Moses vs Dirk

[kasino]

who do you build around?
who will end higher all-time?

[ahonui06]

1) DIRK
2) DIRK

[JustCame]

1) DIRK
2) DIRK

I agree with you here. lol

[kasino]

the better scorer/rebounder/defender isn't picked here?

[LikeABosh]

I'd rather build around moses and he should rank higher all time

[ReaLiez]

Moses Malone
Tough call, I have Malone around 15ish

I would even take KG over Dirk but that's another topic

[DirtyDez]

MOSES for me... First 15 full seasons in the NBA. 23/13 on 49%. 15 years!

Plus 3 MVP's and 1 FMVP's...

[mysticbb]

the better scorer/rebounder/defender isn't picked here?

Playoff numbers. All 12 years for Nowitzki and for Malone from 1979 to 1989.

Code: Select all

              Gm   PPG   TS%   ORB%  DRB%  AST%  TOV%  STL%  BLK%  PER  WS/48
Malone        77   23.8  54.8  14.1  23.4  6.5   11.3  1.1   2.4   22.1 0.177
Nowitzki     128   25.9  58.4  4.2   24.6  11.8  9.4   1.4   1.8   24.7 0.205


So, overall Malone had a couple of more blocked shots and the higher ORB%. The higher BLK% came from Malone rather trying to block a shot than really defend the position and the higher ORB% was a result of Malone playing strictly underneath the opponents basket. Overall Malone's playing style did not lead to a huge impact. His defense was mediocre at best, him being late back on defense was making the defense rather worse. Nowitzki has to be seen as the better defender.
Malone's positional advantage underneath the own basket did not lead to a higher percentage of rebounds. That is a big indicator that Nowitzki is indeed the better rebounder. The raw boxscore numbers are giving a misleading impression here.
Nowitzki has a huge advantage in terms of passing and ball handling, something which can't be ignored. Overall Nowitzki was the higher impact player and a look at the advanced boxscore metrics reveals him also having the better combination of production and efficiency. Thus, the logical choice has to be Nowitzki in both cases. Especially for the team building aspect we have to see that Malone missed more games.

[kasino]

Moses
22/14/1.6 on .48%

Dirk
25/10/.9 on .46%

Dirk well undoubtably stay as the better PS scorer of the two while Moses is of course the better regular season scorer is at 25ppg for his first 13 NBA seasons

Moses is unquestionably a better rebounder then Dirk PS and RS

I don't understand your use of percentages, those that are in favor of Malone come with negativity from you
Dirk has never been called a good defender while Moses has, its not unthinkable that he would block more shots

he took a very Lebron Cavs Rockets team to the Finals against Bird Celtics
then had one of the best PS runs with Philly, imo having a better performance then Dirk

[TheKingOfVa360]

Give me the 3 time MVP. Moses peak blows Dirks out the water plus he matches his longevity

[mysticbb]

Moses
22/14/1.6 on .48%

Dirk
25/10/.9 on .46%

Since when is 25.9 ppg rounded down to 25? And using FG% in that case is misleading, because of the 3pt%. Nowitzki has 49.3 eFG% while Malone during his best years has 48.1 eFG%. The TS% is also a better tool to get a grasp on the scoring efficiency.

Dirk well undoubtably stay as the better PS scorer of the two while Moses is of course the better regular season scorer is at 25ppg for his first 13 NBA seasons

Malone scored 23.3 ppg during his first 13 NBA seasons, not 25. Malone also played at a higher pace during those years, which increased his touches. Obviously he went down in the playoffs despite playing more minutes, while Nowitzki went up. Nowitzki's scoring efficiency stays the same in the playoffs, Malone gets worse.

Moses is unquestionably a better rebounder then Dirk PS and RS

No, he isn't. Malone is just put into a different situation on the offensive end, which led to more opportunities to get offensive rebounds. The DRB% in the RS shows Malone as better, but that changes in the postseason. Now, what do you think is a better indicator of rebounding strength? Beating up weaker opponents in terms of rebounding or being better against better opponents?
Offensive rebounding is based much more on the offensive position than on skills, unless you believe that someone can rebound under the own basket while being incapable of doing it under the opponents basket. Makes no sense to assume such thing. A PF having a more perimeter oriented game will not have as many chances to grab an offensive rebounds than a C who only stays under the opponents basket. That one should be easy to understand. Well, and due to that the offensive rebounding numbers aren't telling you much about the ability of a player to rebound. Let alone that offensive rebounding does not show any kind of positive impact on the overall team success in average.

I don't understand your use of percentages, those that are in favor of Malone come with negativity from you

Because the numbers have to put into context. Nowitzki as center has a higher BLK% than Moses Malone, just that Nowitzki didn't play that much center. Also, Nowitzki in the post is rather defending the position, while Moses Malone rather tried to challenge the shot. The former is the better way to defend. And given the latter Malone's BLK% is rather low.

Dirk has never been called a good defender while Moses has, its not unthinkable that he would block more shots

If someone called Moses Malone a good defender, he rather didn't see him play or didn't understand the implications on defense Malone's playing style had.

he took a very Lebron Cavs Rockets team to the Finals against Bird Celtics

The Rockets run to finals was rather lucky. They played really weak teams and had the luck that their opponents missed more free throws than usually in important games. The Lakers went 22 of 35 from the line in game 3, while the Rockets went 21-22. If both are shooting their free throws normally, the Lakers go 25-35 and the Rockets 17-22, that makes a 7 point swing in a 3pt game. The Rockets should have been out in the first round without the luck at the free throw line. Then they play the Spurs, a team similar to the 2011 Rockets in terms of strength in the next round, then they go on playing the Kings in the WCF, a team as weak as the 2011 Suns. That was really just luck, because the better 1981 Suns lost game 7 at home to those Kings. And then in the finals, despite their two wins, the have in average a -9.8 scoring margin. They basically went lucky twice, which is within the normal variance, in order to not get swept.
The Rockets made the finals 1981, because of circumstances, not because they were such an incredible strong team due to Moses Malone's playing level.

then had one of the best PS runs with Philly, imo having a better performance then Dirk

No, Malone did not have a better performance level than Nowitzki. Heck, Nowitzki's performance level in 2006 was higher than anything Moses Malone ever did in the playoffs. Malone just happened to play in a faster era, making his raw boxscore numbers looking more impressive. For example, the 1983 76ers had 97.2 pace, the 2006 Mavericks 88.9, the 2011 Mavericks 86.9.

And it is pretty telling that you completely ignore the fact that Nowitzki is clearly superior in terms of ball handling and passing. Keep in mind, Moses Malone went to a team which went to the finals the season before. That team was more depended on Julius Erving than on Malone, when we look at the performance level of the team in games without those respective players.

[DC2]

Give me Moses but Dirk will be higher on all time lists because of his ethnicity.

[kasino]

I just wrote the numbers I did no rounding but if I did it would be 26 sir

Dirk goes from .47% to .46% he too gets worst but no Moses plays less minutes then Dirk

Malone is more of a bruiser able to withstand fitting for rebounds, Dirk isn't in case of ORB
Malone averages more DRB then Dirk as well
if your saying Malone could have more DRB since these percentages are what you got of what was available, I agree
for the PS Dirk got 8.7 of 35
while Moses got 8.4 of 35
Moses added 5.5 offensive rebounds to Dirks 2.6
I don't understand how offensive rebounds are overlooked by you, yes Dirk is perimeter orientated and reasoning for not getting extra positions for his team as Moses did
overall Moses undoubtably is a better rebounder

please post the numbers of Dirk at center, I would like to know how you got them because Moses did play forward and would love to see if his totals increase
a bigger body against players that would typically be his height or shorter, I think he possibly improved
yet overall Moses is the better shot blocker

now thats just crazy he has always been considered a solid defender no one is saying elite but in comparison to DIrk a much better defender

no one is lucky for 4 rounds
if you want to say the Kings shouldn't have been there I understand but the Lakers and Spurs were two 50+ win teams in no way similar to 2011 Rockets
Gervin Spurs were offensively focused with a good frontline
of course they made it to the Finals because of Moses play, thats not even in question

unless your saying all players in the 80's(Magic/Bird) have inflated stats then that argument is of no use
that was the style of play and thats what the players did

Doc took a major step back in 83 he went from being a clear #1 to a clear #2
that team success was based on the MVP

[JordansBulls]

I'd take Dirk since I know he will stay with my franchise for a long time. Moses went from team to team.

[Chosen01]

I'd take Moses to build around.

[mysticbb]

I don't understand how offensive rebounds are overlooked by you, yes Dirk is perimeter orientated and reasoning for not getting extra positions for his team as Moses did

1. Offensive rebounding does not improve overall team success. It is more useful to send a big back on defense in order to limit easy scoring opportunities for the opponent.
2. It makes no sense to compare offensive rebounding numbers between two players with such a different offensive game. It makes no sense to assume that a player can outrebound someone under the own basket, while not being able to do the same under the other. If ORB% and DRB% contradict each other, it is far more likely that the one guy is ordered to crash the board while the other should go back on defense. Using in such a case ORB% to decide which player is a "better" rebounder is silly.

overall Moses undoubtably is a better rebounder

No, he isn't. Malone grabbed more offensive rebounds, given the circumstances that is something we should expect. That doesn't make him the better rebounder in terms of ability to grab the ball after a missed shot. Put Nowitzki under the basket in every possession and he grabs also much more offensive rebounds. But that makes no sense at all, because it is much more helpful to a team to have Nowitzki going out to the perimeter and back on defense.

please post the numbers of Dirk at center, I would like to know how you got them because Moses did play forward and would love to see if his totals increase

Nowitzki as C from 2003 to 2010 according to numbers by 82games.com: 2.8 BLK% and about 26 DRB%. In average including other minutes Nowitzki had 2.1 BLK% and 23.0 DRB%. Well, everyone who understands basketball should not be surprised that a 7ft player will grab more rebounds and will block more shots when playing C on defense rather than PF.
Moses Malone played such small fraction of his career as forward that there is not much difference to expect. Obviously, we expect an increase as C over PF as well.
Nowitzki, when playing center, exceeds Malone blocking numbers and defensive rebounding numbers.

now thats just crazy he has always been considered a solid defender no one is saying elite but in comparison to DIrk a much better defender

By whom? Seriously, that is just the typical stereotype, people who referred to Nowitzki as being soft and a bad defender. Neither of that is true.

The rest of your post is so completely wrong, that I don't want to take the time to desect that.

If you still think, that Moses Malone was superior to Nowitzki, well, so be it. In that case we just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Narigo]

Dirk easily for me

[SDChargers#1]

Dirk is the better scorer because of his efficiency, but Malone is a better defender, a much better rebounder, and his peak season when the 6ers won the title was incredible. I'll give him the edge.

Moses in the playoffs in '83...

26 / 16 on 59% TS, and his team went 12-1 in the playoffs. Epic (Julius Erving averaged 18/8/3 on 50% TS during the playoffs for those who think he wasn't even the best player on his team that year).

[ronnymac2]

I'd probably roll with Dirk, but Moses gets underrated. His offensive value gets misunderstood.

[mysticbb]

I'd probably roll with Dirk, but Moses gets underrated. His offensive value gets misunderstood.

In this thread 7 people picked Moses Malone (Nowitzki has 6), 6 of them seem to think that this is an easy choice and some making statements like Malone would have had the far superior peak and had some sort of crazy longevity. Malone is constantly considered the better defender despite the fact that there is NOTHING (including watching them play!) which can back that up. Malone is considered the far superior rebounder, because people don't understand that a guy underneath the basket is more likely to grab an offensive rebound than someone playing on the perimeter while going back on defense. The defensive rebounding numbers are not showing any kind of advantage for Moses Malone. The only thing we see in the regular season is that Moses Malone as center on defense gets more defensive rebounds than Nowitzki as PF. Well, if someone actually know where the ball goes most of the time, that is hardly surprising. When Nowitzki played C he had a clearly higher DRB% than when he played PF too.

As it seems Malone is still overrated. The reason seems to be that most people are judging players solely on raw boxscore numbers like PPG and RPG. How they come up with the idea that Moses Malone was the better defender is really interesting, because the only explanation I have is that they still think Nowitzki would be some sort of bad defender.

Moses Malone is like Kevin Love without the jumper. Someone who produces impressive boxscore numbers while not having such a high overall impact.

Btw, for that guy posting Erving's boxscore stats: Erving was busy covering up defensive lapses also by Malone during that championship run. He was the defensive anchor of that team, while Moses Malone was allowed to crash the offensive board. Erving was blocking more shots in less minutes than the supposed to be great defender Moses Malone. But well, I doubt that people are aware of that ...