Who has the best overall system?

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Post#21 » by nykgeneralmanager » Thu Apr 5, 2007 5:08 am

Chach wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



To quote Ghostface Killah: Liar liar, pants on fire/You're burnin up like David Koresh

The Yanks have some interesting depth and Hughes is probably the best pitching prospect in the minors but there are teams with better depth. Hughes is good, I think Wang is overrated (I think he's going to get hurt if he doesn't raise his strikeout rate). Betances is nice but unproven, I worry about Joba the Hut's weight and injury history. Clippard is always going to be an Eckstein type player, scrapping to make it. Kennedy is interesting but I'd like to see what he does in the minors. And Sanchez is probably going to end up in the pen. While I personally like the upside of the Red Sox depth, I'd be lying if I said that the Sox had better pitching depth than the Yankees. The Sox might have more upside but a lot of their pitchers are unproven out of the Joba/Betances mold. mahalo
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I honestly don't see a team with the pitching depth in the minors that the Yankees have. Aside from the fact that few (if any) teams have 3 ace potential pitchers (Hughes/Chamberlain/Betances...maybe but unlikely a fourth in Sanchez), the Yankees have a lot of other guys. It pretty much starts with guys like Karstens, Ohlendorf, Clippard, and Kennedy all the way down the system to others such as Reyes, Castillo, McAllister, and Nova. I'd be surprised if you can name a team with certainty that has more depth and more top of the line potential pitchers. And I didn't even bring up relievers like Cox, Whelan, Melancon, etc.
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Post#22 » by Chach » Thu Apr 5, 2007 7:19 am

Oh come on, three potential aces? Give me a break. Chamberlin has a boat load of potential but I have yet to see him put it together. His last year in college, Joba's hit rate, HR rate, BB rate, and K rate. The first three are bad signs and his K rate only went up a tick. He was pretty lights out in Hawaii but that's against his peers, A ball players and what not. If he were lights out in the AFL, that would be pretty impressive. I won't comment on Betances because while I've heard good things and he was lights out in rookie ball, I've never heard him called a potential ace but that may be because I have read little on him.

Sure, the Yanks got a ton of fringe major leaguers but that doesn't mean a whole lot, especially to the Yankees, because now that they actually HAVE talent in their minor leagues, guys like Clippard won't mean much. Both the Red Sox and the Yankees prospects of old got hyped beyond belief because the systems were so thin that fringe player would net a ton in trades. Casey Fossum was the centerpiece of the Curt Schilling trade, you remember that. But now that the Yankees have guys like Hughes and Tabata in their system, fringe guys don't look as attractive. mahalo
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Post#23 » by nykgeneralmanager » Thu Apr 5, 2007 7:07 pm

Chach wrote:Oh come on, three potential aces? Give me a break. Chamberlin has a boat load of potential but I have yet to see him put it together. His last year in college, Joba's hit rate, HR rate, BB rate, and K rate. The first three are bad signs and his K rate only went up a tick. He was pretty lights out in Hawaii but that's against his peers, A ball players and what not. If he were lights out in the AFL, that would be pretty impressive. I won't comment on Betances because while I've heard good things and he was lights out in rookie ball, I've never heard him called a potential ace but that may be because I have read little on him.

Sure, the Yanks got a ton of fringe major leaguers but that doesn't mean a whole lot, especially to the Yankees, because now that they actually HAVE talent in their minor leagues, guys like Clippard won't mean much. Both the Red Sox and the Yankees prospects of old got hyped beyond belief because the systems were so thin that fringe player would net a ton in trades. Casey Fossum was the centerpiece of the Curt Schilling trade, you remember that. But now that the Yankees have guys like Hughes and Tabata in their system, fringe guys don't look as attractive. mahalo
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The way Chamberlain has pitched since the Yankees drafted him, he is a potential ace. If you want to say a potential 2, that is fine with me. He has been dominant, and durability issues aside, he has a very high ceiling.

Betances is surely a potential ace. He just turned 19, and at 6'9''/230 he tops out at 98 mph. His 12-6 curve is comparable to Christian Garcia's, who has a better curve that Hughes (and Hughes curve was mlb ready more than a year ago). His changeup is the pitch that has come along the most, as he can now control it consistently and put movement on it as well. Thats what really brought him from a pitcher with potential to a real potential ace. He has the complete arsenal of nasty stuff, and the progress he has made in repeating his delivery and fixing his control issues has been amazing.

Again, you would be hard pressed to find a system with a better big three than Hughes-Betances-Chamberlain, especially after the way Betances and Chamberlain have pitched since being drafted.

Frince guys may not look attractive, but they add depth, which was the discussion we were talking about.
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Post#24 » by Chach » Thu Apr 5, 2007 7:51 pm

Can I ask where Job has pitched since signing? I sincerely don't know, the only place I've heard he pitched was the Hawaiian Fall League and while he was dominant there, he was pitching against primarily A ball players so it's not outstanding or unusual. And those durability issues are issues. Prior was an ace but he kept getting hurt and look where he is now. I like what I've heard about Bettances but I really can't go out on the limb and say much because of my limited knowledge of him.

Once I finally get my copy of BA's Prospect book, I can give you an accurate idea of who has a lot of depth. Off the top of my head, I think the two three might be the Yankees, Indians, and Twinkies but I can't tell you for sure. I'll get back to you. mahalo
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Post#25 » by nykgeneralmanager » Thu Apr 5, 2007 8:24 pm

Chach wrote:Can I ask where Job has pitched since signing? I sincerely don't know, the only place I've heard he pitched was the Hawaiian Fall League and while he was dominant there, he was pitching against primarily A ball players so it's not outstanding or unusual. And those durability issues are issues. Prior was an ace but he kept getting hurt and look where he is now. I like what I've heard about Bettances but I really can't go out on the limb and say much because of my limited knowledge of him.

Once I finally get my copy of BA's Prospect book, I can give you an accurate idea of who has a lot of depth. Off the top of my head, I think the two three might be the Yankees, Indians, and Twinkies but I can't tell you for sure. I'll get back to you. mahalo
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He only pitched in the Hawaiian Fall League after the draft. While you're right it was A ball competition, his numbers were still mind boggling. In 37.2 innings, he allowed 28 hits, struck out 46, and walked 3 (yes 3, that is not a typo). He is only starting in high A ball this year anyway, so its not as if he is a AAA pitcher dominating competition far below him. Obviously he won't be in A+ ball for long, but you know what I'm saying.

As for Betances, you should really look into him more. There is a real possibility that he becomes a highly rated prospect at the end of this season.
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Post#26 » by Shzm13 » Thu Apr 5, 2007 10:31 pm

I agree, the Dbacks and Rockies had the best talent, but most of it is already in the majors. Dbacks are definitely the best talent evaluators though.
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Post#27 » by diamondbacker » Thu Apr 5, 2007 11:11 pm

Shzm13 wrote:I agree, the Dbacks and Rockies had the best talent, but most of it is already in the majors. Dbacks are definitely the best talent evaluators though.



I agree, but I'd say D-backs and Dodgers, then Rockies just a tiny notch below.
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Post#28 » by Black Jesus 1 » Sat Apr 7, 2007 5:48 am

Shzm13 wrote:I agree, the Dbacks and Rockies had the best talent, but most of it is already in the majors. Dbacks are definitely the best talent evaluators though.
Didn't Rizzo quit his job with AZ and accept a different job last year? (with WASH, I think?)
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Post#29 » by nykgeneralmanager » Sat Apr 7, 2007 6:20 am

I'm not exactly sure who, but I know the Yankees got somebody from the Arizona organization because he is the one who helped Cashman pick which prospects to get for Randy Johnson. I think he might've been a cross-checker.
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Post#30 » by john2jer » Sun Apr 8, 2007 7:45 am

The Twins' AAA starting rotation is better than a few teams in the majors.

Garza
Perkins
Slowey
Baker
Gassner
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Post#31 » by nykgeneralmanager » Sun Apr 8, 2007 3:58 pm

john2jer wrote:The Twins' AAA starting rotation is better than a few teams in the majors.

Garza
Perkins
Slowey
Baker
Gassner

When Sanchez is healthy, I'd say Scranton's got the best minor league rotation:

Hughes
Sanchez
Clippard
Ohlendorf
Karstens
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Post#32 » by SARGO127 » Mon Apr 9, 2007 3:09 pm

Scranton has the best pitching staff by far.
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Post#33 » by JoeJohnson2two » Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:04 pm

The Milwaukee Brewers have to have a top 5 Minor League system even though Rickie, Prince, and such are up in the majors already.

List of potential MLB players in the minors for Milwaukee.
Ryan Braun (will be up within a month, guaranteed)
Yovani Gallardo (one of the best SP in AAA)
Jose Capellan
Zach Jackson
Dennis Sarfate
Steve Bray
Vinny Rottino
Manny Parra
Robert Hinton
Lou Palmisano
Josh Wahpepah
Will Inman
Alcides Escobar
Cole Gillespie
Chris Errecart

Toss-Ups (Guys with all the potential to be Major Leaguers)
Hernan Iribarren
Mark Rogers
Jeremy Jeffress
Ben Stanczyk
Luis Pena
Vince Perkins
Brent Brewer
Michael Brantley
Mike Jones (still struggling - almost lost hope)
Mat Gamel
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Post#34 » by ChiBullsFan83 » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:44 pm

How do the Yanks have more pitching talent then the Twins in the minors? Yeah you have Phillip Hughes and a few more guys but you can't beat these guys. So does Garza, Swarzak and Slowey count as competition to the Yanks big three? Or do you need more names to the list to see who has the best pitching pipeline in baseball? If you do here's some:

Matt Garza
Kevin Slowey
Anthony Swarzak
Glen Perkins
Kyle Waldrop
Alexander Smit
Jeff Manship
Jose Mijares
Eduardo Morlan
Adam Hawes

If everything happens the Twins way and we re-sign Johan, our opening day rotation could look like this when our new stadium opens in 2010:

#1 - Johan
#2 - Garza
#3 - Liriano (healthy)
#4 - Swarzak
#5 - Slowey, Waldrop - take your pick

Our hitting has gotten better as well and a little list looks like this. I'm not that high on Moses anymore and prefer Valencia over him as our future 3B. Here's a list of our position players that I like:

Chris Parmalee
David Winfree
Erik Lis
Trevor Plouffe
Alexi Cassila
Denard Span - not to much in else in CF
Danny Valencia - hopefully he pans out and is our 3B of the future
Garret Guzman

Just imagine if Jeff Clement could be added to this group. It's to bad we couldn't of signed him out of the fifteenth round a couple of years ago!
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Post#35 » by Bleeding Green » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:08 am

Eh, I think I'd take Betances, Hughes, Chamberlain, Sanchez, Cox, Melancon, Clippard, Kennedy (plus I know I'm omitting at least two good prospects here) over any other system's pitching and it's not really close. Hughes is arguably the best pitching prospect in baseball, Betances has as much upside as just about anyone, Chamberlain has #2 potential, Kennedy could be a good backend pitcher ready to contribute right now, Clippard the same, but with a little more upside I think, Cox is a good middle-reliever if he gets healthy, Sanchez has electric stuff, but just can't stay healthy.

Alexi Casilla is likely the most underrated player in the minors right now.
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Post#36 » by ChiBullsFan83 » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:30 am

Bleeding Green wrote:Eh, I think I'd take Betances, Hughes, Chamberlain, Sanchez, Cox, Melancon, Clippard, Kennedy (plus I know I'm omitting at least two good prospects here) over any other system's pitching and it's not really close. Hughes is arguably the best pitching prospect in baseball, Betances has as much upside as just about anyone, Chamberlain has #2 potential, Kennedy could be a good backend pitcher ready to contribute right now, Clippard the same, but with a little more upside I think, Cox is a good middle-reliever if he gets healthy, Sanchez has electric stuff, but just can't stay healthy.

Alexi Casilla is likely the most underrated player in the minors right now.


Casilla has been a pleasant surprise for my Twins considering that we only gave up Romero to get him. But the point of my post is the Yanks do have some pitching competition in the minors. They are good but there are alot of teams that have more depth and quality pitchers than the Yanks. Watch Anthony Swarzak this year, big things are expected since he's in New Britain now.
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Post#37 » by Bleeding Green » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:35 am

It's just opinion, but I disagree. The Yankees are stocked with young pitching talent. They have depth, they have quality arms. Easily more so than any other team.

And I hate the Yankees with the white hot intensity of a thousand Suns.

And yeah, good luck with Swarzak. :D

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Post#38 » by ChiBullsFan83 » Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:05 pm

Thanks for posting that, I had on idea. Why do these guys even take these chances? He has so much potential to be great. Twins and Yankee fans will never agree about prospects, it's just something that will always be that way. However I do agree with you in saying the Yanks do have an underrated minor league system because it has gotten better over the last couple years because they decided to focus on it again because their spending spree hasn't panned out yet.
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Post#39 » by Chach » Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:25 pm

The reason I am skeptical of the Yankees depth is yes, they have a number of players with talent but pitching propects are so volitale that a few injuries here and there can really hurt their "depth". Sanchez is going in for TJ surgery. That's the fourth big name I believe: Sanchez, Cox, Melancon, and Garcia who all need TJ surgery (although apparently Cox might not be having TJ surgery after all, heard conflicting reports). I'm not blaming the Yankees for mishandling the pitchers but four of their top pitchers go down with TJ surgery and I have a hard time giving them the top depth honors with that. mahalo
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Post#40 » by horaceworthy » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:09 pm

The Yankees have some good talent in their pipeline, due to the presence of Hughes, I'd say they've got the best, but if that's expanded to guys 25 and under who are in the organization (not just the minors), then I think the Twins have them beat. Even without doing that, I think the Twins have enough to at least give the Yanks a run for their money. The AAA rotation is stacked, and although AA is a little weak, especially with Swarzak's suspension, they've got a ridiculous amount of arms in High A. They've also shown to be quite adept at developing pitching recently.
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