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Why Marcus Smart should start at SG

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Re: Why Marcus Smart should start at SG 

Post#321 » by bucknersrevenge » Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:43 am

sam_I_am wrote:
bucknersrevenge wrote:
sam_I_am wrote:
I do realize that. Do you? I didn't start a 14 page thread saying a 19% shooter should start at SG. I didn't start a single of the 20 threads saying we should start Smart at PG and trade Rondo.

Do you realize that in games that don't count he has been less than mediocre! I mean - stop acting like he is a great player when he has done absolutely nothing televised that is worthy of the praise he gets on this site. I will happily agree that this is preseason and doesn't matter if you agree this is preseason and stop pumping up his crappy 19% shooting because of a rumor from Team USA about him that not one of you saw in person or on film and frankly doesn't mean squat compared to the pile of garbage he has compiled in 5 summer league games and a half dozen preseason games.


http://hoopshabit.com/2014/08/01/boston ... -usa-camp/

Even more so is the news that Smart has looked great on the offensive end of the floor, where he struggled shooting in Summer League. Smart has apparently been shooting with confidence right out to the three-point line and has been aggressive offensively in scrimmages.

So against Kyrie Irving, Derrick Rose and John Wall, aggressive offensively, confident. Probably not taking all 3 point shots in this scrimmage. This was 3 months ago. But because of 5 preseason games let's assume that this kid can't get to the hole because he chose to work on his jumpshot during preseason rather than take Tony Wroten off the dribble. Yeah that whole USA Basketball thing must've been a rumor.


I clicked on that link but couldn't find the video of him. Seems like more fanboy hot air based on a practice - not a real NBA game. I will continue to assume he can't get to the hole until he actually succeeds doing it. The latest example was on a steal and missed layup that Green collected and dunked in against Nets. Nice play by Smart defensively but looked slow and earthbound when the layup was altered and missed. A guy like Westbrook finishes that play with a dunk. I just watch and base my opinion on what I see or don't see. Not going by a fanboy fluff piece and a Sam Anico tweet.


Well I'm never going to say that he's as athletic as Westbrook. Westbrook is ridiculous with his athleticism. Smart is a different kind of player than Westbrook is anyway so if your pessimism about Smart is rooted fundamentally in a comparison of his game with Westbrook's game there's really not much left for me to say. If you've watched some of these preseason games he has gotten to the hole on a number of occasions actually. He's just kicked out most every time. Are you sure you didn't just get your hopes up because you "thought" this kid was Westbrook? Speaking of...I'm kind of getting a Westbrook-y vibe from you. Am I right?
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Re: Why Marcus Smart should start at SG 

Post#322 » by ConstableGeneva » Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:29 am

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8OBPBw56Ls[/youtube]
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Re: Why Marcus Smart should start at SG 

Post#323 » by sam_I_am » Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:40 pm

ConstableGeneva wrote:[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8OBPBw56Ls[/youtube]


All star caliber steal. D league caliber layup attempt.
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Re: Why Marcus Smart should start at SG 

Post#324 » by ConstableGeneva » Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:49 pm

sam_I_am wrote:
ConstableGeneva wrote:[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8OBPBw56Ls[/youtube]


All star caliber steal. D league caliber layup attempt.


So the rookie got rattled by a 7-footer coming at him and tried to evade the block by laying it up one step too early. Even some vets bungle those. Watch 1:13. Guy took the hit and still had the strength and presence of mind to finish the play. Some of the fans on here are being too impatient with his development and maybe focusing too much on his weaknesses.
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Re: Why Marcus Smart should start at SG 

Post#325 » by humblebum » Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:49 pm

sam_I_am wrote:
humblebum wrote:
sam_I_am wrote:I'm sorry but I have to still call BS on these lame excuses. If you can get to the rim and dunk with authority - no coach can stop you. If you are shooting 19% from the field you don't pass on a chance to explode to the basket. Pressey is a terrible shooter and jacks up a lot of 3s too - but he gets to the rim a lot. Smart has played a dozen games in a Celtics uniform and he is strictly a jump shooter at NBA level right now. Unfortunately, the Derrick Rose and Westbrook comparisons before the draft simply have no merit. He just doesn't have that game.

Im not saying he never will - I mean the guy is 20, has a lot of heart and drive and is a heck of a talent. Looking at Avery Bradley as a rookie and seeing what he can do now is proof that guys with great character and talent can develop. Billups is a guy who showed more ability as a rookie but many teams gave up on him before he became a stud. Sometimes players don't develop - ie. Marcus Banks. So I suggest we hold off on plans of trading Rondo so we can hand the franchise over to a 19% jump shooter.


You realize he hasn't played a game that counts yet right?

Preseason is a time to work on specific aspects of the game. Have you ever heard of pitchers working on a curveball in spring training?

Look I think people just got caught up in the idea that Smart is this all world scorer, that he was going to slide seemlessly into the SG spot and that he would dominate from the jump. The reality is that this kid is a PG thru and thru and his weak pitch right now is his long ball. So he's working on that and he's focusing on facilitating ball movement.

Does that mean that he'll come out in game 1 of the reg season and be Tony Parker? Of course not. But this idea that we have enough of a sample to compare him to other great point guards is asinine. He didn't forget how to drive the lane or how to jump. Just a little hesitant right now but let's at least give him half a season before we declare he's a glorified spot up shooter who can't drive or finish FFS.


I do realize that. Do you? I didn't start a 14 page thread saying a 19% shooter should start at SG. I didn't start a single of the 20 threads saying we should start Smart at PG and trade Rondo.

Do you realize that in games that don't count he has been less than mediocre! I mean - stop acting like he is a great player when he has done absolutely nothing televised that is worthy of the praise he gets on this site. I will happily agree that this is preseason and doesn't matter if you agree this is preseason and stop pumping up his crappy 19% shooting because of a rumor from Team USA about him that not one of you saw in person or on film and frankly doesn't mean squat compared to the pile of garbage he has compiled in 5 summer league games and a half dozen preseason games.


Well I have never said either of those things. I don't think he should start at Shooting Guard when he is so very clearly a Point. And I believe that there is no way that he should simply replace Rondo unless the team was dead set on tanking again, which I have no interest in seeing the team do.

But where perhaps we split ways is in how we view the player. I think he'll absolutely be a great player in this league and he's already showing signs of that. 20 year old kids don't come into this league as dominant all around defenders and that's pretty much what Marcus is. I've also been really pleased with his BBIQ and his willingness to take shots so early in the process despite not being a great shooter, that shows he has great confidence in himself.

And the team USA stuff is legit. He's a part of that program and as he continues to develop it's a strong possibility he'll stay on the team. In an era of friends wanting to team up in order to win that is very significant. And in the meantime having Rondo there as a mentor is pretty exciting. The sky is the limit for Smart.
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Re: Why Marcus Smart should start at SG 

Post#326 » by GreenBloodedC » Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:19 pm

sam_I_am wrote:All star caliber steal. D league caliber layup attempt.

Chill man. Rondo's not going to be traded. Just enjoy watching Smart grow :wink:
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Re: Why Marcus Smart should start at SG 

Post#327 » by ryaningf » Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:43 pm

StojkoVrankovic wrote:Outside of his lack of aggression, he is playing exactly like he did in college. He is taking the same questionable 3 point shots that he did in college, you don't have to tell him to focus on that aspect. That is his game.

My issue if that the team doesn't seem to know what to do with him. He can't shoot to save his life and isn't a PG regardless of how desperate people want that to be true.


sam_I_am wrote:The only shot Smart can take is an uncontested 3. And they will remain uncontested because he is a dreadful shooter. The idea that he isn't driving because he is being coached that way is BS. He just can't do it at NBA level.

Stop making excuses based on theories that make no sense. If you call it like you see it, you must come to conclusion that Marcus Smart has no NBA caliber scoring ability yet. He has a lot of development to do. But like Avery Bradley, he will get playing time because he can play defense at a superior level.


Slartibartfast wrote:
The 80% 3Pr likely doesn't mean much to the coaches because of how low his overall shot volume is.

He's playing like he's Derek Fisher - a defensive specialist who moves the ball and shoots 3's and only drives when the lane is wide open. Only he's not shooting anywhere near as well as Fish.

This is not the player we want him becoming and it's concerning that he's spending all of preseason playing like it.

And this is not normal. He's the first lottery rookie I've seen come into preseason who has completely abandoned the supposed strength of his offensive game.


Per 36 this preseason he's putting up 9/6/3 on 27% shooting - that's worse than what Phil Pressey put up last year in preseason. He's looked really good defensively, but he's been a turd as a scorer both in terms of efficiency and aggressiveness.


While BfB may ultimately be right on this one--that early season prerogatives and preestablished pecking order are coloring our perception of Marcus' game--all you guys are making super solid points. This isn't the guy we saw in college and it's troubling because that guy we saw in college is somebody we could use RIGHT NOW.

A couple points to add:
1. The Avery Bradley Corollary: when you're smart, humble, work hard, and have strong character traits--you tend to succeed, not only in basketball but in life. So while everything Sam, Slart, and Stoyko are saying rings true, I'm not worried--this kid will get it. He works too hard not to get it. He's too smart not to get it. His shot will improve and he'll start getting into the lane. Whether that's because the coaching staff starts to ask more of him or because a light eventually comes on for Marcus, that's debatable. We don't know his true position--he might not even have a position, who knows--but none of that matters, this kid will be fine.

2. I don't mind all the 3s. That's the way the game is now--3s and layups and abstinence education. I'd prefer he get into the lane more, not even as a scorer but as a prober of the defense, but I think that'll come. I see a lot of caution in his game now. A lot of trying to be a technical PG and not enough of letting his instincts dictate what he does.

3. He's still not a PG, though his ability to resemble one is a fine trick. But that trick is making some forget what this kid does well--SCORING. The neutered Marcus Smart who plays like Derrick Fisher and runs offense and shoots 3s has convinced people like Humble that he's got natural PG skills but all it's convinced me is that we're working with a highly intelligent and highly coachable young man. I had concern about his attitude and self-destructive anger issues last year this time and thru the first month those concerns have not once resurfaced. This kid gets it, and he'll do what you tell him. I also think--based on his college tape--that he's more than able to improvise and play free too. He's not one of these players who needs structure to thrive (like the protypical role player) or who needs chaos to blossom (like a Ricky Davis). He can do both; hell, he can do it all. His versatility is not only his greatest strength, it's what spawns 20 page threads about him and causes all kinds of confusion about who he is and what the Cs have in him as a player. Well, let me set the record straight--we're talking about a guy who can fit a lot of roles on a lot of teams. What he's doing as a 20 year old rookie on this team just doesn't begin to explain the kind of player he'll be in his prime.

4. What BfB is getting at shouldn't be ignored though: Brad seems to have created a preseason role with Marcus that does 2 things: gets him much needed work on the mundane PG things like pace setting, facilitation, initiated offense in a timely manner while also getting him lots of spot up looks from deep. What he's not getting is scoring plays run for him, either in the post or around screens. And also: no P&R reps. When you're busy being the PG on a team that's stressing ball movement, pace, and defense, and you're not getting P&R opportunities, well, it's going to be difficult to generate penetration...because penetration involves one of two things: either a pick or 5-10 seconds to dribble the ball. He's getting neither right now.

5. Why is his role so circumscribed? Because when Rondo gets back Marcus will be off the ball. There's no point prepping Smart as the isolation scoring PG everybody wants him to be when that role just isn't available. Not only is Rondo in his way, Evan Turner is a much better PG option as well. Whether Smart can EVENTUALLY be that guy is a debate for another day--he's not getting the opportunity right now. What he's being groomed as is a defensive game changer, a 3 point bomber, and EVENTUALLY a secondary P&R player who works from the wings. This classic PG training is invaluable right now because it lays the groundwork to get him thinking about better shot selection down the road--something he'll need to work on if he wants to become a scoring PG.

***

A coda:

I'll disagree with Bill on one point--Rondo and Turner won't be staggered in their substitutions. I think they'll play a lot together, and that Rondo/Smart/Turner will be one of our best offensive lineups. Before people saying SPACING let me add that if you play with pace and share the ball then space isn't a concern. Pace creates space, and having 3 P&R players playing at a high pace is very difficult to defend if you surround them with knockdown shooters like KO, Sully, Green, or rolling bigs like Zeller. Plus, I think Rondo/Turner/Smart will all hit enough open 3s to keep the defense honest.

I'm loving this team right now--loving their attention to detail, willingness to play with pace, and the cohesion and adherence to what Brad's laying down. Assuming good health, they will surprise people.
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Re: Why Marcus Smart should start at SG 

Post#328 » by bucknersrevenge » Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:28 pm

ConstableGeneva wrote:
sam_I_am wrote:
ConstableGeneva wrote:[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8OBPBw56Ls[/youtube]


All star caliber steal. D league caliber layup attempt.


So the rookie got rattled by a 7-footer coming at him and tried to evade the block by laying it up one step too early. Even some vets bungle those. Watch 1:13. Guy took the hit and still had the strength and presence of mind to finish the play. Some of the fans on here are being too impatient with his development and maybe focusing too much on his weaknesses.


Well he doesn't play like Westbrook so he already has 1 strike against him.
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Re: Why Marcus Smart should start at SG 

Post#329 » by sam_I_am » Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:43 pm

humblebum wrote:
sam_I_am wrote:
humblebum wrote:
You realize he hasn't played a game that counts yet right?

Preseason is a time to work on specific aspects of the game. Have you ever heard of pitchers working on a curveball in spring training?

Look I think people just got caught up in the idea that Smart is this all world scorer, that he was going to slide seemlessly into the SG spot and that he would dominate from the jump. The reality is that this kid is a PG thru and thru and his weak pitch right now is his long ball. So he's working on that and he's focusing on facilitating ball movement.

Does that mean that he'll come out in game 1 of the reg season and be Tony Parker? Of course not. But this idea that we have enough of a sample to compare him to other great point guards is asinine. He didn't forget how to drive the lane or how to jump. Just a little hesitant right now but let's at least give him half a season before we declare he's a glorified spot up shooter who can't drive or finish FFS.


I do realize that. Do you? I didn't start a 14 page thread saying a 19% shooter should start at SG. I didn't start a single of the 20 threads saying we should start Smart at PG and trade Rondo.

Do you realize that in games that don't count he has been less than mediocre! I mean - stop acting like he is a great player when he has done absolutely nothing televised that is worthy of the praise he gets on this site. I will happily agree that this is preseason and doesn't matter if you agree this is preseason and stop pumping up his crappy 19% shooting because of a rumor from Team USA about him that not one of you saw in person or on film and frankly doesn't mean squat compared to the pile of garbage he has compiled in 5 summer league games and a half dozen preseason games.


Well I have never said either of those things. I don't think he should start at Shooting Guard when he is so very clearly a Point. And I believe that there is no way that he should simply replace Rondo unless the team was dead set on tanking again, which I have no interest in seeing the team do.

But where perhaps we split ways is in how we view the player. I think he'll absolutely be a great player in this league and he's already showing signs of that. 20 year old kids don't come into this league as dominant all around defenders and that's pretty much what Marcus is. I've also been really pleased with his BBIQ and his willingness to take shots so early in the process despite not being a great shooter, that shows he has great confidence in himself.

And the team USA stuff is legit. He's a part of that program and as he continues to develop it's a strong possibility he'll stay on the team. In an era of friends wanting to team up in order to win that is very significant. And in the meantime having Rondo there as a mentor is pretty exciting. The sky is the limit for Smart.


The sky is the limit? Explain to me how a guy who is not fast, is not an elite leaper and has a 19% jump shot reaches the sky? How exactly does this guy score at NBA level? He's also not an elite playmaker so defenders aren't going to be afraid of leaving their man to help out.

I think he is a winner. I think the Derek Fisher analogy is a great one. On a team with a Shaq and a Kobe, Fisher was a guy who made huge plays to wing games. Problem is, we are in need of Shaqs and Kobes and a 2014 lottery pick was supposed to bring us more than a role player with championship intangibles.

I realize I am coming across as negative because I expected too much from this pick. Smart is going to be a great glue guy in NBA for the next 15 years. Kind of like Shane Battier. I can definitely feel good rooting for a guy like that. If we can keep Rondo, hit a home run with one of the bigs in 2015 draft and lure an all star free agent - Marcus will be a guy that gets the big steal that clinches a game 7 - I have no doubt.
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Re: Why Marcus Smart should start at SG 

Post#330 » by KJandHondo35 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:08 pm

ryaningf wrote:
While BfB may ultimately be right on this one--that early season prerogatives and preestablished pecking order are coloring our perception of Marcus' game--all you guys are making super solid points. This isn't the guy we saw in college and it's troubling because that guy we saw in college is somebody we could use RIGHT NOW.

A couple points to add:
1. The Avery Bradley Corollary: when you're smart, humble, work hard, and have strong character traits--you tend to succeed, not only in basketball but in life. So while everything Sam, Slart, and Stoyko are saying rings true, I'm not worried--this kid will get it. He works too hard not to get it. He's too smart not to get it. His shot will improve and he'll start getting into the lane. Whether that's because the coaching staff starts to ask more of him or because a light eventually comes on for Marcus, that's debatable. We don't know his true position--he might not even have a position, who knows--but none of that matters, this kid will be fine.

2. I don't mind all the 3s. That's the way the game is now--3s and layups and abstinence education. I'd prefer he get into the lane more, not even as a scorer but as a prober of the defense, but I think that'll come. I see a lot of caution in his game now. A lot of trying to be a technical PG and not enough of letting his instincts dictate what he does.

3. He's still not a PG, though his ability to resemble one is a fine trick. But that trick is making some forget what this kid does well--SCORING. The neutered Marcus Smart who plays like Derrick Fisher and runs offense and shoots 3s has convinced people like Humble that he's got natural PG skills but all it's convinced me is that we're working with a highly intelligent and highly coachable young man. I had concern about his attitude and self-destructive anger issues last year this time and thru the first month those concerns have not once resurfaced. This kid gets it, and he'll do what you tell him. I also think--based on his college tape--that he's more than able to improvise and play free too. He's not one of these players who needs structure to thrive (like the protypical role player) or who needs chaos to blossom (like a Ricky Davis). He can do both; hell, he can do it all. His versatility is not only his greatest strength, it's what spawns 20 page threads about him and causes all kinds of confusion about who he is and what the Cs have in him as a player. Well, let me set the record straight--we're talking about a guy who can fit a lot of roles on a lot of teams. What he's doing as a 20 year old rookie on this team just doesn't begin to explain the kind of player he'll be in his prime.

4. What BfB is getting at shouldn't be ignored though: Brad seems to have created a preseason role with Marcus that does 2 things: gets him much needed work on the mundane PG things like pace setting, facilitation, initiated offense in a timely manner while also getting him lots of spot up looks from deep. What he's not getting is scoring plays run for him, either in the post or around screens. And also: no P&R reps. When you're busy being the PG on a team that's stressing ball movement, pace, and defense, and you're not getting P&R opportunities, well, it's going to be difficult to generate penetration...because penetration involves one of two things: either a pick or 5-10 seconds to dribble the ball. He's getting neither right now.

5. Why is his role so circumscribed? Because when Rondo gets back Marcus will be off the ball. There's no point prepping Smart as the isolation scoring PG everybody wants him to be when that role just isn't available. Not only is Rondo in his way, Evan Turner is a much better PG option as well. Whether Smart can EVENTUALLY be that guy is a debate for another day--he's not getting the opportunity right now. What he's being groomed as is a defensive game changer, a 3 point bomber, and EVENTUALLY a secondary P&R player who works from the wings. This classic PG training is invaluable right now because it lays the groundwork to get him thinking about better shot selection down the road--something he'll need to work on if he wants to become a scoring PG.

***

A coda:

I'll disagree with Bill on one point--Rondo and Turner won't be staggered in their substitutions. I think they'll play a lot together, and that Rondo/Smart/Turner will be one of our best offensive lineups. Before people saying SPACING let me add that if you play with pace and share the ball then space isn't a concern. Pace creates space, and having 3 P&R players playing at a high pace is very difficult to defend if you surround them with knockdown shooters like KO, Sully, Green, or rolling bigs like Zeller. Plus, I think Rondo/Turner/Smart will all hit enough open 3s to keep the defense honest.

I'm loving this team right now--loving their attention to detail, willingness to play with pace, and the cohesion and adherence to what Brad's laying down. Assuming good health, they will surprise people.


Do we really have that much to add given there been 0 regular season games?

My only thought, I very much agree with the question of "why run Smart as a iso, drive and kick, scoring PG if right now Rondo is on the team and Smart will overlap in playing time with him so he will be off the ball." It would be counter intuitive, if winning is the goal, to develop Smart in the limited preseason time in that role of the "scoring/attack PG". He is smart enough to adapt to the off guard position now and could change if the roster does as well in the future.

My original stance remains, the best version (or potential) of Smart's tangible skills is that "scoring PG". But, right now his role is primarily the off guard so that's what he should learn to do. Thankfully, I think his diverse set of skills will allow him to do that in a productive manner. He wants to win, which is probably his best asset. Ryaningf touches on that as well. His tireless work ethic which is based more on will to win versus personal accolades will push him to succeed in both areas.
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Re: Why Marcus Smart should start at SG 

Post#331 » by Slartibartfast » Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:10 pm

sam_I_am wrote:
humblebum wrote:
sam_I_am wrote:
I do realize that. Do you? I didn't start a 14 page thread saying a 19% shooter should start at SG. I didn't start a single of the 20 threads saying we should start Smart at PG and trade Rondo.

Do you realize that in games that don't count he has been less than mediocre! I mean - stop acting like he is a great player when he has done absolutely nothing televised that is worthy of the praise he gets on this site. I will happily agree that this is preseason and doesn't matter if you agree this is preseason and stop pumping up his crappy 19% shooting because of a rumor from Team USA about him that not one of you saw in person or on film and frankly doesn't mean squat compared to the pile of garbage he has compiled in 5 summer league games and a half dozen preseason games.


Well I have never said either of those things. I don't think he should start at Shooting Guard when he is so very clearly a Point. And I believe that there is no way that he should simply replace Rondo unless the team was dead set on tanking again, which I have no interest in seeing the team do.

But where perhaps we split ways is in how we view the player. I think he'll absolutely be a great player in this league and he's already showing signs of that. 20 year old kids don't come into this league as dominant all around defenders and that's pretty much what Marcus is. I've also been really pleased with his BBIQ and his willingness to take shots so early in the process despite not being a great shooter, that shows he has great confidence in himself.

And the team USA stuff is legit. He's a part of that program and as he continues to develop it's a strong possibility he'll stay on the team. In an era of friends wanting to team up in order to win that is very significant. And in the meantime having Rondo there as a mentor is pretty exciting. The sky is the limit for Smart.


The sky is the limit? Explain to me how a guy who is not fast, is not an elite leaper and has a 19% jump shot reaches the sky? How exactly does this guy score at NBA level? He's also not an elite playmaker so defenders aren't going to be afraid of leaving their man to help out.

I think he is a winner. I think the Derek Fisher analogy is a great one. On a team with a Shaq and a Kobe, Fisher was a guy who made huge plays to wing games. Problem is, we are in need of Shaqs and Kobes and a 2014 lottery pick was supposed to bring us more than a role player with championship intangibles.

I realize I am coming across as negative because I expected too much from this pick. Smart is going to be a great glue guy in NBA for the next 15 years. Kind of like Shane Battier. I can definitely feel good rooting for a guy like that. If we can keep Rondo, hit a home run with one of the bigs in 2015 draft and lure an all star free agent - Marcus will be a guy that gets the big steal that clinches a game 7 - I have no doubt.


I think he's playing like Fish now, but he does have real potential to be significantly better (I agree his ceiling's still quite a bit lower than the sky). The problem is he's not playing to his strengths offensively.

He's playing like Fish when he can't shoot. He should be playing more like a power guard. If he can't match the quickness of Wade or Westbrook attacking off the bounce, he can at least do what Andre Miller did so well - getting a guy on his hip and then tanking him into the paint.

In his prime, Miller got you 16-7-4 on decent efficiency. If Smart can get near there (say 15-5-5) plus his defensive excellence, he's a borderline all-star. He just needs to start playing in a manner that suits his strengths.
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Re: Why Marcus Smart should start at SG 

Post#332 » by humblebum » Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:46 pm

sam_I_am wrote:
humblebum wrote:
sam_I_am wrote:
I do realize that. Do you? I didn't start a 14 page thread saying a 19% shooter should start at SG. I didn't start a single of the 20 threads saying we should start Smart at PG and trade Rondo.

Do you realize that in games that don't count he has been less than mediocre! I mean - stop acting like he is a great player when he has done absolutely nothing televised that is worthy of the praise he gets on this site. I will happily agree that this is preseason and doesn't matter if you agree this is preseason and stop pumping up his crappy 19% shooting because of a rumor from Team USA about him that not one of you saw in person or on film and frankly doesn't mean squat compared to the pile of garbage he has compiled in 5 summer league games and a half dozen preseason games.


Well I have never said either of those things. I don't think he should start at Shooting Guard when he is so very clearly a Point. And I believe that there is no way that he should simply replace Rondo unless the team was dead set on tanking again, which I have no interest in seeing the team do.

But where perhaps we split ways is in how we view the player. I think he'll absolutely be a great player in this league and he's already showing signs of that. 20 year old kids don't come into this league as dominant all around defenders and that's pretty much what Marcus is. I've also been really pleased with his BBIQ and his willingness to take shots so early in the process despite not being a great shooter, that shows he has great confidence in himself.

And the team USA stuff is legit. He's a part of that program and as he continues to develop it's a strong possibility he'll stay on the team. In an era of friends wanting to team up in order to win that is very significant. And in the meantime having Rondo there as a mentor is pretty exciting. The sky is the limit for Smart.


The sky is the limit? Explain to me how a guy who is not fast, is not an elite leaper and has a 19% jump shot reaches the sky? How exactly does this guy score at NBA level? He's also not an elite playmaker so defenders aren't going to be afraid of leaving their man to help out.

I think he is a winner. I think the Derek Fisher analogy is a great one. On a team with a Shaq and a Kobe, Fisher was a guy who made huge plays to wing games. Problem is, we are in need of Shaqs and Kobes and a 2014 lottery pick was supposed to bring us more than a role player with championship intangibles.

I realize I am coming across as negative because I expected too much from this pick. Smart is going to be a great glue guy in NBA for the next 15 years. Kind of like Shane Battier. I can definitely feel good rooting for a guy like that. If we can keep Rondo, hit a home run with one of the bigs in 2015 draft and lure an all star free agent - Marcus will be a guy that gets the big steal that clinches a game 7 - I have no doubt.


People have become biased by watching Rondo so they're having a tough time understanding the slow and steady playmaking ability of Smart.

Rondo is a guy who holds the ball, breaks down the defense with the dribble and then has a variety of high difficulty passes which lead directly to assists.

Smart is a guy who makes all of the simple passes that facilitate touches and build continuity in the offense. As he grows and his role expands we will see more of the higher level playmaking we've seen from Rondo.

Smart is a pretty good leaper, he's strong and broad enough to get to the basket and absorb contact and he's a good enough shooter to be a threat from a variety of areas and especially at the FT line. His biggest growth potential area offensively will be on the low block where he has dominant potential.

He's just getting started though. You're impatience with his development is bordering on the absurd. Just gotta calm down.
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Re: Why Marcus Smart should start at SG 

Post#333 » by Powe-Fessional » Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:13 pm

Is it me, or does it seem like every announcing duo loves Marcus already. Mike and Tommy CLEARLY do already. Mike just laughs at all the plays Smart makes, which in turn makes me laugh. Tommy likes anyone that hustles. Plus these two guys are Celtics guys. But listen to that Nets recap clip (thanks to the person that posted that - I missed the game and really wanted to watch what Smart did). The two guys doing the game sound pretty enamored with the way he plays.
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Re: Why Marcus Smart should start at SG 

Post#334 » by BfB » Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:01 pm

ryaningf wrote:
StojkoVrankovic wrote:Outside of his lack of aggression, he is playing exactly like he did in college. He is taking the same questionable 3 point shots that he did in college, you don't have to tell him to focus on that aspect. That is his game.

My issue if that the team doesn't seem to know what to do with him. He can't shoot to save his life and isn't a PG regardless of how desperate people want that to be true.


sam_I_am wrote:The only shot Smart can take is an uncontested 3. And they will remain uncontested because he is a dreadful shooter. The idea that he isn't driving because he is being coached that way is BS. He just can't do it at NBA level.

Stop making excuses based on theories that make no sense. If you call it like you see it, you must come to conclusion that Marcus Smart has no NBA caliber scoring ability yet. He has a lot of development to do. But like Avery Bradley, he will get playing time because he can play defense at a superior level.


Slartibartfast wrote:
The 80% 3Pr likely doesn't mean much to the coaches because of how low his overall shot volume is.

He's playing like he's Derek Fisher - a defensive specialist who moves the ball and shoots 3's and only drives when the lane is wide open. Only he's not shooting anywhere near as well as Fish.

This is not the player we want him becoming and it's concerning that he's spending all of preseason playing like it.

And this is not normal. He's the first lottery rookie I've seen come into preseason who has completely abandoned the supposed strength of his offensive game.


Per 36 this preseason he's putting up 9/6/3 on 27% shooting - that's worse than what Phil Pressey put up last year in preseason. He's looked really good defensively, but he's been a turd as a scorer both in terms of efficiency and aggressiveness.


While BfB may ultimately be right on this one--that early season prerogatives and preestablished pecking order are coloring our perception of Marcus' game--all you guys are making super solid points. This isn't the guy we saw in college and it's troubling because that guy we saw in college is somebody we could use RIGHT NOW.

A couple points to add:
1. The Avery Bradley Corollary: when you're smart, humble, work hard, and have strong character traits--you tend to succeed, not only in basketball but in life. So while everything Sam, Slart, and Stoyko are saying rings true, I'm not worried--this kid will get it. He works too hard not to get it. He's too smart not to get it. His shot will improve and he'll start getting into the lane. Whether that's because the coaching staff starts to ask more of him or because a light eventually comes on for Marcus, that's debatable. We don't know his true position--he might not even have a position, who knows--but none of that matters, this kid will be fine.

2. I don't mind all the 3s. That's the way the game is now--3s and layups and abstinence education. I'd prefer he get into the lane more, not even as a scorer but as a prober of the defense, but I think that'll come. I see a lot of caution in his game now. A lot of trying to be a technical PG and not enough of letting his instincts dictate what he does.

3. He's still not a PG, though his ability to resemble one is a fine trick. But that trick is making some forget what this kid does well--SCORING. The neutered Marcus Smart who plays like Derrick Fisher and runs offense and shoots 3s has convinced people like Humble that he's got natural PG skills but all it's convinced me is that we're working with a highly intelligent and highly coachable young man. I had concern about his attitude and self-destructive anger issues last year this time and thru the first month those concerns have not once resurfaced. This kid gets it, and he'll do what you tell him. I also think--based on his college tape--that he's more than able to improvise and play free too. He's not one of these players who needs structure to thrive (like the protypical role player) or who needs chaos to blossom (like a Ricky Davis). He can do both; hell, he can do it all. His versatility is not only his greatest strength, it's what spawns 20 page threads about him and causes all kinds of confusion about who he is and what the Cs have in him as a player. Well, let me set the record straight--we're talking about a guy who can fit a lot of roles on a lot of teams. What he's doing as a 20 year old rookie on this team just doesn't begin to explain the kind of player he'll be in his prime.

4. What BfB is getting at shouldn't be ignored though: Brad seems to have created a preseason role with Marcus that does 2 things: gets him much needed work on the mundane PG things like pace setting, facilitation, initiated offense in a timely manner while also getting him lots of spot up looks from deep. What he's not getting is scoring plays run for him, either in the post or around screens. And also: no P&R reps. When you're busy being the PG on a team that's stressing ball movement, pace, and defense, and you're not getting P&R opportunities, well, it's going to be difficult to generate penetration...because penetration involves one of two things: either a pick or 5-10 seconds to dribble the ball. He's getting neither right now.

5. Why is his role so circumscribed? Because when Rondo gets back Marcus will be off the ball. There's no point prepping Smart as the isolation scoring PG everybody wants him to be when that role just isn't available. Not only is Rondo in his way, Evan Turner is a much better PG option as well. Whether Smart can EVENTUALLY be that guy is a debate for another day--he's not getting the opportunity right now. What he's being groomed as is a defensive game changer, a 3 point bomber, and EVENTUALLY a secondary P&R player who works from the wings. This classic PG training is invaluable right now because it lays the groundwork to get him thinking about better shot selection down the road--something he'll need to work on if he wants to become a scoring PG.

***

A coda:

I'll disagree with Bill on one point--Rondo and Turner won't be staggered in their substitutions. I think they'll play a lot together, and that Rondo/Smart/Turner will be one of our best offensive lineups. Before people saying SPACING let me add that if you play with pace and share the ball then space isn't a concern. Pace creates space, and having 3 P&R players playing at a high pace is very difficult to defend if you surround them with knockdown shooters like KO, Sully, Green, or rolling bigs like Zeller. Plus, I think Rondo/Turner/Smart will all hit enough open 3s to keep the defense honest.

I'm loving this team right now--loving their attention to detail, willingness to play with pace, and the cohesion and adherence to what Brad's laying down. Assuming good health, they will surprise people.


"neutered Smart" was a great way to put it. I made a similar comment in an eval during summer league. I think Smart is at his best when he is playing on the edge, which leads to mistakes but also maximizes his impact. However, his ability to scale back and play at this tentative level should greatly benefit his learning curve - how he sees the game and interprets situations. When he goes back to playing full tilt, he'll still make mistakes, but his intent behind his actions should be more in line with sound decion making principles, thus improving his effectiveness despite the relative inefficiencies.

Keeping things simple for him now is the best way for him to learn the NBA game and the team system in general, in my opinion. He is always going to be a bit wild, better for him to observe first and then be let off the chain.
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Re: Why Marcus Smart should start at SG 

Post#335 » by ryaningf » Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:12 pm

BfB wrote:[
Keeping things simple for him now is the best way for him to learn the NBA game and the team system in general, in my opinion. He is always going to be a bit wild, better for him to observe first and then be let off the chain.


Yep, Bill. Because the other way 'round just doesn't work. You can't get that genie back into the bottle. It's exactly how Antoine got ruined, a coach with no accountability let him do what he wanted to in his rookie season
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Re: Why Marcus Smart should start at SG 

Post#336 » by BfB » Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:26 pm

Yes, Westbrook will likely never be as good as he could have been either because Scotty Brooks lets him ISO and shoot off PnR whenever he wants. Some player's can self regulate, others need set standards to work within in order to improve.

My impression is that Smart is more the latter. We could get more production out of him today but at the expense of a superior production to efficiency ratio tomorrow.
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Re: Why Marcus Smart should start at SG 

Post#337 » by threrf23 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:09 pm

In the little bit of preseason action I have watched, I like what I have seen from Marcus. I don't even care about the specifics of what he has or has not done well, bottom line to me is that the guy looks poised and seems to care about doing the right thing for his team in any situation. He seems well grounded. I have no clue whether he will turn out to be a more talented or more valuable player than some drafted below him, but he's a guy I know that I will feel good about rooting for.

I don't really tend to agree with a notion that Westbrook/Antoine types get corrupted by Pitino/Brooks types, even if might get misutilized. Those guys are bad decision-makers (especially Antoine), period. They either don't get it, can't get it, or they don't care about getting it. Basketball isn't football, where you can take time before each play to relay detailed instructions and then count on the majority of your players to follow exact instruction. Even if basketball was football, look at Rich Gannon on the Raiders years back. Jon Gruden if I am not mistaken, was responsible for calling all plays and audibles from the sidelines. He played well but when you want to take things to the next level, you need a QB capable of reacting to what he sees in real time.

A coaching staff can encourage the development of habits and can micromanage a player to get the most from him. But it shouldn't make a player more or less valuable, generally speaking, and it becomes a less viable option when you are talking about a player that you expect to play a QB-esque role for your team, and there is more to it than meets the eye when part of your job as coach is to maintain motivation and morale.

I mean, I don't even necessarily disagree with you guys above me, I guess I'm just saying that I don't think Westbrook would be more valuable nor a better player without Brooks so much as I think the Thunder would simply be better. I don't think Antoine would have developed into a capable decision-making if he wasn't coached by Pitino/JOB early on - and I mean it's not like Antoine is the only shot-happy player who was coached by Pitino in college but I think that has more to do with the type of player that Pitino appeals to, and chooses to recruit because he knows that he knows how to appeal to the guy.

I guess I'm kinda just saying that if Marcus had a lot of Westbrook/Antoine in him, if he had to be taught to play within his team, if he had to be micromanaged in order to serve his team, I would be a fan of developing him and trading him.
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Re: Why Marcus Smart should start at SG 

Post#338 » by threrf23 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:25 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
He's playing like he's Derek Fisher - a defensive specialist who moves the ball and shoots 3's and only drives when the lane is wide open. Only he's not shooting anywhere near as well as Fish.


And you know, it's extremely disappointing that Marcus has not been shooting the trey well, because he has been in the league for many years now and is coming up on what 20 years old and you would think he would have become the next Ray Allen by now.

I always liked Derek Fisher's game and if Marcus were to develop into a rich man's Derek Fisher, it wouldn't bother me.
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Re: Why Marcus Smart should start at SG 

Post#339 » by sam_I_am » Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:51 pm

threrf23 wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
He's playing like he's Derek Fisher - a defensive specialist who moves the ball and shoots 3's and only drives when the lane is wide open. Only he's not shooting anywhere near as well as Fish.


And you know, it's extremely disappointing that Marcus has not been shooting the trey well, because he has been in the league for many years now and is coming up on what 20 years old and you would think he would have become the next Ray Allen by now.

I always liked Derek Fisher's game and if Marcus were to develop into a rich man's Derek Fisher, it wouldn't bother me.


I hate to break it to you, but Marcus is never going to be a great shooter - just like vastly more talented players like Westbrook and Derek Rose will never be either. Ray Allen was an awesome shooter at age 16. Marcus could be adequate in 5 years - but he'll never be a guy that a defender sticks to like glue running over picks out of fear he gets 1 extra inch to get a shot off like 2008 Ray. And that is why it is so depressing that he has none of the elite basket making ability of other non-shooting PGs like Westbrook and Rose or Rondo.
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Re: Why Marcus Smart should start at SG 

Post#340 » by bbd24 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:56 pm

sam_I_am wrote:
threrf23 wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
He's playing like he's Derek Fisher - a defensive specialist who moves the ball and shoots 3's and only drives when the lane is wide open. Only he's not shooting anywhere near as well as Fish.


And you know, it's extremely disappointing that Marcus has not been shooting the trey well, because he has been in the league for many years now and is coming up on what 20 years old and you would think he would have become the next Ray Allen by now.

I always liked Derek Fisher's game and if Marcus were to develop into a rich man's Derek Fisher, it wouldn't bother me.


I hate to break it to you, but Marcus is never going to be a great shooter - just like vastly more talented players like Westbrook and Derek Rose will never be either. Ray Allen was an awesome shooter at age 16. Marcus could be adequate in 5 years - but he'll never be a guy that a defender sticks to like glue running over picks out of fear he gets 1 extra inch to get a shot off like 2008 Ray. And that is why it is so depressing that he has none of the elite basket making ability of other non-shooting PGs like Westbrook and Rose or Rondo.


Can he change the game on the other end though ? Basketball is more than just shooting from the outside. Especially since you're not the one shooting the ball every time down the court.

He's obviously only 20, so it's tough to say what this guy won't be able to do 5-7 years down the road. He's just getting started.

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