Revote: Where is Evan Turner best Positioned at?

[Valid]

Not sure why for the Turner hate because I think he's got a good chance of being our crunch time player.

Maybe this season, but if Evan Turner is our crunchtime player in two or three years, something is seriously wrong.

[Parliament10]

Evan Turner doesn't plan to let up
By Chris Forsberg | ESPNBoston.com | October 12, 2014



http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/i ... tics-count

Now every second matters to Turner, regardless of whether it's practice reps, film sessions or preseason game action. And that's why he was out there on Saturday harassing Anthony. Turner never has been regarded as a particularly inspired defender, but he's been challenged to become one with the Patriots. And one night after chasing Toronto's DeMar DeRozan, Turner gamely checked Anthony -- maybe a little too intensely for what New York's star player expected out of a breezy exhibition....

Where can the Celtics play him? Well, that's a bit more difficult. Rookie Marcus Smart has displayed NBA-ready defense that could give Stevens the confidence to pair him with Avery Bradley in the team's backcourt until Rondo returns. Jeff Green, the incumbent at small forward, has missed the first four games of the exhibition season with a calf strain and might have to reassert himself a bit when he returns to ensure he holds that spot. Stevens hasn't been bashful in suggesting that all starting and rotation jobs are available to those willing to earn them.

One thing is clear: Turner is going to get minutes, one way or another. He may be Boston's best player at getting to the rim and can create for others in the process. Turner struggles to finish at the basket, but he's one of the few Celtics who can get there off the dribble. And he's been excellent in transition, which plays into Stevens' desire to be more of an up-tempo offense.

[sully00]

Not really sure what you've been watching but two teams decided he's not worth the problem. He's inefficient, needs the ball in his hands to have an influence on the game, bad shooter, very overrated defender and a problem in the locker room (and on the floor when unhappy). What you wish he is is an ideal replacement for Lance, yet pacers dumped him as soon as they could.

Perception is everything. Turner is also a player who failed to live up to the stardom of the #2 pick but at the same time improved every season and has topped out as a guy putting up 17/6/4 after 4 years. Sure he wasn't great in his 27 game cameo in IND but they were awful as a team and he was coming off the bench.

I am going to guess the list of guys in Boston that have avg 17 points, 6 reb, and 4 asts a game is a short list and I mean any one of those 3 things and this guy did all 3. To dismiss Evan Turner is to vastly overrate the talent on this team and probably the league in general.

[sully00]

Turner proved in his four years that he's a marginal player. I see no point of having him on the rebuilding team. And he's just not good enough for a contender. End of bench is where he fits best.

Not feeling this at all. Tuner got to prove his first 3 years he wasn't Ray Allen. He is a versatile and talented player but not really a flexible player his strengths are strengths and his weaknesses are those too. His biggest problem was that he played with another guy who had the exact same skill set in Iguodala and there is only one basketball.

I don't think Turner is quite as good as Iguodala but in 3/4 of a season he did a pretty good impression when he got a hold of that role. Conversely now we see what Iguodala looks like without the ball in his hands over the last two seasons. Still a valuable role player but not worth his check.

Except Iguodala is an elite defender and Turner is...not.

Sorry, but I can't get down with the Turner/Iguodala comparison at all. Iguodala has great value as a defensive stopper alone, and his perimeter jumper is at least bearable. Sure, the book on Iguodala is that he can't shoot, but he has a career TS% of 55.1 percent. Turner's is 48.5 percent.

I personally think some of the excuses being made for Turner are ridiculous.

"He was on a bad team."

"He was in a bad system."

"He was in a bad locker room."

"He was playing with someone who had the same skillset."

The fact of the matter is that if Turner were any good in his first four seasons, none of that should have mattered. Would it have hindered his performance a bit? Sure, but not enough to post the kinds of paltry efficiency numbers he did, and as far as I'm concerned, the system and Iguodala should have had no ill effects on his defense at all. As a matter of fact, Iggy's presence should have helped him defensively.

I'm really rooting for the dude because he has an incredible and heartbreaking life story, but I'm just calling it how I see it. He has not been a good NBA player thus far in his career regardless of all of the extenuating circumstances everyone keeps coming up with here to excuse his poor production.

Iguodala an elite defender now? Explain his game now. For real this conversation is a clown show. Iggy goes to two other teams and is a statistical joke but that doesn't matter Turner had to be better then him in a crap role. How is Iggy a good player now if Turner has never been a good player? It isn't that the guy is Lebron or anything but the fact that it hasn't come easy means he is crap I am sorry that means we need to look in mirror pretty hard about the other guys on the roster.

[BadWolf]

He isn't? Didn't look into advanced stats but I thought everyone thinks he's a top wing defender.

[Valid]

Not feeling this at all. Tuner got to prove his first 3 years he wasn't Ray Allen. He is a versatile and talented player but not really a flexible player his strengths are strengths and his weaknesses are those too. His biggest problem was that he played with another guy who had the exact same skill set in Iguodala and there is only one basketball.

I don't think Turner is quite as good as Iguodala but in 3/4 of a season he did a pretty good impression when he got a hold of that role. Conversely now we see what Iguodala looks like without the ball in his hands over the last two seasons. Still a valuable role player but not worth his check.

Except Iguodala is an elite defender and Turner is...not.

Sorry, but I can't get down with the Turner/Iguodala comparison at all. Iguodala has great value as a defensive stopper alone, and his perimeter jumper is at least bearable. Sure, the book on Iguodala is that he can't shoot, but he has a career TS% of 55.1 percent. Turner's is 48.5 percent.

I personally think some of the excuses being made for Turner are ridiculous.

"He was on a bad team."

"He was in a bad system."

"He was in a bad locker room."

"He was playing with someone who had the same skillset."

The fact of the matter is that if Turner were any good in his first four seasons, none of that should have mattered. Would it have hindered his performance a bit? Sure, but not enough to post the kinds of paltry efficiency numbers he did, and as far as I'm concerned, the system and Iguodala should have had no ill effects on his defense at all. As a matter of fact, Iggy's presence should have helped him defensively.

I'm really rooting for the dude because he has an incredible and heartbreaking life story, but I'm just calling it how I see it. He has not been a good NBA player thus far in his career regardless of all of the extenuating circumstances everyone keeps coming up with here to excuse his poor production.

Iguodala an elite defender now? Explain his game now. For real this conversation is a clown show. Iggy goes to two other teams and is a statistical joke but that doesn't matter Turner had to be better then him in a crap role. How is Iggy a good player now if Turner has never been a good player? It isn't that the guy is Lebron or anything but the fact that it hasn't come easy means he is crap I am sorry that means we need to look in mirror pretty hard about the other guys on the roster.

Sorry, but when hasn't Iguodala been an elite defender? I mean, are you serious with this?

And Iguodala has been a statistical joke? Really? Do you even look at stats before you post stuff like this?

Iggy had a TS% of 57 percent and an eFG% of 54.8 percent last season. He even shot a respectable 35.4 percent from three while shooting a solid 48 percent from the floor.

Defensively, teams averaged 99 points per 100 possessions with Iguodala on the court and 106 with him off the court.

I'm not even a huge Iguodala fan (never have been), but let's call a spade a spade here.

I also don't know why you keep bringing up "other guys on the roster" because that has nothing to do with Turner as an individual player, but if you want to go that route, fine. Jared Sullinger is entering his third year and could make a big leap at the age of 22. Kelly Olynyk was awesome in the second half of last season and is going into his sophomore campaign. Marcus Smart and James Young are extremely talented rookies.

Likening Turner to a lot of the guys on this roster just isn't fair.

[ryaningf]

I also don't know why you keep bringing up "other guys on the roster" because that has nothing to do with Turner as an individual player, but if you want to go that route, fine. Jared Sullinger is entering his third year and could make a big leap at the age of 22. Kelly Olynyk was awesome in the second half of last season and is going into his sophomore campaign. Marcus Smart and James Young are extremely talented rookies.

Likening Turner to a lot of the guys in this roster just isn't fair.

Turner's our 2nd best player (behind Rondo) and we got him because nobody in the league really wanted the headache. Make of that what you will (and I'm confident we got a steal but only time with tell), but we got Turner through what are traditionally a guy's prime years (25-27); those years when he's still got the youthful athleticism but also has added experience and confidence. I like our youth too, but Turner is a pro and he produces. Sully rivals him as a scorer and Olynyk as a high BBIQ passer type, but outside of Rondo there isn't a guy on the team with his skillset and it's not even close.

Apropos of nothing, but I wouldn't even rate Jeff Green as a top 5 player on this team anymore....

Rondo
Turner
Sully
Olynyk
Bradley
Green
Smart

Ranks 4-6 are fluid and Sully/Olynyk too.

In answer to this tread, Turner's best position is the one that allows him to see the most court time on this team.

[FakeScreenName123]

Iguodala an elite defender now?

It's weird when a Celtic fan of all the teams fans swings and misses re: defense.

[bucknersrevenge]

I also don't know why you keep bringing up "other guys on the roster" because that has nothing to do with Turner as an individual player, but if you want to go that route, fine. Jared Sullinger is entering his third year and could make a big leap at the age of 22. Kelly Olynyk was awesome in the second half of last season and is going into his sophomore campaign. Marcus Smart and James Young are extremely talented rookies.

Likening Turner to a lot of the guys in this roster just isn't fair.

Turner's our 2nd best player (behind Rondo) and we got him because nobody in the league really wanted the headache. Make of that what you will (and I'm confident we got a steal but only time with tell), but we got Turner through what are traditionally a guy's prime years (25-27); those years when he's still got the youthful athleticism but also has added experience and confidence. I like our youth too, but Turner is a pro and he produces. Sully rivals him as a scorer and Olynyk as a high BBIQ passer type, but outside of Rondo there isn't a guy on the team with his skillset and it's not even close.

Apropos of nothing, but I wouldn't even rate Jeff Green as a top 5 player on this team anymore....

Rondo
Turner
Sully
Olynyk
Bradley
Green
Smart

Ranks 4-6 are fluid and Sully/Olynyk too.

In answer to this tread, Turner's best position is the one that allows him to see the most court time on this team.

Really? I would still have Green at the lowest 4th. I think his all-around game is still much better than Olynyk's. Either way, not a terrible problem to have when your 4th or 6th best player is capable of hanging 43 on Lebron and the Miami Heat. There is still a lot of talent there if no longer the expectation of greater. With the pace we're playing with these days I think that can do nothing but help Green.

[bigdavid]

I have followed Turner most of his career, he is a solid player but not flashy. People mistake that for lack of talent. This is untrue. Turner can play multiple positions and play them well. It is important for the coach to have confidence in him. Collins pulled him for any mistake yet he still managed over 17+ points a game even for a bad team this is good.

It seems that Boston has confidence in him and the Celts will be rewarded. Turners main problem s finishing at the rim. I hope he can figure that out.

[ryaningf]

I also don't know why you keep bringing up "other guys on the roster" because that has nothing to do with Turner as an individual player, but if you want to go that route, fine. Jared Sullinger is entering his third year and could make a big leap at the age of 22. Kelly Olynyk was awesome in the second half of last season and is going into his sophomore campaign. Marcus Smart and James Young are extremely talented rookies.

Likening Turner to a lot of the guys in this roster just isn't fair.

Turner's our 2nd best player (behind Rondo) and we got him because nobody in the league really wanted the headache. Make of that what you will (and I'm confident we got a steal but only time with tell), but we got Turner through what are traditionally a guy's prime years (25-27); those years when he's still got the youthful athleticism but also has added experience and confidence. I like our youth too, but Turner is a pro and he produces. Sully rivals him as a scorer and Olynyk as a high BBIQ passer type, but outside of Rondo there isn't a guy on the team with his skillset and it's not even close.

Apropos of nothing, but I wouldn't even rate Jeff Green as a top 5 player on this team anymore....

Rondo
Turner
Sully
Olynyk
Bradley
Green
Smart

Ranks 4-6 are fluid and Sully/Olynyk too.

In answer to this tread, Turner's best position is the one that allows him to see the most court time on this team.

Really? I would still have Green at the lowest 4th. I think his all-around game is still much better than Olynyk's. Either way, not a terrible problem to have when your 4th or 6th best player is capable of hanging 43 on Lebron and the Miami Heat. There is still a lot of talent there if no longer the expectation of greater. With the pace we're playing with these days I think that can do nothing but help Green.

If we can play with pace, truly make it a habit, and Green gets a good chunk of minutes at 4, I think he can have a hell of a year.

That said, KO and Sully and their ability to space the court, pass, and play with or without the ball is much more important to this team that whatever it is that Jeff provides on a nightly basis. As such, I rate them as better players. Factor in age and salary and it's really not even close in terms of impact.

[Slartibartfast]

I also don't know why you keep bringing up "other guys on the roster" because that has nothing to do with Turner as an individual player, but if you want to go that route, fine. Jared Sullinger is entering his third year and could make a big leap at the age of 22. Kelly Olynyk was awesome in the second half of last season and is going into his sophomore campaign. Marcus Smart and James Young are extremely talented rookies.

Likening Turner to a lot of the guys in this roster just isn't fair.

Turner's our 2nd best player (behind Rondo) and we got him because nobody in the league really wanted the headache. Make of that what you will (and I'm confident we got a steal but only time with tell), but we got Turner through what are traditionally a guy's prime years (25-27); those years when he's still got the youthful athleticism but also has added experience and confidence. I like our youth too, but Turner is a pro and he produces. Sully rivals him as a scorer and Olynyk as a high BBIQ passer type, but outside of Rondo there isn't a guy on the team with his skillset and it's not even close.

Apropos of nothing, but I wouldn't even rate Jeff Green as a top 5 player on this team anymore....

Rondo
Turner
Sully
Olynyk
Bradley
Green
Smart

Ranks 4-6 are fluid and Sully/Olynyk too.

In answer to this tread, Turner's best position is the one that allows him to see the most court time on this team.

I think 2-6 are fluid, though AB is making a good case for 6th with his offensive decision making (great when it goes in, but even Thornton doesn't shoot on every single touch).

Turner's case for 2nd best player is about as good as Green's - he's a much, much better rebounder/passer/handler, but he's an inefficiency nightmare. Not explosive or powerful enough to finish consistently at the rim, and in love with the worst zones on the floor (about half of his shots from 10-20 feet, where he shoots a pedestrian 40%). A below average and reluctant 3-point shooter. Doesn't play well off of others. His defense is good, but he's not big or long enough to match up with the power 3s that dominate the league.

Contrast with Green, who, while an apathetic rebounder and a severely limited passer/handler at the 3, is a much more efficient scorer at comparable volume, more capable of playing off others (and even a little better than Turner when it comes to getting his own) and a more valuable defender due to his ability to match up with more dangerous scorers.

[ryaningf]

I also don't know why you keep bringing up "other guys on the roster" because that has nothing to do with Turner as an individual player, but if you want to go that route, fine. Jared Sullinger is entering his third year and could make a big leap at the age of 22. Kelly Olynyk was awesome in the second half of last season and is going into his sophomore campaign. Marcus Smart and James Young are extremely talented rookies.

Likening Turner to a lot of the guys in this roster just isn't fair.

Turner's our 2nd best player (behind Rondo) and we got him because nobody in the league really wanted the headache. Make of that what you will (and I'm confident we got a steal but only time with tell), but we got Turner through what are traditionally a guy's prime years (25-27); those years when he's still got the youthful athleticism but also has added experience and confidence. I like our youth too, but Turner is a pro and he produces. Sully rivals him as a scorer and Olynyk as a high BBIQ passer type, but outside of Rondo there isn't a guy on the team with his skillset and it's not even close.

Apropos of nothing, but I wouldn't even rate Jeff Green as a top 5 player on this team anymore....

Rondo
Turner
Sully
Olynyk
Bradley
Green
Smart

Ranks 4-6 are fluid and Sully/Olynyk too.

In answer to this tread, Turner's best position is the one that allows him to see the most court time on this team.

I think 2-6 are fluid, though AB is making a good case for 6th with his offensive decision making (great when it goes in, but even Thornton doesn't shoot on every single touch).

Turner's case for 2nd best player is about as good as Green's - he's a much, much better rebounder/passer/handler, but he's an inefficiency nightmare. Not explosive or powerful enough to finish consistently at the rim, and in love with the worst zones on the floor (about half of his shots from 10-20 feet, where he shoots a pedestrian 40%). A below average and reluctant 3-point shooter. Doesn't play well off of others. His defense is good, but he's not big or long enough to match up with the power 3s that dominate the league.

Contrast with Green, who, while an apathetic rebounder and a severely limited passer/handler at the 3, is a much more efficient scorer at comparable volume, more capable of playing off others (and even a little better than Turner when it comes to getting his own) and a more valuable defender due to his ability to match up with more dangerous scorers.

That's fair, my rankings take into account the team's needs, so KO/Sully/Turner get a boost because what they do well is not present in much of the rest of the roster.

What tips the scale in Evan's direction is that he can make contributions when his shot isn't falling, Green is feast or famine on that account, just doesn't do enough that isn't scoring related.

Not only should Turner push Green into more 4 usage, he should push Smart into more 2/3 usage. Not only is Turner the better PG, Smart's team and help defense is much more devastating when he defends the 2/3. A lot of time spent defending the ball as the PG defender means less time patrolling passing lanes and playing help defense. Given this team's woos inside, I think you want Smart roaming, not necessarily manning up guys on the perimeter. So-so defenders like Turner are more effective, IMO, when they're asked to guard the ball. It's a simpler assignment mentally, harder to fall asleep when the guy you guard has the ball all the time. It's the so-so defenders who fall asleep weakside, forget to rotate or contest, and get caught on screens. I'd put Green in that category too, his focus wanes when he's not participating directly in the action.

[BadWolf]

I'm surprised with all this love for Turner
some of his stats last year
his highest career PErRis 12
highest TS 49.8
highest 3p% 36 (outlier, he's career 3p% is 32)
i think you have your views skewed with the Legend of Turner, the man he was supposed to be

[165bows]

I don't really see being able to rank him any higher than sixth on this squad in terms of importance or skill. Maybe seventh actually.

[165bows]

Just some perspective on what he's done so far, Turner has shot .406 from the floor, 3/5 from 3, and 18/24 from the line. He's averaged 11.8 points in 27 minutes, with 6 rebounds and 4.3 assists. So pretty much in line with what he has done in the past. IF he can keep getting to the line like that it's a huge improvement, but these are some bottom dwellers they've been playing for the most part.

[Slartibartfast]

Just some perspective on what he's done so far, Turner has shot .406 from the floor, 3/5 from 3, and 18/24 from the line. He's averaged 11.8 points in 27 minutes, with 6 rebounds and 4.3 assists. So pretty much in line with what he has done in the past. IF he can keep getting to the line like that it's a huge improvement, but these are some bottom dwellers they've been playing for the most part.

Per 36 that's 16/8/6 with 8fta, which is pretty studly. I agree that the comp. sucks, but those are pretty studly numbers, even with the usual FG% and shot distribution problems (the amount of damage Jordan & Kobe did inspiring a generation of wings to specialize in the mid-post fallaway is incalculable).

[Slartibartfast]

Of course, Bass is putting up 20/7/3 over the same time frame so...

[voodooguru]

I'm a Sixers phan who, as a young vinnie del, saw Wilt Chamberlain play for both the Philadelphia Warriors and the Philadelphia 76ers.

The one "thing" missin' from y'alls ET debate is Doug Collins. If you want me to do the research on Doug's overbearing, hyper-emotional, failed stints in Chicago, DETROIT, and Washington I will. I do believe that some guy named Michael Jordan once said that Doug Collins cried e'ry day.

My one-fan's-opinion might sound, in part, crazy, but this is it, summarized :

1. Doug Collins intentionally ruined ET's development. Doug is real close with Jrue Holiday's daddy and was determined to make Jrue The Man in Illadelphia. Jrue's daddy, Jrue and Doug are all 24-7-365 christians, which deepened Doug's devotion to making Jrue a star (the crazy part?). ET was a Number Two pick on-baller who could easily crash Doug's donkey cart.

2 Doug didn't want ET coming out of college, he wanted a big. That was fair enough, but the GM (Stiff-phan-ski?) took the BPA, ET.

3. ET recently said that anyone who tries to make him a catch and shoot player is no genius. That's exactly what Doug did. Exclusively. On 75ish% of offensive sets he had ET come down the court and plant himself behind the arc in the corner and raise his hand if he was open. It's true, he had Holiday and some Iguodala to initiate his "offence", but thanks to your coach, you guys already know how effective ET can be on the ball.

4. I'm not saying that ET would have made a better PG than Jrue, but dang - ET had just won the NCAA MVP playing on the ball, you'd think he'd get some time there. Jrue would have been better at SG than PG, but Doug wanted him to have the spotlight, exclusively

5. I don't remember exactly when it was but there was a stretch of 5 games, coinciding with a rare (only?) trip to Philly by ET's "agent", where ET spent most of the games at PG on offence. The team won four of five, scored over a century in 4 and 90+ in the other, and e'rybody (ET, Holiday and Enigmadala) got theirs. In the sixth game Evan was back in the corner (for the duration) waving his hand. Predicatbly, the losing, losing, losing recommenced and Doug got fired [EDIT-resigned before he got fired] from his final coaching job.

Right from the beginning Doug would bench ET after every mistake and after virtually every little run of form. Compare John "Two Major Injuries" Wall's career minutes with Evan's, and while you're there compare their shooting percentage. Don't worry about "Brick" Wall's turnovers, Evan has yet to spend any significant time on the ball like Wall.

If anything good came out of the Reverend Doctor Doogie Wowser, NBA Coach/Couch's utterly cactus approach to ET, it's that Evan can probably hit the trey at at a break even percentage, he has a money stop and pop on the baseline, and he can play some decent SF. My ideal perimeter for Philly was ET - PG/SF, Jrue SG/PG and Enigmadala SF/PtF (o-f-o).

In a way, the Celtics are ET's first team. Your coach knows his game. As an old-arsed Philly phan I'd venture to say that in spite of his ill treatment in "'Illy", he's still got what could end up as Ye Olde Celtic Spirit.

We're megalithic, ocean-going supertankers in Philly, good luck with ET y'all. He could do 14-5-5, minimum.

OT - Turner's middle name is Marcel. My full nickname for him was He's NOT the Doctor, he's the EMT, and EMT for short, e'ryday use.

[bigdavid]

Great post!