Top Celtics off all time?

[OBisHalJordan]

Depends on how you measure things. Bird combined the best all around play with a dominant impact on his teams' successes, while there's no question that Russell had the greatest impact of any Celtic on any of their teams, but wasn't the best all around player. So who would you put one, and who would you put two in that regard? While I tend to appreciate the combination of success and all around play, I just cannot in any way deny Bill Russell. He's the exception to me. So, while I place him at one because he was SO impactful on the game, my 2 through 10 falls in line with more of the blend.

1. Bill Russell
2. Larry Bird
3. John Havlicek
4. Dave Cowens
5. Kevin McHale
6. Bob Cousy
7. Sam Jones
8. Robert Parish
9. Paul Pierce
10. Tommy Heinsohn
11. Jo Jo White

It's really not easy at all to rank these guys. Pierce and Bird are my favorites to watch, but I have to respect what they've all done. We're very lucky as fans to have had such a privilege to have them represent Boston.

I'm going to be "devils avocado" (any body get the reference?) here. I think Russell is massively overrated. No doubt, he made his team the way no other players or few others players have. No doubt, he transformed the game. And, most importantly, he was a figure that transcended basketball and held some social importance.

But, if we compare him as player to all other basketball players in all eras on the game, I don't think he's the clear cut number one Celtic. I think that has to go to Bird. As far as player comparisons go, I wonder if Russell is better than prime (i.e. Minny) KG? If we take in account when they played, I put Russel at number 1 but, all things equal and comparing them as players out of their times, I don think think you can make that case.

The same thing goes with Cousy. Rondo is a better player. Period. Cousy was important to basketball and more accomplished in his career but, if you put Rondo in a time machine, and put him on the Celtics in the 1950s, Cousy would be his back up.

[rzzzzz]

Lakers had West and Baylor and could never get past the Celtics. The Sixers won in '67 with a fantastically talented team that has often been referred to as GOAT. But that same roster lost to the Celtics year after year otherwise. Stats and even film don't give you how Russell won all those championships at USF and Boston. simply the greatest competitor in the history of team sports.

[ermocrate]

I think that either Bill Russell and Larry Bird are massively underrated, both are in the GOAT discussion along with MJ imho. I would choose Larry over Bill just because he is physically in disadvantage and still dominant.

[tlee324]

Depends on how you measure things. Bird combined the best all around play with a dominant impact on his teams' successes, while there's no question that Russell had the greatest impact of any Celtic on any of their teams, but wasn't the best all around player. So who would you put one, and who would you put two in that regard? While I tend to appreciate the combination of success and all around play, I just cannot in any way deny Bill Russell. He's the exception to me. So, while I place him at one because he was SO impactful on the game, my 2 through 10 falls in line with more of the blend.

1. Bill Russell
2. Larry Bird
3. John Havlicek
4. Dave Cowens
5. Kevin McHale
6. Bob Cousy
7. Sam Jones
8. Robert Parish
9. Paul Pierce
10. Tommy Heinsohn
11. Jo Jo White

It's really not easy at all to rank these guys. Pierce and Bird are my favorites to watch, but I have to respect what they've all done. We're very lucky as fans to have had such a privilege to have them represent Boston.

I'm going to be "devils avocado" (any body get the reference?) here. I think Russell is massively overrated. No doubt, he made his team the way no other players or few others players have. No doubt, he transformed the game. And, most importantly, he was a figure that transcended basketball and held some social importance.

But, if we compare him as player to all other basketball players in all eras on the game, I don't think he's the clear cut number one Celtic. I think that has to go to Bird. As far as player comparisons go, I wonder if Russell is better than prime (i.e. Minny) KG? If we take in account when they played, I put Russel at number 1 but, all things equal and comparing them as players out of their times, I don think think you can make that case.

The same thing goes with Cousy. Rondo is a better player. Period. Cousy was important to basketball and more accomplished in his career but, if you put Rondo in a time machine, and put him on the Celtics in the 1950s, Cousy would be his back up.

Like I said in my original post, it depends on what you're using as a measurement. There were better all around players in NBA history over Bill Russell, but I don't think there were many that impacted teams and the overall game more than he. So he's my number one based on that.

I will say this... yes there were better all around players in history than Bill Russell, but to call someone who has accomplished what he's accomplished overrated is absurd.

[Curmudgeon]

1.Russell
2. Bird
3. McHale
4. Havlicek
5. everyone else

[exculpatory]

Russell
Bird
Hondo/Truth
Truth/Hondo
McHale/Cowens/Cousy in some order
Sam
00
Jo Jo

Truth will retire in 6/2017 as the TWELTH leading scorer in NBA history after 19 years of ENDURING excellence - including FIFTEEN years as a Celtic legend.

Caveat: It remains inordinately absurd to compare players across positions & across generations - especially the 60s VS the last 20 years.

[stepbackj34]

Russell
Bird
Hondo/Truth
Truth/Hondo
McHale/Cowens/Cousy in some order
Sam
00
Jo Jo

Truth will retire in 6/2017 as the TWELTH leading scorer in NBA history after 19 years of ENDURING excellence - including FIFTEEN years as a Celtic legend.

Caveat: It remains inordinately absurd to compare players across positions & across generations - especially the 60s VS the last 20 years.

Agreed. Cmon do people really believe Hondo was better than Paul Pierce? What a freaking joke.
What would a complete player like Pierce do in the 60s? lmao
Tom Heinson has seen every great Celtics team and he called Pierce the best scorer in celtics history. You guys still take for granted the complete player that Pierce was. Other than Jordan and Kobe, I've never seen another player with a more complete offensive game than Pierce. Now of course there's tons of players that were better(i.e lebron) but Pierce had that once in a gen all around game imo. Maybe because I actually play bball do I appreaciate Pierce's skill and level of player he was. Bird was better, yeah, but this franchise will never have another Paul Pierce.

[31to6]

**it's happening** wrt Cousy and Hondo underappreciation.

[soxfan2003]

If we are hypothetically talking a single season my top 5 becomes 1) Bird during one of his MVP years 2) 2008 KG 3) McHale -- a somewhat risky choice because of the rule changes 4) Paul Pierce 5) Russell This just assumes the older players have 3-12 months to adapt to the modern game.

Once we start weighing longevity with the Celtics, how well they did for their times and how long they played with the Celtics at a high level my list changes.

My top 5 probably becomes...
1) Russell (deserves lots of credit for being so far ahead of his time...)
2) Bird
3) Pierce
4) Hondo
5) McHale

Now the NBA of 2016-17 is so damn different in many ways with a gun to my head and told that I must win the championship this year, I would probably go with a lineup of...

2008 RA --- I know not a popular choice but the 3 is obviously important
Ainge around his all-star season -- Ainge even in his all-star year with the Celtics wasn't as good as 2008 RA but he could hit 3's very well.
Pierce
Bird
KG.

I also strongly consider replacing Ainge with McHale and Bill Russell if I am going to be facing an all-time team from a random team that I don't know about in advance. Players like Reggie Lewis, Rondo and IT also get consideration for that 5th spot. For example, if I know the other team has Michael Jordan instead of just an elite SG of today, I probably remove Ainge for Reggie Lewis.

I just think a team with 4 3 point shooters and 5 good to great defenders would be tough to beat in the modern game.

[OBisHalJordan]

Russell
Bird
Hondo/Truth
Truth/Hondo
McHale/Cowens/Cousy in some order
Sam
00
Jo Jo

Truth will retire in 6/2017 as the TWELTH leading scorer in NBA history after 19 years of ENDURING excellence - including FIFTEEN years as a Celtic legend.

Caveat: It remains inordinately absurd to compare players across positions & across generations - especially the 60s VS the last 20 years.

Agreed. Cmon do people really believe Hondo was better than Paul Pierce? What a freaking joke.
What would a complete player like Pierce do in the 60s? lmao
Tom Heinson has seen every great Celtics team and he called Pierce the best scorer in celtics history. You guys still take for granted the complete player that Pierce was. Other than Jordan and Kobe, I've never seen another player with a more complete offensive game than Pierce. Now of course there's tons of players that were better(i.e lebron) but Pierce had that once in a gen all around game imo. Maybe because I actually play bball do I appreaciate Pierce's skill and level of player he was. Bird was better, yeah, but this franchise will never have another Paul Pierce.

If judge people out their eras, Rondo is clearly better than Cousy and KG is arguably as good as better than Russell. To take in account the overall development of the game, i.e. the time people played, it's hard to do that. I never saw Hondo play but my father raves about him. He was certainly a better passer than Pierce and was famous for his endurance. Dude would run guys into the ground. My dad agrees that Pierce was the better scorer but that Hondo was a better all around player. He says they're best Celtics to swing between the 2 and 3. I asked them who is better and he says its a toss up. Maybe there's something to Exculpatory rating, who, as we all know, would be the last person in the world to underrate Pierce.

One person who does seem to be criminally underrated this thread is Cowens. I want to see Elrod dive in and remind everyone how good those 70s teams were. The forgotten dynasty.

[exculpatory]

Once we start weighing longevity with the Celtics, how well they did for their times and how long they played with the Celtics at a high level my list changes.

My top 5 probably becomes...
1) Russell (deserves lots of credit for being so far ahead of his time...)
2) Bird
3) Pierce
4) Hondo
5) McHale

Very close to mine.
Good work.

[ConstableGeneva]

Read on Twitter

[DarkAzcura]

Pierce should be in everyone's top 5, imo. I know no one means disrespect, but it's weird to see him at 9 on some people's list. He defined 15 years of Celtic basketball and should be above secondary players like Parish, McHale, Cousy, etc. I don't really have much to add beyond that, though..

[Parliament10]

1. Red Auerbach
2. Bill Russell
3. John Havlicek
4. Tommy Heinsohn (still active)
5. Bob Cousy
6. Larry Bird, and Big Three
7. Paul Pierce
8. Kevin Garnett
The List goes on . . .


The Celtics have had the Best Spirit, Heart, and Team Chemistry, of all Teams, Long-Term.
We'll be adding to this list, in the Near Future . . .

[Parliament10]

Pierc should be in everyone's top 5, imo. I know no one means disrespect, but it's weird to see him at 9 on some people's list. He defined 15 years of Celtic basketball and should be above secondary players like Parish, McHale, Cousy, etc. I don't really have much to add beyond that, though..

I understand your point.
It's a measure of respect. And you direct yours toward Pierce.

Just remember though, that we won 16 Championships, Before Pierce.

[Fencer reregistered]

Bill Russell is #1 on my list of the league's greatest players, followed by Jabbar and Jordan. Part of that is because he was a transformational figure, for defense and race alike. But he'd be that high or close to it even without those factors.

Yes, modern players have been better, with KG being a great comparison. But the modern players have also had a lot more going for them in terms of basketball history to learn from, along with other factors commonly cited like training/nutrition/shoes/opportunity to focus their lives just on the game.

Similarly, Cousy is 40ish on my list of the league's greatest players, even though it's correct to say that Rondo is clearly better, and I doubt Rondo would make my top 200.

[ermocrate]

To me say that Romdo is a better player than Cousy is like saying the guys that paints murales in the underground is better than Picasso...

[exculpatory]

X

[Captain_Caveman]

Active Roster

1. Russell
2. Bird
3. Cousy
4. Cowens
5. Havlicek
6. McHale
7. Garnett
8. Pierce
9. Parish
10. Sam Jones
11. JoJo White
12. DJ

Sorry, Tommy.

Cousy/Jojo/DJ
Havlicek/Jones
Bird/Pierce
McHale/Garnett
Russell/Cowens/Parish

[exculpatory]

Russell
Bird
Hondo/Truth
Truth/Hondo
McHale/Cowens/Cousy in some order
Sam
00
Jo Jo

Truth will retire in 6/2017 as the TWELTH leading scorer in NBA history after 19 years of ENDURING excellence - including FIFTEEN years as a Celtic legend.

Caveat: It remains inordinately absurd to compare players across positions & across generations - especially the 60s VS the last 20 years.

Agreed. Cmon do people really believe Hondo was better than Paul Pierce?
What a freaking joke.

What would a complete player like Pierce do in the 60s? lmao

Tom Heinsohn has seen every great Celtics team and he called Pierce the best scorer in Celtics history.

You guys still take for granted the complete player that Pierce was.

Other than Jordan and Kobe, I've never seen another player with a more complete offensive game than Pierce.

Now of course there were/are players that were/are better (i.e., LeBron), but Pierce had that once in a generation all around game imo. Maybe because I actually play bball do I appreciate Pierce's skill and level of player he was.

Bird was better, yeah, but this franchise will never have another Paul Pierce.

Well said.
In his prime, Paul was virtually unguardable - literally.
It is not an accident that he is going to retire in 6/2017 as the TWELTH leading scorer in the HISTORY OF THE **** SPORT!
And the DURABILITY of his excellence was remarkable.
Hondo was truly phenomenal & won lots of banners. However, he was blessed to play with innumerable outstanding players for the majority of his career. Paul did not receive KG & Ray until his ninth freaking season.
I have changed my mind.
Paul Pierce was the third greatest Celtic of all time HANDS **** DOWN.