Could a DS - D12 pairing be a poor fit?

[Jamaaliver]

One of the wiriters over at SB nations wonders just how well Dennis will mesh with the new face of the franchise:

[H]ow good the new-look Hawks end up, will largely come down to whether Dennis Schroder and Howard can find a way to make their games fit.

The losses of Horford and Teague are big, but in terms of individual talent and production, Atlanta found good replacements. Howard is not a great offensive player anymore and he can't space the floor the way Horford did, but he can still make an impact on defense and especially the boards. Schroder might be an upgrade over Teague in terms of talent and is six years younger. Coming off the bench, he has gotten better every year.

The problem is their playing styles don't match one another.

Schroder used the pick-and-roll more often than any other set to score, according to Synergy Sports. Now he will play with a center who isn't happy just being a dive man. The spacing will be compromised with Howard parked in the paint, which might give Schroder the excuse to abuse his mid-range jumper like he has at times in the past. His three-point shot is inconsistent and he's always looked disengaged when he's been off the ball, but he might be asked to be a floor-spacer more often than before.

If the old version of Schroder shows up next season, the Hawks could be in trouble.

Atlanta needs to keep Howard happy, which is not easy.

The best way to do that is to have a low-usage lead ballhandler who can spot up around him when he posts up and is willing to feed him. The paint will be cluttered, but the point guard has to be willing to drive anyway and explore his options instead of settling for mid-range looks. With Howard likely using more possessions than Horford, the rest of the team will need to be fed by a place-setting, mistake-averse lead ballhandler.


If Schroder's pull-up shot improves just a bit more and he makes enough plays on both ends, his occasional recklessness will be forgiven. It's just surprising that a team that relied so heavily on chemistry has decided to go through with this experiment.

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[ATL Boy]

I don't really feel like Dennis taking those mid-range shots is necessarily a bad thing. Last season he shot 38.8% from 10-16 feet and 41.5% from 16 feet to the 3 point line; it's beyond he arc where his clip dropped to 32.2%. His mid range numbers seem at the very least pretty competent.

He said during an SL interview that he's been working on his jumper again this offseason (along with his finishing at the rim) so I wouldn't be shocked to see the numbers get better this year. If they do then there's no problem with a Dennis-Dwight combination. In fact the PnR between the two will make this team a force on offense. Limit Dwight's post game and turn him into the PnR monster he was with the Magic.


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[Jamaaliver]

I don't really feel like Dennis taking those mid-range shots is necessarily a bad thing. He said during an SL interview that he's been working on his jumper again this offseason (along with his finishing at the rim) so I wouldn't be shocked to see the numbers get better this year.

THAT is a great relief to hear. DS with even a modest mid-range game is a much more dangerous threat in the PnR.

The article also mentions needed improvement to his off-ball game. Another necessary adjustment when playing beside a ball dominant big man with limited range.

He should be cutting to the rim early and often when he gives the ball up to Dwight.

NOTE: For all my concerns regarding keeping Kent Bazemore, he should be a perfect complement to a player like Dwight.

[PandaKidd]

They have never played together so, hard to say how well or how poor the fit is. I trust that our basketball player evaluation knows what fits and what doesnt.

Does Dwight want to be a PnR player? He hasnt been in recent memory. But maybe hes willing too now?

[Jamaaliver]

New PG Jarrett Jack speculates on how he and DS might be utilizing/featuring Dwight in the post more often this season:

In his three NBA seasons, Schroder has played with a starting center...that could stretch the floor and developed a 3-point shot. Howard will [likely] be a pick-and-roll player. Jack can help Schroder with that adjustment with his experience playing with big men, including Brook Lopez the past two seasons with the Nets.

“I think me and Dennis will do a good job of keeping everybody involved, especially a guy like Dwight who demands so much attention,” Jack said. “If we get teams doubling him and concentrating on his post-ups, that will allow for more opportunities for guys and kick-out 3s or penetrating driving lanes. I just think it will be the best of both worlds.

“There are different ways to get the ball in the most feared area which is the paint. Having a guy like Dwight, who most nights doesn’t have a guy who meets his physical attributes, forces a lot of team defenses to collapse on him. Getting the ball in there with post-up and pick-and-roll situations is pretty much the same difference. I’m sure we’ll use that to our advantage.”

"I think it will be somewhat different now that we have Dwight - a more traditional big guy down on the block - rather than Dennis playing with the ball more. I don’t know if it will be more of a post-up focus to get (Howard) involved on a night-by-night basis. We’ll just see.”

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I LOVE what I'm hearing out of Jack regarding his relationship with DS and how they might approach the new offense. He indicates this is all speculative, based on experience and preliminary conversations with Coach Bud.

One concern...he mentions Dwight by name like a half dozen times...but he doesn't bring up Millsap in any of the portion of the interview with regards to how the new offense might work.

I truly believe we're gonna see D12 have a huuuge rebound season and emerge as a force in the paint...and it's gonna come at the expense of Paul Millsap's production.

[PandaKidd]

mehhh i wouldnt read that much into it. D12 is new, we know what PM can do. Theres no need to discuss how Millsap is going to fit on the team, the big signing was D12.

[Johnstarks]

Nah you don't want to post up dwight at all. Those are poor offensive possessions. Didn't you hear Morey? It was by design they weren't feeding dwight the ball. Dwight is a screener, rebounder, and defender at this stage of his career.

Teams aren't going to collapse on dwight if he gets the ball in the post. You just force him to take a bad shot or you foul him if he gets a good one (pretty rare).

His post moves were never that great because he can't finish unless he gets to the rim but now his athleticism is too limited from the injuries.

You only get him the ball at all to keep him happy enough to rebound and defend

[Geaux_Hawks]

Nah you don't want to post up dwight at all. Those are poor offensive possessions. Didn't you hear Morey? It was by design they weren't feeding dwight the ball. Dwight is a screener, rebounder, and defender at this stage of his career.

Teams aren't going to collapse on dwight if he gets the ball in the post. You just force him to take a bad shot or you foul him if he gets a good one (pretty rare).

His post moves were never that great because he can't finish unless he gets to the rim but now his athleticism is too limited from the injuries.

You only get him the ball at all to keep him happy enough to rebound and defend

And that's fine as we will just abuse the pick and roll/lob it up to him. He can still do that quite well. We have Milsap to be more of a go-to scorer.

[Johnstarks]

Yeah Dwight is there to give you an offensive rebounding or suck up defenders on the lob threat

[HMFFL]

I believe many will be surprised with how well the two co-exist.
In Houston Dwight Howard felt as if he didn't serve a purpose. James Harden drove inside all the time and neglected Howard inside. Howard basically viewed as the cleanup guy.
With us, I expect Dwight Howard to receive more touches, and it's safe to assume it was discussed before he signed his contract. If we fail to give him a sufficient enough I intend to blame DS. I doubt DS will drive inside with the big men as often as some believe he's going to.
I fully expect DS to run the point like we need. If not, he won't be around very long, because our organization has evolved from the past. Players are gentleman within the front office are with the program or else they'll be unemployed.

[simon24]

It's a chance if Dennis becomes a ball hog and Dwight becomes apathetic again.

[Jamaaliver]

Thabo, in an interview with Chris Vivlamore of the AJC, dwells specifically on the rapport Dennis and Dwight will need to develop this season:

C-Viv Dwight Howard will replace Al Horford and Dennis Schroder will replace Jeff Teague. Specifically how do you see the team being different next season? First with Howard? and with Dennis?


Thabo: I love what Jeff was bringing to the team. It’s always tough. Dennis has an incredible talent. He’s going to be great. He’s going to be the point guard. It’s going to be tough. I think we are all going to help him. I think it’s a tough position to be so young and to have so much on your shoulders. I think it’s going to be on all of us to help him. Help him and Dwight. The relationship between the point guard and the (center) is going to be huge. I think early we have to establish something good for them to feel comfortable and it’s going to be on us as veterans, guys like me who have been with the team for a period.”

[Jamaaliver]

Dennis discussing the improving on-court chemistry between he and Dwight:

Watch on YouTube

[Jamaaliver]

Chris Mannix of the Vertical over at Yahoo Sports briefly assesses the early results of the DS-D12 pairing:

Howard has developed a nice on-court chemistry with point guard Dennis Schroder, whose elevation to the starting job has been a resounding success, and isn’t — for now — bemoaning a single-digit shot output like he did in Houston.

...there is every reason to believe a Howard-led Hawks team is a threat to secure a top-three seed. Budenholzer points out that despite some high-profile defections in recent years, key pieces of Atlanta’s core remain, which has helped the Hawks avoid some of the growing pains rivals have experienced this season.

There’s early evidence that this Hawks team could be the best of the Budenholzer era. Last week Atlanta traveled to Cleveland to play a Cavs team that had whipped them 11 straight times. The Hawks won, with Schroder pouring in 28 and Howard, with 17 rebounds, powering the Hawks to a rebounding edge (62-51) they rarely enjoyed in prior matchups.

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As does FiveThirtyEight.com:

The [Horford for Howard] swap — along with promoting point guard Dennis Schröder to a starting role after dealing away former All-Star Jeff Teague — has brought about some encouraging signs for the 8-2 Hawks, who probably needed a bit of a shake-up.

...Between the easy putbacks, and Howard’s pick-and-roll feeds from Schröder, Atlanta is shooting nearly 67 percent at the rim — up from just over 60 percent last year — second only to the Golden State Warriors so far. Howard, taking more than 80 percent of his shots from there (and also connecting on about 67 percent of those attempts), is fundamentally changing the way the team’s shot chart looks in the process.

Aside from cleaning the glass for easy putbacks, [D12] is jelling with Schröder in pick-and-roll scenarios, regularly catching lobs from his new point guard, who appears to be making a concerted effort to keep him involved

Schröder, in Atlanta’s equal-opportunity system, is finding Howard more than eight times a night, according to SportVU tracking. Because Schröder’s passes have generally left him with nothing to do but lay the ball in, particularly against lesser opponents such as the Sixers, Howard’s average time of possession per touch is down nearly 16 percent from last season and has decreased more than 27 percent from two seasons ago.

[Jamaaliver]

And a week later, in the midst of a tough stretch...this pairing doesn't seem quite as rosy:

the Hawks have actually been outscored with Howard on the floor, and both their offense and defense have been around five points per 100 possessions better when he’s sat.

the offense tends to short-circuit when Howard and Schroder share the court. The duo has played 393 minutes together and the Hawks have scored at a bottom-three rate during that time (96.2 points per 100 possessions), and for somewhat obvious reasons: Nobody is all that threatened by a pick-and-roll where the dive man can’t score outside the immediate area of the rim and the point guard can’t consistently make teams pay for not devoting an extra man to him when he comes around the screen.

Here


These two lack range offensively. And the shooters aren't getting the ball in their spots and aren't knocking down the catch and shoot opportunities.

IMO, this falls on the PG's inability to hit shooters in stride or knock down open mid-range jumpers when defenders go under screens.

Clearly, teams have adjusted how they defend us on the pick-and-roll. What we're seeing now is the text book way to defend guys with no range. It's up to our coaching staff to adjust now.

[simon24]

And a week later, in the midst of a tough stretch...this pairing doesn't seem quite as rosy:

the Hawks have actually been outscored with Howard on the floor, and both their offense and defense have been around five points per 100 possessions better when he’s sat.

the offense tends to short-circuit when Howard and Schroder share the court. The duo has played 393 minutes together and the Hawks have scored at a bottom-three rate during that time (96.2 points per 100 possessions), and for somewhat obvious reasons: Nobody is all that threatened by a pick-and-roll where the dive man can’t score outside the immediate area of the rim and the point guard can’t consistently make teams pay for not devoting an extra man to him when he comes around the screen.

Here


These two lack range offensively. And the shooters aren't getting the ball in their spots and aren't knocking down the catch and shoot opportunities.

IMO, this falls on the PG's inability to hit shooters in stride or knock down open mid-range jumpers when defenders go under screens.

Clearly, teams have adjusted how they defend us on the pick-and-roll. What we're seeing now is the text book way to defend guys with no range. It's up to our coaching staff to adjust now.

ATL may need to look into getting a "Ginobli", a 2nd ball handler for the offense. Nobody else can create their own shot.

[Jamaaliver]

The dynamic between these two bears watching.




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[tbhawksfan1]

Isn't it Shro's job as PG to have guys in place and playing the game plan? He was right to question DH. DH should have sais "my bad" and that would have been it.

Bud benching Schro; either he knos something about it that I didn't see or he should have handled it differently. In his interview, he speaks of doing what it takes to win; benching Schro is not a winning move. Punishing Shro while DH wasn't won't go over well.

I'm not a fan of the "CULTURE" movement. It means everyone has to act a certain way, say the right things...ect. That's not what wins. Getting the right players and putting them in position to succeed wins. You can be a good team player without having to integrate someone's vision of culture.

[jayu70]

Isn't it Shro's job as PG to have guys in place and playing the game plan? He was right to question DH. DH should have sais "my bad" and that would have been it.

It's not the first time with Dwight and these passes - lazy and otherwise.

[tbhawksfan1]

DH will always have Imastaritis, even though he isn't anymore. Schro means a lot more to the Hawks than DH