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Bargnani discussion

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Post#141 Re: Bargnani discussion
Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:56 pm by RapsBulls4evr

CB4_the_CEO wrote:Is there anyone here that actually believes he'll live upto the #1 pick?? if we actually had someone half decent to bang with bosh inside, we'd be a TOP calibre team.....someone like Aldridge wouldve been perfect :cry:
Sorry to say but im not very confident about his game.

Anyways, havent been on here for like 4ever, so dont spasm on me if this has been discussed.

If you wanted Adridge, you can find me on the Trail Blazers... this topic has been discussed over 50 or more times. Bargs is what he is, 2nd season in the league from Europe, give him time. Useless topic, can't believe it has over 10 pages.
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Post#142
Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:57 pm by tsherkin

Duffman100 wrote:So you're basing it entirely on #1 picks? And you don't see the fault in that logic? There are a lot of players, from 1 to 30, that struggled early in their careers and eventually became great players.


Of course not, that's simply an additive; and it's a fairly compelling remark that of the 2 players in the last 29 or 30 that have been picked first overall and floundered early, both were MASSIVE busts.

I just honestly can't believe you watch Bargnani, when you say he's regressed in every other ability. Thats just not true. He drives better than he did last year.


I did note this when I was going over his games, yes. But really, it's not that he's driving better, it's that he's getting a few more opportunities to do so and is taking advantage of them a little more aggressively. This is mostly founded on the establishment of his jump shot and league defenders learning that he's a threat on the catch-and-shoot, so they're showing aggressively and he's sending them away with the pump fake or making a decent move off of a swing pass. But it's nothing he didn't show last year.

Hes playing better defence. He passing better.


Debatable. His defense doesn't look better to me; not worse, certainly, but not better. And his passing is no different.

And yes, he can create his own shot, and has shown multiple times that he doesn't just rely on his pump fake. And like I said, which you didn't address, he never has plays run for him. So, of course, he relies a lot on the flow of the offense getting him looks. How many Bargnani isos do you see during the game? Not many.


There's a reason for that. The Raptors don't run isos for him because he's not a good iso player; Bargnani doesn't have the array of moves to take the kinds of plays Bosh gets and regularly produce out of them. He puts his head down when he drives a lot, which is a BIG mistake, he doesn't stop-and-pop well, he doesn't spin, he doesn't have great change-of-pace/direction maneuvers... The tools aren't there. Besides, there's no compelling reason to iso him because he conflicts with three other guys on the team in Bosh, Calderon and Ford.

There's ALWAYS someone ready to start from the outside and go in from the point guard slot and then Bosh is taking up the only other places from where Bargs is effective, the perimeter zones on the weakside of our pick-and-roll play for those 20-foot isos. He's useless in the post, so we can't iso him there...

Where do you want us to run isos for him? His limitations on offense concomitantly limit the places where he can iso FROM.

You're right, he doesn't have any low post game, but like I said, its all about strength. He's never had to play there before, and he doesn't have the strength to establish position. Does that mean he can't do it ever? No. And that's where the entire fault of your posts lie. You're talking in definites. 'He'll never...' etc... You don't know...neither do I. He could become a lost post scorer too, its all about development.


No, no he can't. If you're talking about a primary low post scorer, it'll never happen. History is on my side here, and so are several years of coaching, studying under other coaches, reading about the game and years and years of playing.

Most especially at the NBA level, the post is about development of instincts and comfort level; he's a perimeter player, you don't teach perimeter players how to play predominantly in the post. Even Dirk has a weak, sickly post game that's really bad and only works because of the strength of the rest of his game and the infrequency with which he goes to the low post. He can kind of get it done in the high post but he's still predominantly a perimeter player. Jordan was using the shot that he mastered down low for his ENTIRE career and had a fairly limited post repertoire, which he supplemented with MUCH more offense from the perimeter and from off-ball movement, etc.

Post offense begins early, because you have to learn about physicality, about leverage, about staying calm in traffic and about where players are going to be, how they are going to defend, etc. You need to learn how to pull the moves, learn the counters, learn the fakes. You need to learn how to move without the ball, how to establish and hold position, how to do so against shorter opponents, against stronger opponents, how to use the rim, the backboard off of different types of shots. Hook shots and drop-steps and the game of a backdown scorer is ENTIRELY different in breed from perimeter offense, which is considerably more reliant on quickness, your jump shot and screens. On-ball post screens are very rare; most screens are the ones YOU are setting to foster baseline cuts and cross-key cuts and such like. And Bargs is a crappy screener, he peels way too early every time because he's soft.

He has the potential, he has the ability. His skillset allows him to become a great player. I'm not saying he will, but I'm saying the potential is there. And the fact that people are already giving up on him, is ridiculous and depressing.


I don't see greatness in him, no. I don't see anything in him but a stand-still jumper and that's never led to greatness. Great players have almost universally shown more earlier than what we see from Bargs now.

And again, half the problem isn't that he's been so bad lately, it's that he's totally useless to our team.

Remember, I'm not saying that Bargs is never going to be a good player. I've said numerous times that I can see him being a KVH type player, maybe even a borderline All-Star, but even if he maximized his potential as a spot-up shooter, he would still have anemic value to us because he provides NONE of the things we need from him in terms of production on the court and style of play. He could turn himself into a 20 ppg scorer the way Van Horn was as a young player and Bargs would still be detrimental to the development of our team because he's a crappy rebounder and he's not a shot-blocker and he still doesn't consistently create his own shot or provide post offense.
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Post#143
Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:59 pm by tsherkin

Duffman100 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Sure, ok, move him for what exactly? Who realistically can we trade our second year struggling player for that is going to make us magically better? I honestly can't think of anyone that we can get. I'd love Horford, but Atlanta won't give him up. Oden? Sure...


Well, a good start might be trading him for another first rounder in this upcoming draft; if we can get our hands on Kevin Love, then that's the type of move that would be more likely to pay off for us. Love himself may not be the answer but starting to address the stylistic issue with our frontcourt certainly is.

He can provide so many different looks. When Bargs plays well, our team is unbelievabley hard to stop...I'd like to keep him and see if that can become a regular thingg


And what looks are those? He provides the same looks every game, literally. When Bargs has "played well" this year, it has been the result of him shooting unsustainable percentages, we discussed this like 8 pages ago.
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Post#144
Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:03 pm by CreaM

Duffman100 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



So you're basing it entirely on #1 picks? And you don't see the fault in that logic? There are a lot of players, from 1 to 30, that struggled early in their careers and eventually became great players.

I just honestly can't believe you watch Bargnani, when you say he's regressed in every other ability. Thats just not true. He drives better than he did last year. Hes playing better defence. He passing better. And yes, he can create his own shot, and has shown multiple times that he doesn't just rely on his pump fake. And like I said, which you didn't address, he never has plays run for him. So, of course, he relies a lot on the flow of the offense getting him looks. How many Bargnani isos do you see during the game? Not many.

You're right, he doesn't have any low post game, but like I said, its all about strength. He's never had to play there before, and he doesn't have the strength to establish position. Does that mean he can't do it ever? No. And that's where the entire fault of your posts lie. You're talking in definites. 'He'll never...' etc... You don't know...neither do I. He could become a low post scorer too, its all about development.

He has the potential, he has the ability. His skillset allows him to become a great player. I'm not saying he will, but I'm saying the potential is there. And the fact that people are already giving up on him, is ridiculous and depressing.

You are being ridiculous my friend. It almost seems like you have accepted Bargs's shortcomings and are now being sympathetic towards him because he is not able to live up to expectations. You cannot seriously tell me that you have watched Bargs this year and seen any sort of major improvement.

You think its all about strength? If it was, your claim that he is a good defender would not be existent because being a good post defender also requires strength. He just does not have the skill to play in the low post and that is a sad reality. Do not try to sugar coat it because it evident in his play. The truth is that he was envisioned to be something that he is not. He is SF that had a growth spurt that put him over 7ft, giving him the ability to play some PF.

How can you say he drives better that he did last year? There you go again making up stuff just to prove your argument. If you watched as many games as you claim, you would know that he has had so many travels called on him that probably the whole team put together. I dont know how that is disputable.

Im all for supporting the number one pick but the fact is that I was never for this pick especially considering the fact that there were better players available. There is not point is just BLINDLY defending the pick.
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Post#145 Re: Bargnani discussion
Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:05 pm by CreaM

Raps4evr wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


If you wanted Adridge, you can find me on the Trail Blazers... this topic has been discussed over 50 or more times. Bargs is what he is, 2nd season in the league from Europe, give him time. Useless topic, can't believe it has over 10 pages.

Its a useless topic because it does not say "ZOMG, Bargs is the next Dirk"?
Please, get real.
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Post#146
Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:09 pm by Duffman100

CreaM wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


You are being ridiculous my friend. It almost seems like you have accepted Bargs's shortcomings and are now being sympathetic towards him because he is not able to live up to expectations. You cannot seriously tell me that you have watched Bargs this year and seen any sort of major improvement.

You think its all about strength? If it was, your claim that he is a good defender would not be existent because being a good post defender also requires strength. He just does not have the skill to play in the low post and that is a sad reality. Do not try to sugar coat it because it evident in his play. The truth is that he was envisioned to be something that he is not. He is SF that had a growth spurt that put him over 7ft, giving him the ability to play some PF.

How can you say he drives better that he did last year? There you go again making up stuff just to prove your argument. If you watched as many games as you claim, you would know that he has had so many travels called on him that probably the whole team put together. I dont know how that is disputable.

Im all for supporting the number one pick but the fact is that I was never for this pick especially considering the fact that there were better players available. There is not point is just BLINDLY defending the pick.


You are guys are as seemingly blind as I am.

He's not driving better? Are you kidding me? Do you guys remember him from last year? Do you honestly? He travelled or charged everytime he drove last year.

I'm not defending the pick, I personally would rather have Rudy Gay...BUT, there is no point on harping on a 22 year old, 2nd year player...who, despite what you guys say, HAS shown improvement in areas.

If he was hitting hit shots, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but Toronto fans would rather be negative, then look for the positives.

And if you play basketball, you'd know that defensive and offensive post strength is A LOT DIFFERENT.
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Post#147
Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:12 pm by CreaM

tsherkin wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



And what looks are those? He provides the same looks every game, literally. When Bargs has "played well" this year, it has been the result of him shooting unsustainable percentages, we discussed this like 8 pages ago.

I dont understand why people dont get that. It is so obvious but i guess they are blinded by the results.
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Post#148
Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:13 pm by Duffman100

tsherkin wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


And who is going to give up a top 5 first rounder for him now? Everyone on this board has these brilliant general managing plans, but have NO IDEA whats out there.

Would someone give up that pick for him? I don't know, I doubt it.

The problem with this board is everyone thinks they know everything about basketball.

Will Bargnani get better? I don't know. Could we have traded for a rebounder? I don't know. These are things that industry professionals know and we can't answer.

So what do we do? We sit, and wait, and see what progresses...
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Post#149
Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:15 pm by Duffman100

CreaM wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


I dont understand why people dont get that. It is so obvious but i guess they are blinded by the results.


But he's shown that he can shoot, drive, and now adjust within his drives. Isn't that development...?
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Post#150
Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:17 pm by supersub15

So far, Bargnani's career has almost mirrored Clifford Robinson's. Both crappy rebounders, both jump shooters, both started out in a mediocre fashion. Uncle Cliffy blew up in his 4th season, and was a pretty good player.

If Bargnani can do the same, I'd be ecstatic with 20 ppg / 5 rpg.
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Post#151
Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:19 pm by Duffman100

And I'm completely ceding that he coudl suck for the rest of his career. That's a distinct possibility.

But he's also shown flashes of being VERY hard to guard, being able to hit jumpers off the dribble, adjust in his drives, and be a great 3 point shooter.
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Post#152
Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:20 pm by Shaazzam

Even if we traded AB for a rebounder we'd still be a big short.
Imageprops to Turbo_Zone
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Post#153
Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:21 pm by ruckus

Sitting and waiting ruins the fun of the debate and I've thoroughly enjoyed the reading the back and forth in this thread. But, I have to agree that neither now or in the upcoming offseason is the time to move Bargs. If he doesn't pan out, wouldn't his greatest value be as an expiring contract in his fourth season (I think he stands to make $8M). If he does pan out then, bully for us! I don't know where Raptors' management stand on Bargs but, if they've jumped off the bandwagon, I think their best course of action would be to make Bargs perfect what he knows increasing his value as much as they can rather than continuing to try to make him something he is not.
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Post#154
Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:22 pm by CreaM

Duffman100 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



You are guys are as seemingly blind as I am.

He's not driving better? Are you kidding me? Do you guys remember him from last year? Do you honestly? He travelled or charged everytime he drove last year.

I'm not defending the pick, I personally would rather have Rudy Gay...BUT, there is no point on harping on a 22 year old, 2nd year player...who, despite what you guys say, HAS shown improvement in areas.

If he was hitting hit shots, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but Toronto fans would rather be negative, then look for the positives.


And if you play basketball, you'd know that defensive and offensive post strength is A LOT DIFFERENT.

Do you honestly think that with the type of shots Bargnani takes, he is consistently able to hit at a high percentage? The numbers dont lie, he is inefficient as a scorer but people fail to realize this because the try as much as possible to focus on the little "positives" they can find.

Call me a hater but as long as Bargs plays the way he does, he will never be a consistent scorer in this league. He like to get up shots in a hurry and when he hits 2 or more straight, he feels like its his right to take the next 5. I dont know if that is the way he was coached in Italy or its just a natural flawed mentality but its present. That is why you either see 4 point games or 24 point games from him. Unfortunately, the latter only happens once every 10 games.

As long as Bargs plays the way he does, he will never be a successful player in the NBA IMO. He has to change his style of play which I dont see happening anytime soon.
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Post#155
Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:26 pm by Duffman100

CreaM wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


Do you honestly think that with the type of shots Bargnani takes, he is consistently able to hit at a high percentage? The numbers dont lie, he is inefficient as a scorer but people fail to realize this because the try as much as possible to focus on the little "positives" they can find.

Call me a hater but as long as Bargs plays the way he does, he will never be a consistent scorer in this league. He like to get up shots in a hurry and when he hits 2 or more straight, he feels like its his right to take the next 5. I dont know if that is the way he was coached in Italy or its just a natural flawed mentality but its present. That is why you either see 4 point games or 24 point games from him. Unfortunately, the latter only happens once every 10 games.

As long as Bargs plays the way he does, he will never be a successful player in the NBA IMO. He has to change his style of play which I dont see happening anytime soon.


Yet at the end of last year, he was shooting really well...and every shot he took, people expected to go in.

People forget that too.
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Post#156
Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:29 pm by CreaM

Duffman100 wrote:And I'm completely ceding that he coudl suck for the rest of his career. That's a distinct possibility.

But he's also shown flashes of being VERY hard to guard, being able to hit jumpers off the dribble, adjust in his drives, and be a great 3 point shooter.

See the thing is, in the NBA, everyone shows flashes. Its not uncommon for a player to show flashes every 10 games or so. You dont dwell on those flashes as a precedent to future success. Roger mason of the Wizards scored 34pts a couple of games ago. You get where I'm going with this?
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Post#157
Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:30 pm by Duffman100

CreaM wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


See the thing is, in the NBA, everyone shows flashes. Its not uncommon for a player to show flashes every 10 games or so. You dont dwell on those flashes as a precedent to future success. Roger mason of the Wizards scored 34pts a couple of games ago. You get where I'm going with this?


Exactly, so Durant could suck too? He's shown flashes, bad rebounder, bad defender, high volume scorer. So Durant will be nothing in the future?
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Post#158
Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:35 pm by supersub15

Duffman100 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Exactly, so Durant could suck too? He's shown flashes, bad rebounder, bad defender, high volume scorer. So Durant will be nothing in the future?


A couple of weeks back, I read a piece comparing Durant's rookie season to that of one Adam Morrison.
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Post#159
Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:36 pm by CreaM

Duffman100 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Yet at the end of last year, he was shooting really well...and every shot he took, people expected to go in.

People forget that too.

But thats the thing, is that something you can expect on a gamely basis? Did we draft Bargnani to be a spot up shooter or a player that can mix it up.

Would you call Dirk or Okur shooters? NO.
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Post#160
Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:36 pm by Shaazzam

supersub15 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



A couple of weeks back, I read a piece comparing Durant's rookie season to that of one Adam Morrison.


I'm guessing Simmons didn't write that one.
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