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Must Read: From Clyde's book

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Post#1 Must Read: From Clyde's book
Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:18 am by Red Vines

On the chapter on teamwork and defense he writes:

If the Phoenix Suns had won the NBA championship last year, it would have been horrible for the game. No one would say defense wins anymore. The purists and defense-oriented guys like myself would've died a little death. Every team would've started trying to emulate the Suns by running up and down the court. The Suns almost invited their opponents to score so that they could take the ball out of bounds and start running.

Phoenix's problem was that you can't win a championship by only playing offense. They can't stop anybody on "D." They play matador defense. That's why they traded for Kurt Thomas, a good defensive player, in the off-season last year, and signed Boris Diaw and Raja Bell. It helped, but it wasn't enough. If they had somehow won the championship in 2006, other team would've adopted their undisciplined, run-up-and-down style and the sweet nuances of the half-court game would deteriorate further.

Defense and teamwork--to me that's the game, that's how you win. That's how I played coming up and I wouldn't change anything. It's still the way to play. I'm old-school. I won't change. I was a defensive player and I shared the ball on offense and hit the open man. I believe in teamwork.

You have to play as a team and you have to work hard on defense.


That's all.
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Post#2 Re: Must Read: From Clyde's book
Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:20 am by livintoolive

Can you just make this your Red Vines is bitching again thread? Just keep it all tidy in one place with the same title so it can be ignored.
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Post#3 Re: Must Read: From Clyde's book
Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:22 am by TheBluest

^^^^^^^^

Ha, R-O-C get gunned up and clapped quick
J.J. Evans get gunned up and clapped quick
Your whole damn record label gunned up and clapped quick
Shawn Carter to Jay-Z, damn you on Jaz ****
So little shorty's getting gunned up and clapped quick
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Post#4 Re: Must Read: From Clyde's book
Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:26 am by Manhattan Project

You could be like the Showtime Lakers though, just turn it on when it's needed. Now clearly the Suns never could do it, nor do we look like we can for some time. However a potent offensive oriented team can win a title.

They played fast.
They scored a lot.
They gave up a lot.
However they knew when to play defense.
Suns never got the timely stops.

I agree with Clyde though as far as being old fashioned that defense wins. However I'm also young enough to realize the ever changing landscape of the league.
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Post#5 Re: Must Read: From Clyde's book
Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:28 am by TheBluest

Manhattan Project wrote:You could be like the Showtime Lakers though, just turn it on when it's needed. Now clearly the Suns never could do it, nor do we look like we can for some time. However a potent offensive oriented team can win a title.

They played fast.
They scored a lot.
They gave up a lot.
However they knew when to play defense.
Suns never got the timely stops.

I agree with Clyde though as far as being old fashioned that defense wins. However I'm also young enough to realize the ever changing landscape of the league.



But it's strange we're trying to emulate a style with the LEAST ODDS OF WINNING A TITLE. Anything is possible but LET IT FLY is for the most part craptastic ball.

Magic Johnson is not walking through MSG"s doors.
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Post#6 Re: Must Read: From Clyde's book
Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:29 am by TheBluest

What Clyde said about the Suns is what we say about No Sharrington making shots. It's the worst thing that could happen....unfortunately most don't get the meaning of this when it's stated.
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Post#7 Re: Must Read: From Clyde's book
Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:34 am by Justdatdude

Clyde has been around this team forever. Is there a reason why he was never offered a coaching job with the team? I don't really care how exciting the team is. I want wins. Losing while keeping games close can only be exciting for so long.
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Post#8 Re: Must Read: From Clyde's book
Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:36 am by Red Vines

Manhattan Project wrote:I agree with Clyde though as far as being old fashioned that defense wins. However I'm also young enough to realize the ever changing landscape of the league.


I know what you mean, but I also used to think quarterbacks like Michael Vick were the future of the NFL...but it always ends up being the team with the old-school, drop-back passer that wins the Super Bowl.
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Post#9 Re: Must Read: From Clyde's book
Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:36 am by Manhattan Project

TheBluest wrote:
But it's strange we're trying to emulate a style with the LEAST ODDS OF WINNING A TITLE. Anything is possible but LET IT FLY is for the most part craptastic ball.

Magic Johnson is not walking through MSG"s doors.


I think it's a bad idea to run with our roster, that's for sure. It's actually a damn tragedy that we even tried with the roster that we have.
I think it's a good idea if you have a LeBron James. I never got scared playing basketball, but if you have LeBron constantly attacking instead of going ISO all the time I like it.

I have no problem with a system that is predicated on sharing the ball and shooting the open shot. Also at the same time I do believe that the Spurs and Lakers were better teams than the Suns. I also buy the Suns were better defensively then people believe.

At the end of the day this is a system that is built on basic fundamentals. If we don't follow those fundamentals then this system looks like a joke. However on a night when were playing good, we look damn good doing it.
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Post#10 Re: Must Read: From Clyde's book
Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:41 am by Manhattan Project

Red Vines wrote:
I know what you mean, but I also used to think quarterbacks like Michael Vick were the future of the NFL...but it always ends up being the team with the old-school, drop-back passer that wins the Super Bowl.


I get what your saying and when Vick beat Favre at Lambeau the entire league was utterly shocked. That was a drastic culture change for a lot of teams. However when a QB can't pass accurately, well then it's sort of a problem. It was the hype that made people ponder the future of the QB's in the league.

However a QB that can't hold onto the ball and isn't accurate will never the be the future. You can tweak some things around, but at the core it's flawed.

This system I honestly believe can work, with the proper players. It's not a system that anyone can step into and it will work. You need guys that buy into a system. You need guys that actually want to play as a team and take pride in their team. You can't tell me we have people who actually do all of that.
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Post#11 Re: Must Read: From Clyde's book
Wed Mar 3, 2010 1:49 am by Red Vines

Manhattan Project wrote:This system I honestly believe can work, with the proper players. It's not a system that anyone can step into and it will work. You need guys that buy into a system. You need guys that actually want to play as a team and take pride in their team. You can't tell me we have people who actually do all of that.


It can work, it's just a matter of how patient you're willing to be in finding the right players. It seems as if we're trying to catch lightning in a bottle.
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Post#12 Re: Must Read: From Clyde's book
Wed Mar 3, 2010 7:44 am by Subway Token

Red Vines wrote:
Manhattan Project wrote:This system I honestly believe can work, with the proper players. It's not a system that anyone can step into and it will work. You need guys that buy into a system. You need guys that actually want to play as a team and take pride in their team. You can't tell me we have people who actually do all of that.


It can work, it's just a matter of how patient you're willing to be in finding the right players. It seems as if we're trying to catch lightning in a bottle.


This system only works if you have a super fast, fast reflex point-gaurd who is a lethal shooter. How many of those exist? Nash, Billups, Kidd in his prime, CP3? This system is unrealistic and is NOT how the game works. That's like saying "I know David Lee doesn't play defense, but we'll keep giving him the ball to outscore them so it is alllllllll goooood." I find the system to be a sham and it doeesn't make you win big. What happens when you vs the Spurs or the Bobcats with excellent D? Your gonna struggle.
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Post#13 Re: Must Read: From Clyde's book
Wed Mar 3, 2010 8:42 am by Knicksick

knicksfan5494 wrote:
Red Vines wrote:
Manhattan Project wrote:This system I honestly believe can work, with the proper players. It's not a system that anyone can step into and it will work. You need guys that buy into a system. You need guys that actually want to play as a team and take pride in their team. You can't tell me we have people who actually do all of that.


It can work, it's just a matter of how patient you're willing to be in finding the right players. It seems as if we're trying to catch lightning in a bottle.


This system only works if you have a super fast, fast reflex point-gaurd who is a lethal shooter. How many of those exist? Nash, Billups, Kidd in his prime, CP3? This system is unrealistic and is NOT how the game works. That's like saying "I know David Lee doesn't play defense, but we'll keep giving him the ball to outscore them so it is alllllllll goooood." I find the system to be a sham and it doeesn't make you win big. What happens when you vs the Spurs or the Bobcats with excellent D? Your gonna struggle.



agreed 100%. It actually baffles me how few Knick fans want to recognize this. I mean honestly, am I and a few others the only ones watching basketball for more than 5 years?
Who in his right mind would want his team to play a system that can only succeed with a multi skilled,athletic,great shooting bunch of guys?Who in his right mind would want a system that is not based on great basketball fundamentals, a system that is based on winning with defense which has been proven over and over and over again.

Look at Amar'e Stoudamire!Dude was an athletic freak, a freak of nature, a terrific offensive player a few years back. How come this guy is worse than David Lee on defense?If you would have let Skiles or Brown coach a young Stoudamire I'd bet he'd be averaging 11rebounds/2blocks at least and would be called at least average on defense.

I told you guys over and over and over again: D'Antoni's system is nothing special at all. It's a gimmick system that works only if you are more talented than the opposition. You won't ever overachieve with that system---we are seeing what Suns fans were seeing a few years back---we are getting hammered on the boards, we are giving up points in the paint at a rate I haven't even seen under Isiah or Chaney or Wilkens---the Suns had the talent to score 125 when they gave up 118. But if you don't have that talent you are going to suck.
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Post#14 Re: Must Read: From Clyde's book
Wed Mar 3, 2010 9:37 am by Deeeez Knicks

Yeah...if only we had a defensive coach we would have won the title.

D'Antoni has been bad, but no matter which coach we brought in people would bitch just like the past 10 coaches we had.

The best thing I like about D'Antoni is that he has coached all the top free agents before and they all seem to love him. If it helps even just a little to bring in a top free agent I'm all for it.
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Post#15 Re: Must Read: From Clyde's book
Wed Mar 3, 2010 9:37 am by captain subtext

What can you say, Clyde knows what he's talking about. You don't even have to look at the game's history. Just watch how this year's contenders are put together.
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Post#16 Re: Must Read: From Clyde's book
Wed Mar 3, 2010 9:39 am by MrWet

agreed 100%. It actually baffles me how few Knick fans want to recognize this. I mean honestly, am I and a few others the only ones watching basketball for more than 5 years?
Who in his right mind would want his team to play a system that can only succeed with a multi skilled,athletic,great shooting bunch of guys?Who in his right mind would want a system that is not based on great basketball fundamentals, a system that is based on winning with defense which has been proven over and over and over again.

Look at Amar'e Stoudamire!Dude was an athletic freak, a freak of nature, a terrific offensive player a few years back. How come this guy is worse than David Lee on defense?If you would have let Skiles or Brown coach a young Stoudamire I'd bet he'd be averaging 11rebounds/2blocks at least and would be called at least average on defense.

I told you guys over and over and over again: D'Antoni's system is nothing special at all. It's a gimmick system that works only if you are more talented than the opposition. You won't ever overachieve with that system---we are seeing what Suns fans were seeing a few years back---we are getting hammered on the boards, we are giving up points in the paint at a rate I haven't even seen under Isiah or Chaney or Wilkens---the Suns had the talent to score 125 when they gave up 118. But if you don't have that talent you are going to suck.


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Post#17 Re: Must Read: From Clyde's book
Wed Mar 3, 2010 10:30 am by hatnlvr

TheBluest wrote:What Clyde said about the Suns is what we say about No Sharrington making shots. It's the worst thing that could happen....unfortunately most don't get the meaning of this when it's stated.


+1
Clyde hit the nail on the head. Phoenix had talented teams which allowed them to run most teams out of the building but the bottom line is they couldn't win in the playoffs.
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Post#18 Re: Must Read: From Clyde's book
Wed Mar 3, 2010 10:44 am by King of Canada

I think he's wrong. The suns could have won. I mean, HOW MANY great defensive teams didn't win a title???? The 90s Knicks sure didn't. I hate how everybody has an opinion about the Suns. they were one of the absolute best teams of the last decade. If they would have won a title it would have proven that you can win a title with a great offense, just like the Pistons won with a great defense. The likelihood of winning is higher if you are more balanced yes, but it shouldn't take away from what the suns did.

If they would have been in the eastern conference they would have been in the finals several times.
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Post#19 Re: Must Read: From Clyde's book
Wed Mar 3, 2010 10:59 am by JohnStarksTheDunk

Knicksick wrote:agreed 100%. It actually baffles me how few Knick fans want to recognize this. I mean honestly, am I and a few others the only ones watching basketball for more than 5 years?
Who in his right mind would want his team to play a system that can only succeed with a multi skilled,athletic,great shooting bunch of guys?Who in his right mind would want a system that is not based on great basketball fundamentals, a system that is based on winning with defense which has been proven over and over and over again.

Look at Amar'e Stoudamire!Dude was an athletic freak, a freak of nature, a terrific offensive player a few years back. How come this guy is worse than David Lee on defense?If you would have let Skiles or Brown coach a young Stoudamire I'd bet he'd be averaging 11rebounds/2blocks at least and would be called at least average on defense.

I told you guys over and over and over again: D'Antoni's system is nothing special at all. It's a gimmick system that works only if you are more talented than the opposition. You won't ever overachieve with that system---we are seeing what Suns fans were seeing a few years back---we are getting hammered on the boards, we are giving up points in the paint at a rate I haven't even seen under Isiah or Chaney or Wilkens---the Suns had the talent to score 125 when they gave up 118. But if you don't have that talent you are going to suck.


Good post, overall. But I disagree on a few points -- the ones in bold.

1. D'Antoni's system, in theory, is based on sharing and moving the ball. That is a basketball fundamental.

2. Tim Thomas, Boris Diaw, Quentin Richardson, Jim Jackson, and Eddie House all overachieved in that system. Steve Nash also had his best seasons in it. Yes, the Suns were talented, but were they any more talented than the Mavericks, for example? Or those contending Sacramento Kings teams?
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Post#20 Re: Must Read: From Clyde's book
Wed Mar 3, 2010 11:05 am by JohnStarksTheDunk

King of Canada wrote:I think he's wrong. The suns could have won. I mean, HOW MANY great defensive teams didn't win a title???? The 90s Knicks sure didn't. I hate how everybody has an opinion about the Suns. they were one of the absolute best teams of the last decade. If they would have won a title it would have proven that you can win a title with a great offense, just like the Pistons won with a great defense. The likelihood of winning is higher if you are more balanced yes, but it shouldn't take away from what the suns did.

If they would have been in the eastern conference they would have been in the finals several times.


This is actually a valid point. That Suns team went to consecutive Conference Finals in a stacked Western Conference. Everyone talks about how they never won anything, but then again, neither did the Knicks. They only got to the Finals after Jordan retired, and needed 7 games to knock out the Pacers.

Don't get me wrong, I love the 90's Knicks and I've always favored defense over offense. But when you look at the modern era of the NBA, regardless of your system or philosophy, what wins you a title is having a dominant bigman or having the best player in the league (sometimes both). The 2004 Pistons are the only real exception to that.
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