Ersan Ilyasova tracking thread (Brewhoop article pg 39)

[goktr001]

I think, for now, what Bosh was for Toronto now Ersan it is.

[Sigra]

The other thing that is puzzling is that looking back, Hammond's two "best" moves are probably drafting Jennings and hiring Skiles. Yet you don't like either of those guys. Mind-boggling that you are still enthralled with a guy with such a poor track record.

I explained why I like Hammond. He is doing what I want to do most of the time. What else can I ask for?

Now, the reason why it didn't work better is because of injuries and because our options were limited to start with (bad talent in last few drafts and being in Milwaukee you know). But even with that I beleive we (Hammond and myself) have a good track record.

1st season: Big improvement over previous season even with 2 best players missing most of the season.
2nd season: FTD season and EOTY in the pocket
3rd season: 35 wins with Bogut playing with one arm and missing 17 games, Jennings missing 19 games, Delfino missing 33 games, Gooden missing 47 games, Ersan missing 22 games and so on.
4th season: playing .500 ball with our best player Bogut playing only in 12 games and then having to adjust to new players in the middle of playoff fight. Maybe our 2nd most important player Moute missed 18 games so far and played injured in some. Some other injuries as well but most teams have some injuries so lets ignore minor ones.

[Wooderson]

The other thing that is puzzling is that looking back, Hammond's two "best" moves are probably drafting Jennings and hiring Skiles. Yet you don't like either of those guys. Mind-boggling that you are still enthralled with a guy with such a poor track record.

I explained why I like Hammond. He is doing what I want to do most of the time. What else can I ask for?

Now, the reason why it didn't work better is because of injuries and because our options were limited to start with (bad talent in last few drafts and being in Milwaukee you know). But even with that I beleive we (Hammond and myself) have a good track record.

1st season: Big improvement over previous season even with 2 best players missing most of the season.
2nd season: FTD season and EOTY in the pocket
3rd season: 35 wins with Bogut playing with one arm and missing 17 games, Jennings missing 19 games, Delfino missing 33 games, Gooden missing 47 games, Ersan missing 22 games and so on.
4th season: playing .500 ball with our best player Bogut playing only in 12 games and then having to adjust to new players in the middle of playoff fight. Maybe our 2nd most important player Moute missed 18 games so far and played injured in some. Some other injuries as well but most teams have some injuries so lets ignore minor ones.

A couple points I do agree with with. Hammond did a good job his first two years (the Alexander misstep being the only blunder, and although it was a big one, the Moute pick offset it a bit).

And also that the Bogut elbow injury was a huge setback. Sure Bogut may incurred a different injury if he didn't fall on his elbow, but it most likely wouldn't have destroyed Bogut's offense. For a player who relies so heavily on confidence with offensive game, basically having to re-learn everything with his right arm as well as missing the complete offseason giving him very little time to practice, it was a recipe for disaster.

However, Hammond should have been aware of those factors and taken them into consideration when making moves in the offseason. The first and most important thing he should have done was get a backup center for Bogut. Not only so the team isn't forced to play Bogut 35+ a night, but also so that if Bogut wasn't healthy going into the season, they could rest him and get away with it because they have Kurt Thomas or different backup ready to fill the void.

Hammond banked on Bogut being able to play during the offseason even though we were only a couple months removed from the gruesome injury and also with the season still being months away. Bogut was pretty much forced to play at the beginning of the season with him being the only center on the roster.

So instead of trying to sign a backup for Bogut, he immediately goes out and blows 32 million on Drew Gooden, trades for Corey Maggette, and continues the cycle of getting overpaid verterans that started with Richard Jefferson.

You don't get to say Hammond was unlucky with Bogut, especially this year, without acknowledging that he completely failed to get an adequate backup. He had money available and he pooped it away.

You also can't say that Ersan/Jennings aren't very good, but then point to their injuries as excuses for the team is underperforming. Those are completely contradictory statements.

Hammond has been absolutely pathetic with his asset management the last two years. Dunleavy is literally the only positive move he has made since after the FTD year.

[Ayt]

Bosh averaged 23-11 on a team that won 47 games when he was 22 FFS. Come on people. The second leading scorer on that team was Midget Ford. The next best rebounder averaged only 4.9 per game.

[Sigra]

However, Hammond should have been aware of those factors and taken them into consideration when making moves in the offseason. The first and most important thing he should have done was get a backup center for Bogut. Not only so the team isn't forced to play Bogut 35+ a night, but also so that if Bogut wasn't healthy going into the season, they could rest him and get away with it because they have Kurt Thomas or different backup ready to fill the void.

I never understood that "backup C" argument. If your best player is injured most of the season or if he plays with one arm then you are screwed unless his backup is on his level. And you will not find C on Bogut's level to be his backup. If you don't understand what I am talking about just imagine Cavs when LeBron played for them and their fans saying "but our GM didn't find good backup at SF position". Off course Bogut is not LeBron but I am using that example to make a point. Bogut was our main player in FTD both at defense and offense. He was our defensive anchor and at offense he was the guy who had to be double teamed. He was everything that #1 pick should be and our tanking for him looked justified. You can find solid backup for him but if he is injured you are done no matter what. He WAS the Bucks and you can't adjust to losing player who is your indentity and main force at both defense and offense. Good backup would help if your main player miss a game or 10 games but not if he miss most of the season or play with one arm all season.

So instead of trying to sign a backup for Bogut, he immediately goes out and blows 32 million on Drew Gooden,

Gooden was designated backup for Bogut. It just hapened that missed 47 games that year.

trades for Corey Maggette, and continues the cycle of getting overpaid verterans that started with Richard Jefferson.

Those were his attempts to find our Zach Randolph. Desperate moves by desperate man.

You also can't say that Ersan/Jennings aren't very good, but then point to their injuries as excuses for the team is underperforming. Those are completely contradictory statements.

Sure I can. Jennings is not good but he is way batter than Boykins or Dooling. Ersan is not good but he is way better than Brockman or Sanders.

Hammond has been absolutely pathetic with his asset management the last two years. Dunleavy is literally the only positive move he has made since after the FTD year.

This Bogut trade will look great next year when Bogut again miss most of the season for some reason. I beleive it is amazing that he got this much for a player who is injured each season most of the season. re-signing Moute was positive as well. And finally, having this much cap space next year will hopefully turn positive with new CBA.

[Wooderson]

So basically, Hammond's last four year have been a combination of bad luck and desperation. Got it.

Maybe Hammond is just cursed? We should probably find a different GM who isn't so unlucky.

[Wooderson]

I never understood that "backup C" argument. If your best player is injured most of the season or if he plays with one arm then you are screwed unless his backup is on his level. And you will not find C on Bogut's level to be his backup. If you don't understand what I am talking about just imagine Cavs when LeBron played for them and their fans saying "but our GM didn't find good backup at SF position". Off course Bogut is not LeBron but I am using that example to make a point. Bogut was our main player in FTD both at defense and offense. He was our defensive anchor and at offense he was the guy who had to be double teamed. He was everything that #1 pick should be and our tanking for him looked justified. You can find solid backup for him but if he is injured you are done no matter what. He WAS the Bucks and you can't adjust to losing player who is your indentity and main force at both defense and offense. Good backup would help if your main player miss a game or 10 games but not if he miss most of the season or play with one arm all season.

Backup center is extremely different than backup SF - especially for a team whose success is predicated on defense. That much should be obvious.

And to your point about Gooden being signed as a backup C. You have posted in the past that it isn't Gooden's fault he's playing center (when discussing his problems on defense). Clearly then Hammond made a grave mistake casting Gooden in a role he isn't suited for.

[AussieBuck]

He also posted that Jennings being injured was addition by subtraction because Dooling and Boykins were better. He's been on both sides of nearly every argument over the last 4 years trying to justify Hammonds' failure.

[Ayt]

He also posted that Jennings being injured was addition by subtraction because Dooling and Boykins were better. He's been on both sides of nearly every argument over the last 4 years trying to justify Hammonds' failure.

Sounds reasonable.

[Fort Minor]

Aldridge with only 6 at the half. What's he thinking? Doesn't he know Ersan is a horrible defender?

[dabenti]

Compare Ersan with Bosh? It's absurd.
Bosh is a good offensive weapon. But Bucks never use Ersan as an offensive weapon.

Bosh was always first choice for offense in Toronto. But Ersan?
First Jennings, second Ellis, not even third. It's Gooden if he is in first 5. Ersan creates his chances from offensive rebounds usually. Bucks have any offensive set for Ersan? If you compare him to Bosh, you need to set offensive plays for Ersan, a lot.

Bosh is played with Calderon for a couple of years. Calderon is a gigantic blackhole as a defender but he is way better as a playmaker than Jennings and Ellis.

If you want a compare, lets be objective!

Look Bosh's stats:
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/chris_bos ... stats.html

Look Ersan's stats:
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/ersan_ily ... stats.html

Now compare their minutes and field goals attempts.
Bosh field goals attempts per game in Toronto, never go under 15-16.
Ersan's? This season's average is almost 10.

5-6 field goals means 3-5 points at the minimum. If he tries more shots, he can get more free throws too. Count that too.

Bosh's minutes? Never goes under 36. Only exception is his rookie season, 33.5. It's still too high for Ersan's minutes.

Ersan's minutes? This season is 27.7 per game. He has only starter minutes, means not a very important part of team, absolutely not a franchise player!
After Jennings, Ellis, Delfino. He is fourth in the team. +1 minutes to Gooden and Dunleavy.

Toronto drafted Bosh and builded the team around him. Everything was for him, only for him.
Capisce?
So, never, but never compare Ersan to a franchise player until he becomes to one of them.

[ReasonablySober]

A Bosh lead team was over .500 once during his tenure there. For all the talk of how much of a franchise player he is (he isn't) he hasn't seen much success until he became a 3rd option.

[Fort Minor]

A Bosh lead team was over .500 once during his tenure there. For all the talk of how much of a franchise player he is (he isn't) he hasn't seen much success until he became a 3rd option.

[SpursNBucks]

A Bosh lead team was over .500 once during his tenure there. For all the talk of how much of a franchise player he is (he isn't) he hasn't seen much success until he became a 3rd option.

I think Bosh is a borderline "franchise" player - he had awful talent around him with Toronto. Do you think it is possible the turn-around with success has something to do with Wade and James?

If this started as how does he compare with Ersan- he is A LOT better player then Ersan. I'm a homer too, but you can only take it so far.

[ReasonablySober]

Yes, his success is because he's playing with two players significantly better than he is.

As for his comparison to Ersan, I said that Miami would be better with Ilyasova. That doesn't have much to do with who is more talented in my opinion. It's more a reflection on what Miami could use and what both players provide. Ersan gives them a big man that can stretch the floor, a great defender and elite rebounder that doesn't need the ball.