasm

Don't distort what I said. I have a hard time believing if we don't make the ECF this year that our goal is to bring back the exact same team and oh BTW add 2 much more long term and expansive contracts to VETS along the way.

It goes against everything ferry/spurs do.

I'm well aware what the nets payroll is, its what happens when you overpay 30 year old guys, which is what this thread was leaning toward discussing.

You guys can justify it all you want, I just said I'm not sure I agree that's the best course of action
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Post#25 » by PandaKidd » Tue Mar 3, 2015 4:44 am

39 million + 13-14 million for Millsap + 5-7 million for Carroll , do you even math bro?

My point is if they bring back pero, bring tavares over , sign draft picks.....

Congrats, you have the same team as 14/15 just more expensive.

If we make the finals and dethrone lebron, its worth it. But I specifically said "if we lose in the first or second round"

Try to keep up
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Post#26 » by PandaKidd » Tue Mar 3, 2015 4:47 am

Point 3 in regards to your contracts aren't forever comment...

We are in year 2 of Teague deal. Next year is year 3. If we don't extend him he enters year 4 towards FA correct?

Teague , for now is VASTLY underpaid . making long term deals with 29 and 30 year old PM AN DMC puts strain on when it comes time to sign teague, Schroeder, extend AH etc.

You can't pay everyone , pick your poison
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Post#27 » by MaceCase » Tue Mar 3, 2015 9:19 am

PandaKidd wrote:It must be so difficult being as smart as you are. /sarcasm

Don't distort what I said. I have a hard time believing if we don't make the ECF this year that our goal is to bring back the exact same team and oh BTW add 2 much more long term and expansive contracts to VETS along the way.

It goes against everything ferry/spurs do.

I'm well aware what the nets payroll is, its what happens when you overpay 30 year old guys, which is what this thread was leaning toward discussing.

You guys can justify it all you want, I just said I'm not sure I agree that's the best course of action

The Nets payroll is what happens when you trade cheaper players for more expensive players, re-sign said more expensive players to even more expensive contracts and then trade them now again for even more expensive players and use all of your exceptions along the way.....not just overpay 30 year old guys. It's your very simplistic reasoning for why you think things happen that makes me question whether you get it at all. Did you forget that this is the same core from 3 years ago just with Millsap and Demarre added? Did you forget that this is the same team from last season just with Thabo and Bazemore added. Somehow they aren't the best team in the league and somehow this wasn't Ferry's doing.

PandaKidd wrote:39 million + 13-14 million for Millsap + 5-7 million for Carroll , do you even math bro?

My point is if they bring back pero, bring tavares over , sign draft picks.....

Congrats, you have the same team as 14/15 just more expensive.

If we make the finals and dethrone lebron, its worth it. But I specifically said "if we lose in the first or second round"

Try to keep up

39+14+7=60, Yea I guess Pero could stand to get a huge increase from 1.3 million, Tavares as a second rounder will also break the salary scale and make more than ~900k along with the other rookies /sarcasm. So 39+14+7+ .9x2 for Tavares and the other 2nd rounder, and let's even go ahead and say the Hawks win the lotto so 5 mill for the 1st overall pick. 39+14+7+.9+.9+5 = 66.8 congratulations, you returned the same team for 7 million more, 5 of that being made by the fictitious 1st overall pick while still being right at salary cap projection and 27 million less than the Nets. I maths well.

PandaKidd wrote:Point 3 in regards to your contracts aren't forever comment...

We are in year 2 of Teague deal. Next year is year 3. If we don't extend him he enters year 4 towards FA correct?

Teague , for now is VASTLY underpaid . making long term deals with 29 and 30 year old PM AN DMC puts strain on when it comes time to sign teague, Schroeder, extend AH etc.

You can't pay everyone , pick your poison

No, you actually can pay everyone....they are the Hawks own free agents......they could exceed the cap, even the luxury tax to resign them all... they really don't have to pick their poison at all..... and you said you knew this.

You like hypotheticals but who is to say that they don't just go with Schroeder as the starter? That Tavares and/or Okafor aren't adequate replacements for Al? That Korver at 36 doesn't decide to retire or sign for an ever cheaper deal? That the cap isn't sitting at 80 million with the luxury tax at 100? That after winning 3 straight championships that management feels that the core has run its course and blow it up?

I see you've caught feelings over my tone but after your "rebuttal" I'll just say that your reasoning for the Hawks not spending up to the cap is plain dumb, justify that.
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Post#28 » by PandaKidd » Tue Mar 3, 2015 10:25 am

I would type out a lengthy response but we will just argue the same points.

Agree to disagree . and yeah I think sometimes your tone is one of an elitist ****. Not need to justify that :)
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Re: Jenkins an example of Hawks' Depth 

Post#29 » by MaceCase » Tue Mar 3, 2015 1:36 pm

Oh well, I usually only step in when people who clearly know little about a subject post excessively as if they are experts at it while clearly getting many of their "facts" wrong. If that makes me an "elitist" then so be it, I guess it's in bad taste to educate on a subject you have quite a bit of knowledge on and following the lead of professionals who have an even greater depth of knowledge on but by all means, put your foot in your mouth to your heart's content, free country and whatnot.
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Post#30 » by PandaKidd » Tue Mar 3, 2015 1:48 pm

Ahh the "I'm smarter than you" forum troll.

Is this where I question your manhood or tell you to "get laid"?

If you want to resign this teak to more money AFTER they get bounced in the second round up to or beyond the cap, GO FOR IT.

Until you understand my point its not worth arguing
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Re: Jenkins an example of Hawks' Depth 

Post#31 » by PandaKidd » Tue Mar 3, 2015 2:08 pm

Now that im near a PC:

My ORIGINAL COMMENT
If Millsap gets offered BIG dollars somewhere else, I doubt he is here. We wont break the bank to keep a 30+ year old. Same with Carroll


Heres what the Hawks are looking at per Rolling Stone:L
All this is to say that if the Hawks want to maintain their status as a title contender in the years ahead they can't afford to let Millsap go. Unfortunately, they only have his Early Bird Rights, meaning they can only re-sign him to a four-year deal (as opposed to five) with a 7.5 percent annual increase. That contract would start at about $16.6 million, ultimately paying nearly $74 million in total.

But if bigger fish like Aldridge and Gasol stay with their respective teams, it'll be interesting to see who throws bags of cash in Millsap's direction. The San Antonio Spurs (if Tim Duncan retires), New York Knicks, Philadelphia 76ers (probably not, but they have as much cap space as anyone), Los Angeles Lakers, Dallas Mavericks and Detroit Pistons are a handful of teams who could slide a max contract under Millsap's nose.

And the standard four-year max those teams can offer is about $5.5 million more than what Atlanta can spend using the Early Bird Exception. In other words, the Hawks don't hold a financial edge to maintain their own free agent.


Forget the cap, I do not think 74 million is wise to pay Millsap. Not at 30. We are in the WORST situation possible, having to offer a max deal to a max player at 30. If we commit that kind of money to him, yes we can go over the cap, YES we can pay it. But, my 2nd point was

IF WE GET BOUNCED IN THE SECOND ROUND, simply reupping the current roster isnt forward progress. You can have short memory and just say "This team is the same as last year and all we added was Thabo and Baze" but thats you forgetting AH is a HUGE part of this years success. Its apples to oranges to compare. I do NOT think this team is winning a championship, I think they are close, but I do not think they get past lebron or the west. IF THAT HAPPENS, your scenario is the DUMBEST thing we can do.

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Re: Jenkins an example of Hawks' Depth 

Post#32 » by PandaKidd » Tue Mar 3, 2015 2:13 pm

This was all detailed on Peachtree Hoops.

http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2014/12/1 ... anta-hawks

I was incorrect about the hawks having the physical assets to sign both Millsap and DMC. For that I apologize. BUT, that doesnt take away my main point of IS IT SMART
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Re: Jenkins an example of Hawks' Depth 

Post#33 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Tue Mar 3, 2015 3:40 pm

We will be in the ECF's as long as we stay healthy. There's no team from 4-8 that can beat us in 7 and we will likely win the first two series in 5 games each.
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Re: Jenkins an example of Hawks' Depth 

Post#34 » by PandaKidd » Tue Mar 3, 2015 3:46 pm

ATLHawksfan21 wrote:We will be in the ECF's as long as we stay healthy. There's no team from 4-8 that can beat us in 7 and we will likely win the first two series in 5 games each.

I REALLY hope you are right. I think we are good enough to make ECF, dont get me wrong. But theres a TON of teams that have been together much longer than us that have much longer playoff experience. Thabo has Finals experience which is good. As I have said before, I hope he comes back healthy and soon. They said Mid March yesterday so thats good to hear.

As of right now, CLE is 4, I would absolutely say they can beat us, without a doubt. So i dont think this whole "4-8 has not shot to beat us in 7" rhetoric. Not in my opinion.

I do not want to face
CLE

Mil can give us fits, so can WSH if they are healthy. Not saying they can beat us, but I think its premature to say we will win first 2 round in 5 games, kind of arrogant to be honest
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Re: Jenkins an example of Hawks' Depth 

Post#35 » by theatlfan » Tue Mar 3, 2015 3:46 pm

One thing to note about the salary discussions: we don't have Full Bird Rights to either Carroll or Millsap so we can't offer any value up to the max without using cap space. I saw one projection from a national writer on ESPN that had Demarre's value at $8M and Millsap's at $17M which would almost assuredly be greater than their Early Bird Exceptions would allow for. (For Demarre, we can give him 104.5% of the "average salary" this year... no idea what the "average salary" will be, but I'm going to assume around $5.5M.) Hence, we'd have to use cap space to sign them. $25M (for Demarre and Millsap) + $39M = $64M before the cap hold for the draft pick, Antic, etc. This also means that we wouldn't be able to use the non-tax MLE, but to go any further over the cap we would have to use the Room MLE which is significantly less.

Now, there's a bunch of caveats in there. For instance, if Millsap took $16.5M then that would lie within his Early Bird and we "gain" ~$4M in cap space by waiting to sign him until all the other roster moves that we were planning on are done. Also, the $8M for Demarre seems high - even a $6M salary is almost 2x what he is making now and might actually lie inside his Early Bird Rights. Still, I don't see us being able to sign both without having to use cap room to do it which puts a lot of strain on other areas. I loved those 2-year deals at the time, but man oh man, I'd really like to have those Full Bird Rights now.
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Re: Jenkins an example of Hawks' Depth 

Post#36 » by PandaKidd » Tue Mar 3, 2015 3:47 pm

Also, dont count out that the Bulls wind up in the 5/6 position by years end. They could be at full strength entering the playoffs if Rose is back
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Re: Jenkins an example of Hawks' Depth 

Post#37 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Tue Mar 3, 2015 4:39 pm

PandaKidd wrote:
ATLHawksfan21 wrote:We will be in the ECF's as long as we stay healthy. There's no team from 4-8 that can beat us in 7 and we will likely win the first two series in 5 games each.

I REALLY hope you are right. I think we are good enough to make ECF, dont get me wrong. But theres a TON of teams that have been together much longer than us that have much longer playoff experience. Thabo has Finals experience which is good. As I have said before, I hope he comes back healthy and soon. They said Mid March yesterday so thats good to hear.

As of right now, CLE is 4, I would absolutely say they can beat us, without a doubt. So i dont think this whole "4-8 has not shot to beat us in 7" rhetoric. Not in my opinion.

I do not want to face
CLE

Mil can give us fits, so can WSH if they are healthy. Not saying they can beat us, but I think its premature to say we will win first 2 round in 5 games, kind of arrogant to be honest


I would bet my right pinky toe that Cleveland is the 2 or 3 seed come playoff time.

and who in the world are these TONS of teams that have been together and have much longer playoff experience? I can't think of a single one.

Cleveland - brand new and Lebron is the only person with playoff experience. J.R. also but he is mildly (Please Use More Appropriate Word) so he doesn't count.
Toronto - 1 series where they underperformed and lost to a mediocre Brooklyn team
Washington - 2 series.
Chicago - Chicago has been a playoff mainstay but this is a new Chicago team. Pau/Mirotic/Brooks are all new contributors. Might as well count Rose as new as well. They haven't been very successful in the playoffs even though they make it each year. Deng and Boozer are gone.
Milwaukee - Brand new team, no playoff experience
Miami - No Lebron, No Bosh. Brand new team
Indiana - This is the only team with previous playoff experience but they are without their best player and another starter from these playoff appearances.

So, again, where in the world are these TONs of teams.

Atlanta is near the top with playoff experience. Horford and Teague, (two of their main 3) have been to the playoffs together in every year of Teague's career. Korver has been the past 2 years. They all were in the playoffs together last year.
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Re: Jenkins an example of Hawks' Depth 

Post#38 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Tue Mar 3, 2015 4:39 pm

Washington can give us fits? Have you watched our games with Washington? We will beat Washington in 4-5 games. Our style of play is their worst nightmare.
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Post#39 » by PandaKidd » Tue Mar 3, 2015 4:43 pm

I was speaking of both conferences about playoff exp.

I was talking about winning a championship and mentioned other teams have playoff experience.

Then I switched to talking about EC.

If WSH is healthy, they have a very capable team, I'm a pessimist, you are not.

Regular season doesnt really matter come playoff time you know that . teams get 7 games to scout and prepare for you
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Re: Jenkins an example of Hawks' Depth 

Post#40 » by ATLHawksfan21 » Tue Mar 3, 2015 5:03 pm

I guess all I can say is thank the lawd that I'm not a pessimist. I would hate to constantly be brainstorming for unrealistic ways for my team to fail. Your views seem to skew heavily in favor of every team not named the Hawks. I don't remember you being like this even a couple of months ago. What happened? How can you turn more negative during a season like this?

Ask the Washington board if they think they will pressure us in a 7 game series and hilarity will ensue.

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