Realistic mid-season trade**Good read

[humblebum]

Slartibartfast, I have a good feeling about Fab's potential and I truly believe we could have another Varejao, Nene type big man from Brazil. His potential as a defensive stud is pretty evident to me, he has elite tools as a rim protector. Why I am really high on Melo is that he's getting top flight coaching from Doc and KG who's going to love Melo. If the Celtics could turn Perk into an 8 million dollar man I could easily see Melo becoming an eight figure player sooner than later. You don't trade that guy in his rookie campaign unless you're getting a sure fire hall of famer back.

Which leads me to Smith. IMO he's simply not that good. Hes a somewhat undersized stretch, uptempo PF-SF tweener with low level scoring skills, inconsistent shooting and generally poor shot selection, no true isolation offensive game. Long term he is going to lose some of that explosiveness and as he does I don't believe he will have the skill or shooting ability to overcome that. On top of that you have to overpay him salary wise and he will IMO remain a fringe all star type. Not the type of guy you make an "all in" deal for.

If Bradley, Melo and Green are outgoing in a deal you need to get a dominant top 10 talent back, Smith doesn't cut it n that regard. Bradley has top 10 guard potential with first team defense, explosive athleticism, and 15-20 PPG ability. You don't trade him along with a potential future starting C plus rock solid role players for a guy who isn't a very good at making sound decisions on a basketball court. To compare Smith to KG is just atrocious, SMH.

[celtxman]

Shades of not wanting to trade Al Jefferson and Gerald Green for KG.

First of all, Josh Smith is an excellent player who would have already been a multiple All-Star had he been playing on this Celtics team. He's tough, talented, unselfish and he plays hard. In other words, he's a Celtic. Second, a lot of guys who HAVE played for us look a little bit better than they would had they not been able to play on a team with the big 3 and Doc coaching. Bass, Bradley, Perkins and even Rondo come to mind there (the Rondo vs Paul "debate" dies a quick death every time I picture Paul playing with the same teammates).

If all it took to get Smith was Bass, Bradley and Melo, my only question is who is driving those fools to the airport?

Garnett was a first ballot Hall of Famer before he ever put on the Celtic Green. With Smith we talk about him playing better because he's with the Celtics. But yes - there was certainly apprehension about trading for Garnett.
When I said we should "pump the brakes" , I meant we have to realize that this is a combination of talent and salary. We are saying that we're OK with Smith's next MAX contract and the future ramifications of that, in addition to losing the players. Now this board is all over the place with Avery Bradley. We go from some wanting to drive him to the airport to some comparing him to Russel Westbrook. But one thing is for sure - there is salary cap value and flexibility in what we are paying Bass, Bradley and Melo. I would think Smith would fit in well, especially with his friendship with Rondo but I know Bass and Bradley do. I know that Bass is OK with taking 6-10 shots a game in the flow of the offense and knocking down 1/2 of them and nailing his free throws to keep defenses honest. I don't know how Smith will react after given free reign to hoist up shots when Doc tells him he's not a shooter like he thinks he is.
I think it is definitely appropriate for the Celtics, at this stage to consider this type of move. We look and through championship experience and adding Allen, the Heat have improved. LA is better and certainly while the Celts should win the Atlantic, the Knicks also had a fruitful off-season and the Nets are a different team. I'm not as sold on Smith as others because he's not a good shooter (from the field or FT's), there is some potential that he could have an attitude problem in a different role, and he is going to command a long-term MAX salary. But I would be remiss to not understand the assets he brings to the table - defense, athleticism, the ability to finish, talneted youth and just overall energy. In terms of Bradley - I'm in the middle - I'm not really sure. So I can understand the Celts getting value from guys like Pietrus or Dudley and moving guys around a bit if Bradley was to be traded.
Because of salary differential this doesn't look likely to happen anyway. I'd personally rather see putting together a similar package for Varejao. He's under wraps for 3 years with a great contract and can play bigger players. I would actually put more in the trade pot for Varejao

[Captain_Caveman]

Varejao is nowhere near as complete a player, IMO. Only slightly better defensively, and perhaps not even in a team defense sense. Smith is a terrific passer for a big and would fit beautifully into what what already do.

Only caveat is having two suspect shooters in the lineup with him and Rondo, but imagine Smith in the Baby/Bass role, where he was *only* taking wide-open 18-footers and the occasional post-up against weak matchups. Oh, and he can run the break and finish?

In any event, understand being wary of the contract, but it is a quality over quantity league. We'd be set with a playoff rotation of:

Rondo
Bradley/Terry
Pierce/Green
Smith/Sullinger
KG

[Slartibartfast]

Slartibartfast, I have a good feeling about Fab's potential and I truly believe we could have another Varejao, Nene type big man from Brazil. His potential as a defensive stud is pretty evident to me, he has elite tools as a rim protector. Why I am really high on Melo is that he's getting top flight coaching from Doc and KG who's going to love Melo. If the Celtics could turn Perk into an 8 million dollar man I could easily see Melo becoming an eight figure player sooner than later. You don't trade that guy in his rookie campaign unless you're getting a sure fire hall of famer back.

Which leads me to Smith. IMO he's simply not that good. Hes a somewhat undersized stretch, uptempo PF-SF tweener with low level scoring skills, inconsistent shooting and generally poor shot selection, no true isolation offensive game. Long term he is going to lose some of that explosiveness and as he does I don't believe he will have the skill or shooting ability to overcome that. On top of that you have to overpay him salary wise and he will IMO remain a fringe all star type. Not the type of guy you make an "all in" deal for.

The bolded statement almost has me speechless.

Disagree on Smith. I think he's a Shawn Marion type talent (a lesser man defender, but a more imposing team defender).

[Slartibartfast]

Varejao is nowhere near as complete a player, IMO. Only slightly better defensively, and perhaps not even in a team defense sense. Smith is a terrific passer for a big and would fit beautifully into what what already do.

Only caveat is having two suspect shooters in the lineup with him and Rondo, but imagine Smith in the Baby/Bass role, where he was *only* taking wide-open 18-footers and the occasional post-up against weak matchups. Oh, and he can run the break and finish?

In any event, understand being wary of the contract, but it is a quality over quantity league. We'd be set with a playoff rotation of:

Rondo
Bradley/Terry
Pierce/Green
Smith/Sullinger
KG

Ideally I'd want one more wing with size and defensive ability in that rotation. Maybe Pietrus.

[celtxman]

Varejao is nowhere near as complete a player, IMO. Only slightly better defensively, and perhaps not even in a team defense sense. Smith is a terrific passer for a big and would fit beautifully into what what already do.

Only caveat is having two suspect shooters in the lineup with him and Rondo, but imagine Smith in the Baby/Bass role, where he was *only* taking wide-open 18-footers and the occasional post-up against weak matchups. Oh, and he can run the break and finish?

In any event, understand being wary of the contract, but it is a quality over quantity league. We'd be set with a playoff rotation of:

Rondo
Bradley/Terry
Pierce/Green
Smith/Sullinger
KG

I agree it is a quality over quantity league, but for what the Celtics need (and either player is a good fit) the value of Varejao IMO is far more compelling. We need to remember that Garnett is the team's center with Collins as the backup. We all understand like we did years ago, that if KG goes down , the party is over. But with Varejao replacing Garnett at that position, there is much more margin for error in regards to typical injuries and resting KG during the regular season. We all know what happened last season defensively with KG off of the floor. Jeez - let's hope for $9 million per Jeff Green can provide some of the wing excitement, Smith could do. And while Green isn't the defensive player Smith is, he played pretty well against LeBron in the playoffs. We also can't forget what is almost as important as KG signing was the amount he signed for opening the way for the off-season we just had. What would the Celtics have done if he demanded $18 million per? Let him go? We can't underestimate the value of Varejao making $9-10 million in the following years with years that mirror KG, over the prospect of Smith making $16-17 million per over a longer period of time. I would debate which player would be more helpful even if Smith and Varejao made the same money. I think you get high quality for a need that the Celtics have and a great value.

[Captain_Caveman]

Slartibartfast -- Agree. The rest of the rotation would probably have both Jason Collins and a Pietrus type for defensive purposes, but only in spot duty for specific matchups. For the most part, teams rolling with 8 guys in the playoffs, and a bench of Terry, Green and Sullinger can give effective minutes at all 5 positions.

celtxman -- Disagree. I hear what you are saying and kinda like Varejao, but he is an extremely limited player, IMO. Good man defender, especially in the post, and a rebounder. That's it. We'd be playing 3.5 on 5 on offense with him and Rondo out there. Smith brings way more to the table. Also has the defense and rebounding, but also scoring, passing, transition game, shotblocking. I don't think the salary difference would be as pronounced as that either. Smith would probably only make $5m more in any given season, and he is worth it. He's a significantly better player than Varejao is.

[celtxman]

Slartibartfast -- Agree. The rest of the rotation would probably have both Jason Collins and a Pietrus type for defensive purposes, but only in spot duty for specific matchups. For the most part, teams rolling with 8 guys in the playoffs, and a bench of Terry, Green and Sullinger can give effective minutes at all 5 positions.

celtxman -- Disagree. I hear what you are saying and kinda like Varejao, but he is an extremely limited player, IMO. Good man defender, especially in the post, and a rebounder. That's it. We'd be playing 3.5 on 5 on offense with him and Rondo out there. Smith brings way more to the table. Also has the defense and rebounding, but also scoring, passing, transition game, shotblocking. I don't think the salary difference would be as pronounced as that either. Smith would probably only make $5m more in any given season, and he is worth it. He's a significantly better player than Varejao is.

We can agree to disagree a bit on the players....and likely this is all just off-season chatter anyway to keep us busy - with no substance. But going back to the original premise that Smith is on our radar, means a much more difficult time trying to make salaries work, and probably sweetening the pot more from the Celtics end to get another team involved.

[andy582]

Which leads me to Smith. IMO he's simply not that good. Hes a somewhat undersized stretch, uptempo PF-SF tweener with low level scoring skills, inconsistent shooting and generally poor shot selection, no true isolation offensive game. Long term he is going to lose some of that explosiveness and as he does I don't believe he will have the skill or shooting ability to overcome that. On top of that you have to overpay him salary wise and he will IMO remain a fringe all star type. Not the type of guy you make an "all in" deal for.

You just described Shawn Marion, who has been pretty damn helpful on contending teams.. I think you have to consider context w/ Smith's offense- he's always been played as a tweener, and his shot selection and offensive strengths will fit better in a system like ours- look how good Brandon Bass looks when you ask him to stand and shoot. Smith's ceiling is much higher, and his explosiveness makes him an impact defensive player.

[humblebum]

Josh Smith is just ennhhh to me. Marion is a similar guy but he has been capable of playing SF, something Smith hasn't proven. I'd also say that for 15 million per I wouldn't touch Shawn Marion with a fifty foot pole. Would Smith be useful? Of course, do I want to give up our best defensive SG, SF plus a potential starting center -50 games into his career? No I don't because Smith simply isn't THAT good.

I have no interest in trading seven foot rookies before they have a chance to mature in value. Not trading him unless your getting a sure fire HOF has more to do with principle, than it does with impact or projections on potential. Don't trade young assets before they've achieved full value or unless you are getting a sure fire steal of a deal, like a KG or Gasol, etc.

Smith hasn't been a big time boost to the Hawks title chances and it'd be the same story in Boston, except he'd be making more money and would feel immune to coaching playing his "intellectual" brand of ball next to his best bud.

Now like I said if you can go out and rob the Hawks like the Lakers robbed Orlando than go right ahead. But dont put Bradley or the rookies in the deal.

[rickrolled]

Some numbers to consider.

Bass makes 6.5 mill, Why do you think we'll give up a stud like Bradley just for the sake of throwing out his name like that ? If he has a trade bonus,the number goes up.

Lee makes 5 million,havent seen him mentioned.

Why would you give up both Melo and Bradley ?


Bass, Lee, filler, 1st rounder '13, Nets 2nd '14. For Josh Smith, take it or leave it Danny.

[crosko42]

Some numbers to consider.

Bass makes 6.5 mill, Why do you think we'll give up a stud like Bradley just for the sake of throwing out his name like that ? If he has a trade bonus,the number goes up.

Lee makes 5 million,havent seen him mentioned.

Why would you give up both Melo and Bradley ?


Bass, Lee, filler, 1st rounder '13, Nets 2nd '14. For Josh Smith, take it or leave it Danny.

Simple Lee+Bass+1st for Smith straight up works in the Trade Checker.

Maybe they swap a player or two, but if all of Green, Terry, Bradley are healthy during the weeks leading up to the deadline I see this as a deal that could take place.

[Captain_Caveman]

Simple Lee+Bass+1st for Smith straight up works in the Trade Checker.

Maybe they swap a player or two, but if all of Green, Terry, Bradley are healthy during the weeks leading up to the deadline I see this as a deal that could take place.

Might work in the trade checker, but still illegal. We have a $74m hard cap, and Smith has a 15% trade kicker.

[rickrolled]

Simple Lee+Bass+1st for Smith straight up works in the Trade Checker.

Maybe they swap a player or two, but if all of Green, Terry, Bradley are healthy during the weeks leading up to the deadline I see this as a deal that could take place.

Might work in the trade checker, but still illegal. We have a $74m hard cap, and Smith has a 15% trade kicker.

Says on this site https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... TU1E&gid=4

We have a cap number of 72,323,814 $M, that's if Jamar Smith and Kurz are waived.

So we can take in a little more back in salary if i'm not mistaken. Hard cap is 74.3 $M.

If Both Lee and Bass have a combined 15% trade bonus we are 80k over the hard cap, if Bass has 15% and Lee 5% that's enough.

Or if one of Wilcox,Dooling or Collins are part of the deal instead of Christmas/Joseph.

[celtxman]

Simple Lee+Bass+1st for Smith straight up works in the Trade Checker.

Maybe they swap a player or two, but if all of Green, Terry, Bradley are healthy during the weeks leading up to the deadline I see this as a deal that could take place.

Might work in the trade checker, but still illegal. We have a $74m hard cap, and Smith has a 15% trade kicker.

Plus I think you bypassed the part that such a trade would have to wait until mid-January. The other thing is in trying to make salaries fit we forget that Smith is not a shooter and Bass and Lee are. At this stage the wheeling and dealing is done and so is the salary cap, so you're looking at limited options at the vet minimum to pick up a shooter or hoping Jamar Smith can get it done. We ran into problems last year and one of the great things is that as we stand we are now better. If you take Terry as a slight downgrade from Allen, you got quickly upgraded overall with Lee. Bass kept defenses honest. This isn't about re-hashing whether or not to pursue Smith, it's about being honest that he isn't a shooter and being careful to not create a need elsewhere,