Pedro Martinez or Sandy Koufax

[Matt15]

Which pitcher would you take in their primes?

[bigboy1234]

Pedro vs. Sandy

[Luv those Knicks]

I'd say pedro's "prime" was 7 years. His last year in Montreal and his first 6 in boston:


17-8
19-7
23-4
18-6
7-3
20-4
14-4

With 32 starts, 20 wins is rare and if you look at his first 4 years, he averaged 19.25 wins per season. Thats' kinda ridiculous.

His worst ERA in that time was 2.89 and his worst ERA+ was 1.63. His average ERA+ over those years was well over 2, but I don't want to take the time to calculate it.

He averaged well over a strikeout an inning during that time and his record was 118-36, which may be the best wining percentage over 7 years or a 150 win/loss span since the 1890s or something like that.

He won 3 Cy Youngs, was 2nd twice and 3rd once. He would have been right in the mix that season he got hurt too.

His WHIP was below 1.00, averaged out over those 7 years.


- - - -

Sandy had 2 very solid years in 61 & 62, but his truely excellent years were 63-66. So he went 4 years vs. 7, but he played more games.

During those 4 years, Kofax' ear was 1.88, 1.74, 2.04, 1.73, so Kofax wins the ERA battle rather significantly, but Pedro wins the ERA+ battle also, significantly.


Kofax got more strikeouts per year, but Pedro got way more strikeouts per inning.

and Kofax' WHIP looks better, but not tremendously so.

Kofax won 3 cy youngs, and he was 3rd once. Slight edge to Kofax for wining 3 in 4 years vs. 3 in 7 years.

Kofax Record was 97-27, so Kofax had the better wining percentage.


It's darn close.

If you go by comparison states, due to the offensive pop in AL, you have to give it to Pedro.

If you go by wins/era, Kofax gets it.


I don't think strikeouts per inning is a fair stat comparison because players were more willing to strikeout (and swing for the fences) today than in Kofax' time. So, Pedro doesn't win the strikeout comparison, but he does with the ERA+ comparison because that balances out.


Tough call - I don't see a clear winner. I'd take Kofax' 4 over any 4 years in a row Pedro had, but as a GM, I'd take 7 years over 4.

I just don't know how to call it.

[TheSheriff]

Its pedro pretty easily IMO.
At first glance Sandy looks better, but you have to remember that he was playing in Chavez Ravine in the 1960s with a raised mound.

Pedro five times had an era+ of over 200 (that means his era was less than half the league average.

Sand never had an era+ better than 190 (which is still amazing).

When you adjust for the difference of stadiums, differences in the leagues, and the differences in periods, Pedro Martinez takes this comparison.

[CR Reina]

Never having seen Koufax pitch, I'd have to take Pedro.

I like Pedro's stats better and I've never seen another pitcher come close to him in the way he combined movement with velocity.

[craig01]

I saw Koufax as a youth.

The only description for him was wicked.

In a choice between the two, it's got to be Koufax as he had great post season success too.

One note though, and this is rarely mentioned by folks, and that's that the pitchers mound was elevated during the 62-68 seasons (and was lowered in 1969).

That had significant impact on pitching performances during those years; like Gibson's 13 shut outs and 1.12 ERA in '68, Marichal's big years with the Giants, McLain winning 31 games in '68, Drysdale's scoreless inning streak of '68.

While batting statistics were inflated from the mid '90's and on, overall pitching stats were deflated during the 1960's.

[Bleeding Green]

So doesn't that make what Pedro did even more amazing?

[craig01]

So doesn't that make what Pedro did even more amazing?

Maybe?

LOL

[Dirty Water]

Give me 1999 Pedro Martinez over any pitcher ever.

[Rupert Murdoch]

Pedro and it's not even close. He was more dominant in a much more difficult era. Keep in mind that Pedro pitched in half of his games in the hitter's haven known as Fenway with a lowered mound going up against juiced hitters with a much smaller strike zone. He also was good for more then five seasons.

[Posey H8er]

Koufax could have played longer but had to retire because of arm injuries. This is tough because both guys had amazing numbers during their primes. Soufax has a much smaller sample size and I never saw him play. Toss up.

[writerman]

I admit I'm an old timer, and I loved the game in the 60's and 70's...don't watch it as much these days because it's all about money and IMO the game has sacrificed strategy for raw power.

I'll go with Koufax. For a span of 5-6 years, he was untouchable. I don't think I've ever seen any other pitcher make great hitters look so pathetic. If I remember, Orlando Cepeda was the only one who ever hit him consistently. I've seen Mays, Aaron, Clemente, FRobby, and others look like little leaguers against him. I've seen Martinez a few times, and I would say as good as he was (and he was damned good!) he was not the legit threat to pitch a no-no every time out like Koufax was.

To be fair, Martinez had to deal with both a lower mound and a clearly livelier ball. I hate the lowered mound--it's one of the reasons the offense has too much of an advantage in the game today. Too many damned 11-8 games and too few shutouts and complete games.

But conversely, also to be fair, Koufax put together those amazing won-loss records with a team offense behind him that was anemic compared to the support Martinez regularly got. They used to talk about "Dodger Home Runs"--Maury Wills would walk or bunt a single, steal second, maybe be sacrificed to third or steal it, and score on a long fly ball or a Willie Davis single. Maybe no pitcher in the history of the game put together such spectacular W-L records with such sketchy support at the plate.

I also have total contempt for the 100 pitches and 200 innings max rules in the bigs today. Guys like Drysdale, Bunning, Perry and Palmer used to actually pitch 300 innings plus a year and pitch complete games, something you almost never see in the bigs todays. Today's pitchers are sissies.

[Barbara]

"In a choice between the two, it's got to be Koufax as he had great post season success too." I am agree with you

[tha_rock220]

I

I also have total contempt for the 100 pitches and 200 innings max rules in the bigs today. Guys like Drysdale, Bunning, Perry and Palmer used to actually pitch 300 innings plus a year and pitch complete games, something you almost never see in the bigs todays. Today's pitchers are sissies.

It was a different game. If his managers had gone easier on him, perhaps Koufax might have pitched into his mid 30's. Owners don't want to risk destroying the arms of guys they're paying 8 figures. Personally I don't know how some of those guys who could pitch every other night, throw a complete game, and eat up 500+ innings did what they did, but they weren't facing a league where hitters had been given advantage after advantage for 30 years.

Anyway, I choose Koufax by a hair. I would say Pedro in 2000 was the best pitcher in history, but Sandy's 5 year stretch is a tad bit better than that run Pedro had from 96 to 02.

[craig01]

Koufax.

I'm an old timer too.

[sunshinekids99]

I'll go with Koufax. For a span of 5-6 years, he was untouchable. I don't think I've ever seen any other pitcher make great hitters look so pathetic. If I remember, Orlando Cepeda was the only one who ever hit him consistently. I've seen Mays, Aaron, Clemente, FRobby, and others look like little leaguers against him. I've seen Martinez a few times, and I would say as good as he was (and he was damned good!) he was not the legit threat to pitch a no-no every time out like Koufax was.

.

Did he now?

Hank Aaron hit .362 for his career against Koufax with 7 homeruns. 1.078 OPS
Frank Robinson had a lower average but also had 7 homeruns. .852 OPS
Willie Mays .278 with 5 homeruns. .962 OPS
Clemente .297 with 6 homeruns. .905 OPS

I'm not trying to take anything away from Koufax but he didn't dominate those guys and sure didn't make them look like little leaguers.

Give me Pedro Martinez against anybody for peak years. I never seen a better pitcher than Pedro and he did it in a hitters era and the steroids era.

[Huuminh]

Sandy Koufax any time. If I had a game I needed to win I'd like Koufax on the mound.