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Fields issue

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Re: Fields issue 

Post#141 » by JBravo7777 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:30 pm

seren wrote:Wilbon was on 1050 today. Was asked about the game yesterday. He said Shump/Fields make a great tandem and mentioned about the chemistry. He said he does not understand why Woodson is playing JR so much. They mentioned about the possibility that it is because JR is a CAA client. Is this true? Do anyone think this may have some contribution to overusing JR? Dude is getting minutes he never got in Denver.


Wilbon is a Bulls fan so he wants Fields on the floor..The Bulls got away with putting Noah on Fields. That shows you how much respect the Bulls coaching staff has for Landry Fields! That put a center on him and were never worried.. JR is way better than Fields on the defensive end of the floor and its not even close when it comes to ball handling and 3 point shooting and free throw shooting. Its a no brainer to have JR finish games over Fields. Dantoni would of quickly yanked JR out of that game. Give Woodson credit for sticking with JR even when he is struggling because he helped win that game at the end.
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Re: Fields issue 

Post#142 » by seren » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:32 pm

JBravo7777 wrote:
seren wrote:Wilbon was on 1050 today. Was asked about the game yesterday. He said Shump/Fields make a great tandem and mentioned about the chemistry. He said he does not understand why Woodson is playing JR so much. They mentioned about the possibility that it is because JR is a CAA client. Is this true? Do anyone think this may have some contribution to overusing JR? Dude is getting minutes he never got in Denver.


Wilbon is a Bulls fan so he wants Fields on the floor..The Bulls got away with putting Noah on Fields. That shows you how much respect the Bulls coaching staff has for Landry Fields! That put a center on him and were never worried.. JR is way better than Fields on the defensive end of the floor and its not even close when it comes to ball handling and 3 point shooting and free throw shooting. Its a no brainer to have JR finish games over Fields. Dantoni would of quickly yanked JR out of that game. Give Woodson credit for sticking with JR even when he is struggling because he helped win that game at the end.


We outscored the Bulls when Fields was on the floor last night. When JR was on the floor we were outscored dearly. We are talking about a 20 point difference here.
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Re: Fields issue 

Post#143 » by Knickstape1214 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:34 pm

seren wrote:
Paco wrote:
seren wrote:yep.

Matt Bonner has the best +/- on the Spurs (and 9th highest in the NBA).


And you believe Matt Bonner should get less minutes and someone else gets more minutes?


You asked for an example of +/- being rendered useless. I provided one.

Edit -- didn't see your edit. Gimme a sec...I'll see if I can find one.

Can't find one -- but another misleading example of +/- is Shawn Marion this year: -19.
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Re: Fields issue 

Post#144 » by JBravo7777 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:35 pm

seren wrote:
JBravo7777 wrote:
seren wrote:Wilbon was on 1050 today. Was asked about the game yesterday. He said Shump/Fields make a great tandem and mentioned about the chemistry. He said he does not understand why Woodson is playing JR so much. They mentioned about the possibility that it is because JR is a CAA client. Is this true? Do anyone think this may have some contribution to overusing JR? Dude is getting minutes he never got in Denver.


Wilbon is a Bulls fan so he wants Fields on the floor..The Bulls got away with putting Noah on Fields. That shows you how much respect the Bulls coaching staff has for Landry Fields! That put a center on him and were never worried.. JR is way better than Fields on the defensive end of the floor and its not even close when it comes to ball handling and 3 point shooting and free throw shooting. Its a no brainer to have JR finish games over Fields. Dantoni would of quickly yanked JR out of that game. Give Woodson credit for sticking with JR even when he is struggling because he helped win that game at the end.


We outscored the Bulls when Fields was on the floor last night. When JR was on the floor we were outscored dearly. We are talking about a 20 point difference here.


That was one game. Lets remember that JR is coming off the bench and playing with Jefferies and Toney Douglas. Fields plays most of his mins with Chandler Shump and Melo so he can hide behind our better players and still look good.
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Re: Fields issue 

Post#145 » by seren » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:36 pm

Paco wrote:
seren wrote:
Paco wrote:Matt Bonner has the best +/- on the Spurs (and 9th highest in the NBA).


And you believe Matt Bonner should get less minutes and someone else gets more minutes?


You asked for an example of +/- being rendered useless. I provided one.

Edit -- didn't see your edit. Gimme a sec...I'll see if I can find one.


Not really. Matt Bonner is a net contributor to a championship level team. He is shooting a great percentage from threes. I would take him over JR Smith for sure.
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Re: Fields issue 

Post#146 » by seren » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:38 pm

JBravo7777 wrote:
That was one game. Lets remember that JR is coming off the bench and playing with Jefferies and Toney Douglas. Fields plays most of his mins with Chandler Shump and Melo so he can hide behind our better players and still look good.


That was a continuation of the Sunday game which he was even worse. The interesting thing is the starting lineup gets worse when JR is part of it. Coincidence? No. Zero ball movement and fast breaks from long rebounds of chucking does that to you.
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Re: Fields issue 

Post#147 » by Knickstape1214 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:41 pm

seren wrote:
Paco wrote:
seren wrote:
And you believe Matt Bonner should get less minutes and someone else gets more minutes?


You asked for an example of +/- being rendered useless. I provided one.

Edit -- didn't see your edit. Gimme a sec...I'll see if I can find one.


Not really. Matt Bonner is a net contributor to a championship level team. He is shooting a great percentage from threes. I would take him over JR Smith for sure.


But he's not more important to his team than Duncan, Manu, Splitter (yes, Splitter), or Parker.

Shawn Marion has a "-" +/- this year.

Batum also has a "-" +/- this year.
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Re: Fields issue 

Post#148 » by Sark » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:43 pm

Deron Williams and Marshon Brooks have 2 of the 3 worst +/- on the Nets. Clearly they need to get those guys off the floor, and maybe they can win some games.
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Re: Fields issue 

Post#149 » by JBravo7777 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:46 pm

seren wrote:
JBravo7777 wrote:
That was one game. Lets remember that JR is coming off the bench and playing with Jefferies and Toney Douglas. Fields plays most of his mins with Chandler Shump and Melo so he can hide behind our better players and still look good.


That was a continuation of the Sunday game which he was even worse. The interesting thing is the starting lineup gets worse when JR is part of it. Coincidence? No. Zero ball movement and fast breaks from long rebounds of chucking does that to you.


Since Woodson has taken over the Knicks are 11-4 and he has JR finishing with the starting lineup in almost every win. With Landry finishing games when Dantoni was coaching the Knicks were 6 games below 500.
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Re: Fields issue 

Post#150 » by JustaKnickFan » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:01 pm

Fields has the highest +/- because he plays with the starters all the time, and the Knicks bench is usually the thing killing them. Especially now with Baron Davis and Shumpert starting. +/- is a good stat though.
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Re: Fields issue 

Post#151 » by GONYK » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:03 pm

Is there a stat more useless than +/-?
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Re: Fields issue 

Post#152 » by NowWHYcee7 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:41 pm

GONYK wrote:Is there a stat more useless than +/-?


nope. but hey, something has to justify the salaries of people who get paid to analyze this kind of nonsense. if you're watching the games, you know who's producing and who's not.

I don't care if fields is a -85, I just want him to hit a an open jumper.
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Re: Fields issue 

Post#153 » by Woodsanity » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:43 pm

GONYK wrote:Is there a stat more useless than +/-?

Personal fouls per game?
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Re: Fields issue 

Post#154 » by Thugger HBC » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:07 pm

People just need to not relate it to thinking that particular players time on the court should be determined by it.

It's not dumb, it's not useless, and it's not great.

It's a stat.

Like every other stat, it's a numerical value assigned to a specific aspect of the game observed, having implications either positive or negative, and like every other stat, unless looked at in a game by game basis and/or contextual manner will yield erronous conclusions.

Saying it's useless or stupid is as ignorant as saying it's a great indicator of value.
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Re: Fields issue 

Post#155 » by Knick Swisher » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:17 pm

Sark wrote:
Knick Swisher wrote:It's hilarious that people are lauding JR as a good defender while saying Fields sucks, when JR was the one who missed a couple backdoor cuts and was getting beat around screens by Korver, while Fields played solid defense, and has for a while now



http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks ... -to-fields

Below is a breakdown of Fields' defensive numbers, as provided by ESPN Stats & Info. Keep in mind they are all outcome-based, meaning if the player the defender is guarding shoots, gets fouled, or turns it over, the following stats take that into account. But if the player gets the ball and eventually passes off, that’s not factored in (it’s an inexact science).

As a primary on-the-ball defender this season, Fields is allowing 0.915 points per play. Among NBA players with at least 200 defensive plays, that ranks tied for 229th out of 273 players.

The player Fields is guarding scores on 42.1 percent of the plays in which a field goal occurs, a shooting foul is drawn or a turnover occurs. His 42.1 percentage ranks tied for 228th out of the 273 players who have at least 200 defensive plays. (Score percentage is the percentage of plays in which at least one point is scored.)

Among the 14 Knicks players with a minimum of 50 plays as an on-the-ball defender, Fields ranks dead last in allowing points per play (0.915) and score percentage (42.1).

so you provide an article with stats that states it doesn't take important factors into consideration?

No one is saying Fields is a great or even good defender, in fact, you can usually count on him having 1 or 2 defensive lapses a night, but to say he sucks is way overblown, especially since Woody's taken over.
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Re: Fields issue 

Post#156 » by Deeeez Knicks » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:19 pm

Adjusted +/- is not totally useless, but of course it can be deceiving and doesn't tell even half the story.

Take Matt Bonner. His +/- doesn't mean he's better then Duncan, etc. It does tell me that he is a useful player that helps his team when you dig deeper.

What Fields +/- tells me is that he is not hurting this team. Too many people say he is useless and is killing the team. They make it sound like we are playing 4 on 5 on both ends of the court. Or that Fields kills our spacing and the offense can't operate. What the +/- tells me is that the team is successful with Fields on the court. When you dig deeper you can see why. Fields is:

#9 among SGs in Assist to TO ratio
#6 among SGs in steals
#4 among SGs in rebounds
#3 among SGs in fg% (if he qualified...doesn't qualify because he plays within himself)

Fields is a very underrated passer/ball handler. He consistently makes some really nice passes every game. He runs the pick n roll very well. Overall he makes good decisions thus his high assist/TO ratio.

His high fg % is a result of getting so many dunks/layups. Its not an accident that he gets so many dunks and easy baskets. Its a skill to be able to cut or get out on the break or be in position to catch an alley oop. Its a skill that helps spacing. Its not an easy skill to have else everyone in the league would be shooting 50%.

His high steal and rebound numbers is a result of hustle and length. He is able to tip a lot of balls and create turnovers. He's in the right spot at the right time because he has a good court awareness.

In general, we do have good spacing with Fields on the floor which is why the team is successful. Its because you do not need to stand outside the 3 point line in order to properly space the floor. ts a false notion that you need 4 guys around the 3 point line. The triangle offense is a great example of how its possible to isolate and provide great spacing with cutters and players on the weak side. Nice, timely passing is also a must in order to space the floor. Fields swings the ball very quickly and to the right spot. That along with Fields ability to play off the ball and cut helps our ball movement which has been a key to our offense.

Of course Fields has his weakness's. His shot has been terrible. I don't think anyone is saying he should be playing 30/35 min a game. But he is fine in the roll he is in now. No doubt we could upgrade, but right now he is our best option to start.
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Re: Fields issue 

Post#157 » by seren » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:25 pm

As we have seen last night, giving Fields extended minutes help us win some games.
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Re: Fields issue 

Post#158 » by Rudruff » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:58 pm

This criticism of Fields because he can't create his own shot is silly. He isn't a primary offensive threat so the only shots he should be taking are ones within the flow of the offense.

If someone on the court needs to create their own shot it should be Melo. Everyone else needs to be shooting when they are open or passing to the open man.

Fields get to play because he makes good decisions with the basketball and coaches don't have to worry about him chucking.
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Re: Fields issue 

Post#159 » by moocow007 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:20 pm

GONYK wrote:Fields can't create his own shot, and the defense doesn't respect him from the perimeter. He's also a worse defender.

Though I do wonder if we would be seeing so much JR if Lin or Amare were healthy


Yeah I think that's part of the issue. Without a true playmaker (at least not one that can play more than about 18-20 minutes a game) Woodson has to rely more on guys that can ISO. Right now, the two best ISO guys he has is Anthony and Smith. Shumpert has the potential but he's still not really a guy that appears comfortable creating his own shot off the dribble from an ISO start. I think that's why you see Smith play so much. Part of it may be CAA ties. Part of it may be Woodson wanting to stick by Smith to keep him focused the rest of the way. Part of it could be that Fields, as he's shown in the past, isn't at his best when the offense relies more on ISO than movement (which is what he's good at). Without a guy that can consistently get the ball to Fields when he cuts to the basket or gets to an open spot the less useful he is offensively. And defensively the way the Knicks have been playing defense that heavily relies on ball denial and in that respect Smith is better at it than Fields is. Sure Smith makes bonehead plays and takes ugly shots but those are shots that Fields probably would not be able to consistently even be able to take much less make.
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Re: Fields issue 

Post#160 » by moocow007 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:24 pm

Rudruff wrote:This criticism of Fields because he can't create his own shot is silly. He isn't a primary offensive threat so the only shots he should be taking are ones within the flow of the offense.

If someone on the court needs to create their own shot it should be Melo. Everyone else needs to be shooting when they are open or passing to the open man.

Fields get to play because he makes good decisions with the basketball and coaches don't have to worry about him chucking.


In heavy ISO systems having guys that can't score but "makes good decisions" isn't as necessary. And defensively, as smart as Fields is, he just cannot guard the perimeter like Woodson expects/wants his guards to defend (right up in the mans grill bothering and harrasing and looking to cut off the passing lanes). Not a knock against Fields in general but he doesn't fit what Woodson wants to do. Now if Lin was playing and/or Davis was healthy(er) then sure I would expect Fields to be more productive.
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