Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall?

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Re: Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall? 

Post#101 » by ManualRam » Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:57 am

CablexDeadpool wrote:
15shuttle wrote:There is unbelievable amount of dumb in this thread. One guy is saying Beal is better because he performed well in the tournament and Lamb wasn't good in tournaments? How about 2011, where he shot 58 percent from the field and over 60 % from three over the course of six games.

If people really think he is a bad shooter they will be shocked once he starts playing in the NBA. Uconn had one of the worst half court offenses I have ever seen this year and got zoned every game and all their guards did all game was jack up contested 3's. That hurts your percentages...

And for the people who think that Lamb can't create his own shot, I don't even know how to respond other than to wonder if you have watched him play.

I really don't know why he dropped to be honest, this was one of the few times RealGM was smarter than GM's with the majority having Lamb the 1B shooting guard at worst.


Have you seen him play in half court, he is Harrison Barnes bad at getting cut off.


no he isnt
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Re: Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall? 

Post#102 » by DMVleGeND » Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:13 am

I agree with Cablex on Lamb's handle being overrated. His average handle is why I think he was poor at getting into the lane in college. And he doesn't very quick/shifty with the ball. He'll benefit from the extra spacing in the NBA though.
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Re: Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall? 

Post#103 » by CablexDeadpool » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:12 am

ManualRam wrote:
CablexDeadpool wrote:
15shuttle wrote:There is unbelievable amount of dumb in this thread. One guy is saying Beal is better because he performed well in the tournament and Lamb wasn't good in tournaments? How about 2011, where he shot 58 percent from the field and over 60 % from three over the course of six games.

If people really think he is a bad shooter they will be shocked once he starts playing in the NBA. Uconn had one of the worst half court offenses I have ever seen this year and got zoned every game and all their guards did all game was jack up contested 3's. That hurts your percentages...

And for the people who think that Lamb can't create his own shot, I don't even know how to respond other than to wonder if you have watched him play.

I really don't know why he dropped to be honest, this was one of the few times RealGM was smarter than GM's with the majority having Lamb the 1B shooting guard at worst.


Have you seen him play in half court, he is Harrison Barnes bad at getting cut off.


no he isnt


Yes he is. On top of that he can only pull up going left.

He can't dribble under pressure, he gets cut off, he picks up the ball or he is throwing up a tough midrange Kobe-esque shot.

His handle isn't even average, it's subpar. It's horrendous. The boy can't dribble in a crowded area.

He can go to his spot...(as long as it isn't on the right side of the court) but all you gotta do is get up on him and he is gonna throw the ball up or he gonna completely stop in his tracks.

He's Harrison Barnes bad with his handle. And Harrison Barnes throws up bricks due to the fact he can't dribble.

Same with Jeremy Lamb.
ken6199 wrote:A Rocket's loss really brought out the best of people. It makes me realize this forum is filled with jobless scumbags with their only intention to come hate the team they hate and realize their anger from their life/job/wife/kids or whatever.


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Re: Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall? 

Post#104 » by CablexDeadpool » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:17 am

DMVleGeND wrote:I agree with Cablex on Lamb's handle being overrated. His average handle is why I think he was poor at getting into the lane in college. And he doesn't very quick/shifty with the ball. He'll benefit from the extra spacing in the NBA though.


His handle is fine in transition. But in the Half Court when trying to make a move or even come off curl, it has to be on the side of his strong hand or in the center of the free throw line.

So as a shot creating Shooting Guard, he is limited.

He pretty much is a Rip Hamilton. Creating his own shot, meaning, dribbling and breaking a player down, isn't his strong suit, creating shot for others won't happen because he can move on the half-court with the ball while being pressured.
ken6199 wrote:A Rocket's loss really brought out the best of people. It makes me realize this forum is filled with jobless scumbags with their only intention to come hate the team they hate and realize their anger from their life/job/wife/kids or whatever.


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Re: Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall? 

Post#105 » by ManualRam » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:13 am

CablexDeadpool wrote:
ManualRam wrote:
CablexDeadpool wrote:
Have you seen him play in half court, he is Harrison Barnes bad at getting cut off.


no he isnt


Yes he is. On top of that he can only pull up going left.

He can't dribble under pressure, he gets cut off, he picks up the ball or he is throwing up a tough midrange Kobe-esque shot.

His handle isn't even average, it's subpar. It's horrendous. The boy can't dribble in a crowded area.

He can go to his spot...(as long as it isn't on the right side of the court) but all you gotta do is get up on him and he is gonna throw the ball up or he gonna completely stop in his tracks.

He's Harrison Barnes bad with his handle. And Harrison Barnes throws up bricks due to the fact he can't dribble.

Same with Jeremy Lamb.


no he isnt. he's not nearly as stiff as barnes. he can cross left to right, right to left and has just enough hesitation in his dribble to provide deception and sell his move. barnes' problem with his handle is his stiff upperbody. he's very upright and doesnt get low enough to change directions and keep the ball out of harms way.
lamb doesnt have that problem because of his length. not only does he have the fluidity and coordination to handle but he can also cross over low, while covering a lot of ground with his changes of direction because of his tremendous length.

another problem that barnes has that lamb does is that barnes has a weak off hand, which is why his only effective shake move is an inside out dribble. lamb can use either hand equally well and in fact favors his off-hand.

he HAD to create his own shot a ton because of uconn's offense. neither napier nor boatright were setting people up, they couldnt play inside out, so a lot of their offense was iso (often times vs zones) from the perimeter. lamb still scored at a high rate because he COULD create his own shot, while doing all the other things that he does well offensively.

most right handers can only pull up going left. he can still get to his sweet spot and get to his right hand floater/push shot a la rose that he can shoot out FT line extended.

here's lamb and his full repertoire on display in one game including his improved handle. there's even a pull up going right in there for you. easily, the most complete offensive repertoire among the SGs drafted this yr.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLYaomTZs_U[/youtube]
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Re: Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall? 

Post#106 » by Rockmaninoff » Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:40 am

It's pretty simple:

1. Character concerns

2. Average grades for basic things like 2pt scoring and getting to the line

3. Weak physicality

That's not to say that Lamb isn't a skilled player and a decent prospect, it's just that NBA decision makers play the percentages and rank these guys based upon the relative strength of their future potential contributions.

Personally, I would have selected him over guys like Waiters, Ross, Barnes, and Rivers. Probably over Robinson and Leonard as well.
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Re: Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall? 

Post#107 » by CablexDeadpool » Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:42 pm

@ManualRam

Lamb scored at a high rate because he is a good transition player and finisher that and he was average at 3s.

Terrence Ross, Dion Waiters also scored at a high rates.

And he pretty much did what I described.

Top of the Key and playing on the side of the court that favored his strong hand.

And this is a more accurate description of his weak but effective ball handling to get where he wants to go, every time he stepped out of that or didn't shake someone with his weak crossover, he was cut off.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utC39w1Nxn0[/youtube]
ken6199 wrote:A Rocket's loss really brought out the best of people. It makes me realize this forum is filled with jobless scumbags with their only intention to come hate the team they hate and realize their anger from their life/job/wife/kids or whatever.


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Re: Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall? 

Post#108 » by ManualRam » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:59 pm

CablexDeadpool wrote:@ManualRam

Lamb scored at a high rate because he is a good transition player and finisher that and he was average at 3s.

Terrence Ross, Dion Waiters also scored at a high rates.

And he pretty much did what I described.

Top of the Key and playing on the side of the court that favored his strong hand.

And this is a more accurate description of his weak but effective ball handling to get where he wants to go, every time he stepped out of that or didn't shake someone with his weak crossover, he was cut off.


no, lamb scored at a high rate because he was a versatile enough scorer to be exceptional 3 pt line and down. yeah he was excellent in transition, but uconn wasnt enough of a running to team for that to be a significant part of his game. they were a slower paced half court team. he excelled in spot ups, cutting off the ball, coming off screens and shooting, the mid-range pull up/floater game. no other SG drafted this yr his offensive repertoire. he doesnt have to be reliant on catching and holding or isoing because he's versatile enough to pile up points without having to do so, but that is something he can do as well and that is what i think will seperate him from the rip hamilton's of the world (which btw in his prime was still a pretty damn good player).

and no that description and scouting report is a yr late. he didnt have to handle the ball as a freshman and he improved from 1 yr to the next.
if you were making the case after his freshman yr then i'd agree. not after his sophomore yr. unlike barnes, lamb actually did improve his handle. he HAS the fluidity, the ability to change directions, the ranginess with his dribbles, the ability to use either hand with a strong, preferred off hand. he's not waiters or rivers with his handle, but his handle is better than beal and ross'. beal has no wiggle in his game and ross can only dribble in straight lines.
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Re: Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall? 

Post#109 » by Brovva Blaqq » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:55 am

The discussion who is the better player is really senseless. Summerleague performance is irrelevant - let the boys play a couple of games in the NBA.
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Re: Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall? 

Post#110 » by GrangerDanger » Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:58 am

The stupidity in this thread is astounding. I'm going to spam a bunch of videos below me just so the idiots who claim Lamb can't create his own shot get a better understanding of his offensive game.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bSYjDkZvGM[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR7hIV1x8Lg[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9WGB1fL4rY[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tnktoIjtiU[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6Bxv03QyT8[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq5sEd7hsq8[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoQvHwue-sU&feature=plcp[/youtube]
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Re: Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall? 

Post#111 » by TheGoodDoctor » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:19 am

I was mad as hell that Colangelo passed on him (and Drummond) and I still am.

It never made any sense to me how the TOP scoring wing prospect in the lottery wasn't projected at least within the top 7. Cleveland really messed up on the SG they wanted to gamble on taking early in the draft. Lamb has all the skills and talent required to be successful in the league. It's ridiculous that teams passed on him.
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Re: Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall? 

Post#112 » by DCsOwn » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:24 pm

Not sure if this thread is dead or not, but I wanted to give my .02 cents on the Beal v Lamb subject.

I'm a HUGE Big East follower that watched around 12 UConn games during Lamb's tenure. I saw considerably less of Beal, maybe six games or so, but I've watched a number of his games dating back to his HS days and the all-star games that preceded his college career, so I feel like I have enough of a handle on his game to give nuanced critiques on the various aspects of his game.

Anyway, my first question to ManualRam is where is this foolishness about Lamb being a better athlete than Beal derived from? I didn't think that was the case before the combine just based on the viewings of the two I had, and their athletic metrics taken at the combine are virtually identical iirc. To my mind there is virtually no athletic area that Lamb holds an appreciable advantage over Beal, and I personally think that Beal has the quicker first step (although neither is Derrick Rose in that dept obviously), gets off of the ground more easily and has the better lateral agility between the two (although that advantage is slight and negated by the length advantage of Lamb.)

I personally predicted on the Wizards board that Beal would post very strong athletic numbers in Chicago because his style of game sorta masks his physical ability. He glides and is efficient but he's routinely just quick enough to get by a guy or jumps just high enough to get a rebound or block a shot. That's because he's actually a strong, underrated athlete and his objective metrics bear that out.

I also don't understand why people insist on comparing Beal's efficiency numbers from last season to Lamb or Ross. He's a full development year behind both of those two and that's actually HUGE at their respective ages. You said it yourself Manual that Lamb improved a significant portion of his game from his freshman season to his sophomore year, and that's the type of development that happens after an individual gains experience at a given level and has time to make adjustments to his game to increase his effectiveness at said level. Beal showed tremendous improvement IN season as a freshman, and once he acclimated himself to the college game had very strong SEC and NCAA tournaments.

If you're going to debate the merits of Beal/Lamb using statistical analysis, the fairest way to do it would be to compare them at comparable stages in their development and project them forward from that point.
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Re: Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall? 

Post#113 » by DCsOwn » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:58 pm

Not sure if this thread is dead or not, but I wanted to give my .02 cents on the Beal v Lamb subject.

I'm a HUGE Big East follower that watched around 12 UConn games during Lamb's tenure. I saw considerably less of Beal, maybe six games or so, but I've watched a number of his games dating back to his HS days and the all-star games that preceded his college career, so I feel like I have enough of a handle on his game to give nuanced critiques on the various aspects of his game.

Anyway, my first question to ManualRam is where is this foolishness about Lamb being a better athlete than Beal derived from? I didn't think that was the case before the combine just based on the viewings of the two I had, and their athletic metrics taken at the combine are virtually identical iirc. To my mind there is virtually no athletic area that Lamb holds an appreciable advantage over Beal, and I personally think that Beal has the quicker first step (although neither is Derrick Rose in that dept obviously), gets off of the ground more easily and has the better lateral agility between the two (although that advantage is slight and negated by the length advantage of Lamb.)

I personally predicted on the Wizards board that Beal would post very strong athletic numbers in Chicago because his style of game sorta masks his physical ability. He glides and is efficient but he's routinely just quick enough to get by a guy or jumps just high enough to get a rebound or block a shot. That's because he's actually a strong, underrated athlete and his objective metrics bear that out.

I also don't understand why people insist on comparing Beal's efficiency numbers from last season to Lamb or Ross. He's a full development year behind both of those two and that's actually HUGE at their respective ages. You said it yourself Manual that Lamb improved a significant portion of his game from his freshman season to his sophomore year, and that's the type of development that happens after an individual gains experience at a given level and has time to make adjustments to his game to increase his effectiveness at said level. Beal showed tremendous improvement IN season as a freshman, and once he acclimated himself to the college game had very strong SEC and NCAA tournaments.

If you're going to debate the merits of Beal/Lamb using statistical analysis, the fairest way to do it would be to compare them at comparable stages in their development and project them forward from that point.
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Re: Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall? 

Post#114 » by ManualRam » Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:32 pm

DCsOwn wrote:
Anyway, my first question to ManualRam is where is this foolishness about Lamb being a better athlete than Beal derived from? I didn't think that was the case before the combine just based on the viewings of the two I had, and their athletic metrics taken at the combine are virtually identical iirc. To my mind there is virtually no athletic area that Lamb holds an appreciable advantage over Beal, and I personally think that Beal has the quicker first step (although neither is Derrick Rose in that dept obviously), gets off of the ground more easily and has the better lateral agility between the two (although that advantage is slight and negated by the length advantage of Lamb.)


imo, lamb covers more ground more quickly than beal, both laterally and in straight lines. watching beal he doesnt look as fluid. he moves like he has heavy feet, planting hard to change direction, which is why he was beat off the dribble regularly when he was matched up vs guards (he mostly guarded forwards in college) and why he doesnt change directions quickly with the ball. just watch him change directions, watch his recovery speed, watch when he has the ball and tries to change direction. he has no wiggle in his game and moves fairly deliberately. to me, lamb is the rangier athlete (just look at how much ground he covers with each move), with better straight line speed and lighter feet which aid in his ability to change direction.
DCsOwn wrote:I personally predicted on the Wizards board that Beal would post very strong athletic numbers in Chicago because his style of game sorta masks his physical ability. He glides and is efficient but he's routinely just quick enough to get by a guy or jumps just high enough to get a rebound or block a shot. That's because he's actually a strong, underrated athlete and his objective metrics bear that out.

"just enough" when the player has average to below average size and explosiveness, isnt just enough. imo, a player like that has to have a physical quality that helps them compensate for that, otherwise he's another oj mayo. if the combine results were all that mattered when evaluating a player's athleticism, then you'd figure that jimmer would have enough athleticism to play his game at the NBA level or that mayo's athleticism would be enough to make up for his size at the 2. how they look in games matters and to me. beal looks like an average athlete with very little wiggle to his game and not enough explosiveness to be a factor in 1 on 1 situations or when finishing at the rim. even if you were to argue that beal and lamb were equal athletes (which i don't agree with) lamb would still have those extra inches of range and reach.

DCsOwn wrote:I also don't understand why people insist on comparing Beal's efficiency numbers from last season to Lamb or Ross. He's a full development year behind both of those two and that's actually HUGE at their respective ages. You said it yourself Manual that Lamb improved a significant portion of his game from his freshman season to his sophomore year, and that's the type of development that happens after an individual gains experience at a given level and has time to make adjustments to his game to increase his effectiveness at said level. Beal showed tremendous improvement IN season as a freshman, and once he acclimated himself to the college game had very strong SEC and NCAA tournaments.


you can go ahead and compare their freshmen yr's statistically. my skepticism when it comes to the upside of beal has more to do with his physical attributes. even if he becomes a better ball-handler will it be enough for him to be a factor 1 on 1? if he speeds up his shot release, will he be able gain enough separation to get a clean look on the move? will he somehow be able to become a more explosive athlete so he won't be as reliant on ball screens and will finish better in traffic? i have reservations about all that and i think those issues would still exist in a yr's time.

this is not to say that i think beal is gonna be a bad player. despite all the criticisms i have of him i still think he's gonna be a solid player because he's so smart and is fundamentally sound. i just don't think he's as good as lamb is now and i don't think he has the upside of lamb either.
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Re: Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall? 

Post#115 » by DCsOwn » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:45 am

^We disagree on the quality of athlete Beal is. I actually think your description of Beal applies to Lamb athletically sans the length comments, and one of the things I routinely saw watching Big East games was how easily people stayed in front of Lamb defensively. I didn't see much at all of the quickness you purport he has, and when he did get around players it had more to do with craftiness with the basketball than explosion. Lamb played a game against Georgetown in DC last season where multiple GU guards and forwards took turns guarding him and no one had an issue sticking him (Georgetown played some zone that game, but played a good amount of man.) Granted Georgetown has a very long group of forwards and guards, but even in games against other BE opposition, didn't explode to the rim or around his opposition with any regularity.

Lamb does have creativity with the ball that Beal lacks, but when I watched Beal he was a much more aggressive driver than Lamb, he was much more engaged defensively and stuck his nose in the paint and went for offensive and defensive rebounds and he was a much better, more creative and willing passer of the ball. He's also a more creative scorer than you give him credit for imo, and if he becomes the shooter most analysts predict and his late season surge suggest that he could be, I'd take him comfortably over Lamb going forward.

We'll see who's right down the line though I suppose.

Quality work by you in this thread defending your position btw.
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Re: Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall? 

Post#116 » by wackywabbit » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:59 am

He's Nick Young 2.0.

You can quote me on that. Nick Young isn't a bad player, and is a decent value around the 12th pick of a draft.
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Re: Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall? 

Post#117 » by TheGoodDoctor » Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:24 am

wackywabbit wrote:He's Nick Young 2.0.

You can quote me on that. Nick Young isn't a bad player, and is a decent value around the 12th pick of a draft.


I don't want to carry a quote like this around for a year but let me just say...no he will be better and you can feel free to quote me on that ;)
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Re: Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall? 

Post#118 » by Dr Positivity » Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:15 pm

Young would be a star if he had Lamb's footspeed
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Re: Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall? 

Post#119 » by Ruzious » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:44 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:Young would be a star if he had Lamb's footspeed

NY is every bit as athletic and long as Lamb - not to mention, he's stronger. NY has his moments when he looks like a star, but he's no better than good enough to lose with.
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Re: Can anyone explain Jeremy Lamb's fall? 

Post#120 » by Dr Positivity » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:28 pm

NY is too slow to get by his man and attack the basket. That's the main thing holding back his upside IMO

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