Artest the real choice for DPOY

[Banks2Pierce]

So your gonna ignore what Gortat brought? In the finals gortat was a better defender than Howard.
Dwight is a great shot blocker and avg man to man defender. he aint shutting no one down. Guys like wallace & rodman did both.

Yes, I will ignore what Gortat brought since he plays 12 minutes a game. I do like Gortat and think he skews the on/off court numbers quite a bit.

[mysticbb]

Can you post your link for updated on/off court DRtg. The only one I know of is showing different numbers but they are not updated for 2 weeks.

http://basketballvalue.com/index.php

This site is usually updated once a day, sometimes it takes two days.

Ok, why don't we use an even better use of +/- in APM. Howard is currently 2nd in the league in APM while Ron Artest is 32. There goes that theory.

More number breakdown can be seen here http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=4516

It is a month old but nonetheless still shows Howard's impact. And then you have to consider that big men always are involved in more plays defensively and thusly can impact the games more often. Howard is currently the best at doing this. Then as someone else mentioned he has a greater DRT and more DWS and well.

Well, it is Dan Rosenbaum's model and I don't like it at all. He uses the boxscore stats to make the adjustments, therefore a player with good boxscore stats will look always better. There are APM without using boxscore numbers like WinVal by Winston/Sagarin or the model by Barzilai/Iliardi.

Joe Sill is using an "improved" called Regularized APM. Here are the numbers from 25.02.2010:
http://hoopnumbers.com/allAnalysisView?analysis=defRAPM

As you can see Artest has a better defensive APM than Howard.

[LLcoleJ]

So Last year did you think our Bigs was DPOY worthy for anchoring our defense to 5th best? Because in this post below you think its what makes Howard DPOY



oh yea I like how you call guys like Nelson Vince Barnes horrible. Ever heard of Fisher?

No, because it is a collection of 3 very capable bigs that protect the rim rather than ONE MAN.

Again, all the credit to Howard who is the DPOY. But it is more about just " protecting the rim" You have to consider other factors too.

It's not like Howard is chasing some of the most dynamic scorers in the game around the court/perimeter all game.

I would feel alot more comfortable putting Artest in a 2 man race with Howard had he not missed those games and came back with his plantier foot issues. but pre the injury and and this past month he has been about as good as you can get and the team has certainly benefited from that.

So even coming in second not matter how close or far people want to think it is, I am happy with Ron's defense.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

It's easy to look good defensively if your help defense consists of two mobile seven footers.

Artest has been solid, but he's not a DPOTY and it will be a sham if he makes the 1st team and questionable at best if he makes the second team. He's limited in what he can do because of his declining lateral speed. Being physical against guys that can't blow by him and using his body and strength to get through screens is what he does well, and to his credit, that's what he's done. It's not DPOTY material though, that's for damn sure.

[AdamTheGreek]

should I list the below avg Centers who has had great games vs Howard?

Do it !

just a quick skim through games

Bargs aint avg but he got over his avg vs Howard
26pts 66%fg his avg 17pts 47%

Krstic 14pts 58% his avg 8ppg 49%

Randolph (GSW) 28pts 13rpg his avg 11ppg 6rpg

Shaq 20pts and only one missed fg attempt? lol

Haywood 18pts 15 rebs fg% 100% LOL his avg 9ppg 10rpg 56%fg

Can tell you right now that all but 2-3 made shots were against Marcin since Dwight was stuck on the bench.

[GatorKid117]

Can you post your link for updated on/off court DRtg. The only one I know of is showing different numbers but they are not updated for 2 weeks.

http://basketballvalue.com/index.php

This site is usually updated once a day, sometimes it takes two days.

Ok, why don't we use an even better use of +/- in APM. Howard is currently 2nd in the league in APM while Ron Artest is 32. There goes that theory.

More number breakdown can be seen here http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=4516

It is a month old but nonetheless still shows Howard's impact. And then you have to consider that big men always are involved in more plays defensively and thusly can impact the games more often. Howard is currently the best at doing this. Then as someone else mentioned he has a greater DRT and more DWS and well.

Well, it is Dan Rosenbaum's model and I don't like it at all. He uses the boxscore stats to make the adjustments, therefore a player with good boxscore stats will look always better. There are APM without using boxscore numbers like WinVal by Winston/Sagarin or the model by Barzilai/Iliardi.

Joe Sill is using an "improved" called Regularized APM. Here are the numbers from 25.02.2010:
http://hoopnumbers.com/allAnalysisView?analysis=defRAPM

As you can see Artest has a better defensive APM than Howard.

I guess it's all prefrence. But that model currently has Jameer Nelson as a better defender than Dwight, Gerald Wallace the worst defender on his team and Mo Pete as pretty much the best defender in the league. I think the normal APM is a much better indicator. Players are actually located where I would expect them to be.

[wreck]

Ron Artest for DPOY?

This thread just continues to prove how Lamar Odom continues to be underrated by people that watch LA games.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Can tell you right now that all but 2-3 made shots were against Marcin since Dwight was stuck on the bench.

Ehh, I'd say it was about 50-50. Shaq got heated up on Marcin, for sure, but then kept it up even when D12 came in.

Let's just say that the recent games against Shaq are maybe the only blemishes on Dwight's resume. I mean, really, the DPOTY needs double team help BEFORE 38 year old Shaq even gets the ball?

Now, Dwight is still the DPOTY, but it's partially because nobody else in the league is even close to deserving while he's still really really really good. I think Wade or Bron could make a run at it one year, but they take it too easy on the defensive end for the first 42 minutes of games.

[LLcoleJ]

This thread just continues to prove how Lamar Odom continues to be underrated by people that watch LA games.

So you are implying that I underrate Lamar Odom? Please.

[jzmagik]

i love how all the Lakers players just became great defenders when before this thread they were all soft and all offense.

I also love how players suddenly become much better in a Lakers Jersey and should win every award possible. Artest wasn't even the best defender on his own team last year.

Real talk, its because of threads like these that the General Board has gone down the drain so much.

[LLcoleJ]

i love how all the Lakers players just became great defenders when before this thread they were all soft and all offense.

I also love how players suddenly become much better in a Lakers Jersey and should win every award possible. Artest wasn't even the best defender on his own team last year.

Real talk, its because of threads like these that the General Board has gone down the drain so much.

I think it has alot more to do with Houston and Sacramento fans bitter that he is playing better defense for a hated team like the Lakers.

[LakersSquad]

It's easy to look good defensively if your help defense consists of two mobile seven footers.

Artest has been solid, but he's not a DPOTY and it will be a sham if he makes the 1st team and questionable at best if he makes the second team. He's limited in what he can do because of his declining lateral speed. Being physical against guys that can't blow by him and using his body and strength to get through screens is what he does well, and to his credit, that's what he's done. It's not DPOTY material though, that's for damn sure.

LMAO your a joke seriously

[LakersSquad]

i love how all the Lakers players just became great defenders when before this thread they were all soft and all offense.

I also love how players suddenly become much better in a Lakers Jersey and should win every award possible. Artest wasn't even the best defender on his own team last year.

Real talk, its because of threads like these that the General Board has gone down the drain so much.

I think its due more to fans like yourself.

[GameOver25]

C'mon now Laker fans, lets be fair. Artest is solid no doubt. He's a solid 1 on 1 defender. But Howard wins this easily because he's the defensive anchor for the whole team. You guys have 7'3 Bynum and 7'0 Gasol also in the paint. And don't forget Kobe on the wing. Artest shouldn't even be in the same sentence as Howard for DPOY.

[mysticbb]

I guess it's all prefrence. But that model currently has Jameer Nelson as a better defender than Dwight, Gerald Wallace the worst defender on his team and Mo Pete as pretty much the best defender in the league. I think the normal APM is a much better indicator. Players are actually located where I would expect them to be.

Maybe you clicked on the wrong link, but Wallace has a -1.7 and is way better than Jackson with +2.0 on the Bobcats. You should also figure in the error. The difference between Nelson and Howard is 1, while the error is +/- 2.4. The difference is too small as if I would say Nelson is the better defender.

Anyway, you may be right about the preferences. I prefer stats which are independent from each other to get two seperate looks at a player via stats. If both things are in agreement with my visual oberservation I'm pretty confident that I judge the player correctly. Well, it becomes interesting, if something is not in line.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

It's easy to look good defensively if your help defense consists of two mobile seven footers.

Artest has been solid, but he's not a DPOTY and it will be a sham if he makes the 1st team and questionable at best if he makes the second team. He's limited in what he can do because of his declining lateral speed. Being physical against guys that can't blow by him and using his body and strength to get through screens is what he does well, and to his credit, that's what he's done. It's not DPOTY material though, that's for damn sure.

LMAO your a joke seriously

Good argument.

[LLcoleJ]

It's easy to look good defensively if your help defense consists of two mobile seven footers.

Artest has been solid, but he's not a DPOTY and it will be a sham if he makes the 1st team and questionable at best if he makes the second team. He's limited in what he can do because of his declining lateral speed. Being physical against guys that can't blow by him and using his body and strength to get through screens is what he does well, and to his credit, that's what he's done. It's not DPOTY material though, that's for damn sure.

So if Ron shoudnt get 1st or 2nd team ALL Defense , my guess would be that it should go to Lebron in your eyes, right? The same Lebron that in this very same post thread that takes it easy for the first 42 minutes. So, a free safety defender who only plays defense the last 6 minutes of the game is worthy over someone like Ron who focuses merely the entire game on defense?

Now, if my assumption is wrong about your Lebron pick, then who would deserve it more than Ron at the SF position?

[bicatmit]

One other thing to consider when discussing DPOY and Dwight Howard is the fact that the Orlando Magic led the league in defensive efficiency last year and are 3rd this year (100.0), behind LA (99.2) and Boston (99.6). When you consider the defensive capabilities of Orlando's starters vs. LA's, it becomes apparent how valuable Dwight Howard is at defending the basket.

Take away Ron Artest and the Lakers still have an All-NBA Defensive First Team candidate in Kobe Bryant, a solid defensive center in Bynum, and Gasol and Fisher, who aren't too shabby.

With Orlando, the only other guy in the starting lineup who can be considered an above-average defender is Matt Barnes. Jameer and VC are pretty awful, actually. Dwight is such a forceful presence in the middle that the Magic's lackluster defensive guards can get up on their man on the perimeter knowing that if they get blown by, D12 has their back.

[LakersSquad]

C'mon now Laker fans, lets be fair. Artest is solid no doubt. He's a solid 1 on 1 defender. But Howard wins this easily because he's the defensive anchor for the whole team. You guys have 7'3 Bynum and 7'0 Gasol also in the paint. And don't forget Kobe on the wing. Artest shouldn't even be in the same sentence as Howard for DPOY.

Pau has been terrible on defense this year don't make them into all defensive team bigs all of sudden. Yes their tall but so is dirk, shaq, Big Z, KG & wallace etc... Height doesn't = defense. Like I said before we're dead last in 3pt fg% since rons arrived. We're the best defensive team this year because of Ron.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

So if Ron shoudnt get 1st or 2nd team ALL Defense , my guess would be that it should go to Lebron in your eyes, right? The same Lebron that in this very same post thread that takes it easy for the first 42 minutes. So, a free safety defender who only plays defense the last 6 minutes of the game is worthy over someone like Ron who focuses merely the entire game on defense?

Now, if my assumption is wrong about your Lebron pick, then who would deserve it more than Ron at the SF position?

Well, if you go read the "all-defensive selections" thread that was recently on here, I didn't have LeBron on EITHER team.



My four forwards are Gerald Wallace(1st team), Anderson Varejao(1st team), Josh Smith(2nd team), Shane Battier(2nd team).

Now, aside from arguments about 1st or 2nd team, etc etc...the only guy on that list that is questionable that Artest could replace without it being a sham is Shane Battier, and that is very arguable. I just feel that Battier is still a better defensive player than him from what I've seen both of them do this season,