#18 Highest Peak of All Time (Dirk '11 wins)

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Re: #18 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#61 » by PTB Fan » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:45 pm

Don't know if I voted, let's make it official now.

Vote: '83 Moses Malone

"The Houston Rockets of the National Basketball Association Wednesday traded center Moses Malone to Philadelphia for seven-foot forward Caldwell Jones and a first round choice in the 1983 draft. The 76ers recently offered Malone a 13.2 million, six year contract to forego his free agent status.

The Rockets were then forced Philadelphia's offer or lose Malone, the NBA's Most Valuable Player in 1982. So, they traded him, thus acquiring a draft choice they hope to use to get either Ralph Simpson of Virginia or Pat Ewing of Georgetown.

The Cavaliers finished last among all NBA teams in 1982, and Houston general manager Ray Patterson says the "laws of averages suggests Cleveland will not finish very high." Malone is 28, Jones 32."


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=V6 ... lone&hl=en


"Moses Malone, no longer burdened with being the biggest scorer on the team, had 21 points and 17 rebounds and Andrew Toney bomb the nets for 33 points Friday night as Philadelphia '76ers beat New York Knicks 104-89 in the National Basketball Association season opener for both games.

"I don't have to score 30 or 36 points a game" said Malone, who was acquired in a trade with Houston Rockets and signed a six year, $13 million contract with the '76ers. "I can go to the boards, unlike Houston where I had two and three guys on me all the time."

Malone, who averaged more than 30 points as the most valuable player in the NBA last season, actually was the third leading scorer for Philadelphia. Julius Erving scored 22 points as the 76ers ruined the debut of new Knicks coach Hubie Brown.

"Other teams will have to be more worried about us, rather than us worried about them." Malone said."


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Ap ... lone&hl=en



"Moses Malone scored 25 points and had 15 rebounds and Julius Erving had 22 points last night as the Philadelphia 76ers, breaking the game open with 25-8 surge in the second quarter, beat the Indiana Pacers 121-106 in a National Basketball Association game.

The Pacers led by eight points early in the game and were still in front by seven, 37-30, before Franklin Edwards started a string of 10 straight points by Philadelphia. Indiana managed to tie the game for the final time at 41-41 with five minutes to go before half time but Erving put Philadelphia ahead to stay.

The 76ers outscored the Pacers 14-4 in the next four minutes for a 55-45 lead. Philadelphia led 57-49 at the intermission, and the Pacers came no closer than seven points in the third quarter. The 76ers streched the lead to 14 points going in the final quarter, 86-72, and Indiana came no closer than 10 points the rest of the game."



http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Kv ... lone&hl=en






Moses Frees Erving "To Roam The Court"

"Moses Malone leads the Philadelphia 76ers in scoring and rebounding, but his biggest contribution to the team might be the freedom he gives Julius Erving to roam.

Erving was especially appreciative of the 6-foot-10 center's presence in Philadelphia's 116-108 victory over the Suns last night in Phoenix. The 76ers' small forward scored 34 points, complementing the outside play of guard Andrew Toney and the inside work of Malone.

Toney, who hit 15-of-17 free throws, led all scorers with 34 points and Malone added 19 points and 17 rebounds.

"Even though I'm technically a small forward, you know 6-foot-6, 206 pounds, I basically play in the low post and over the last four or five years, I've earned a living in the post" Erving said. "He (Malone) has sort of given me freedom to roam the court more and not to make requirement to be under the basket all night in order for the team to play up to its potential."

Phoenix coach John MacLeod felt his team played below its potential, especially while committing seven turnovers in the last six minutes. The Suns turnovers helped Philadelphia scored five straight points for a comfortable 107-100 lead.

Larry Nance led the Suns with 21 (?) points followed by Maurice Lucas with 22 points and 12 rebounds
."


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=xi ... lone&hl=en


"Moses Malone scored a season high 33 points and grabbed 18 rebounds as the Philadelphia 76ers overwhelmed the Boston Celtics 122-105 Tuesday night.

The Celtics were behind by 21 points with 7:33 left, but a rally led by Kevin McHale, Gerald Henderson and Danny Ainge, who scored eight points in four minutes, cut the Sixers lead to 110-100 with 3:32 remaining.

The 76ers stopped Boston's rally on a field goal by Malone with 3:07 left and on a jumper from the left side by Maurice Cheeks with 2:40 to play."


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=0E ... lone&hl=en



"Moses Malone and Julius Erving combined for 61 points as the Philadelphia 76ers blew out the Seattle Supersonics 130-117 last night and extended the National Basketball Association's longest winning streak of the season to 14 games.

The 6-foot-10 Malone scored 34 points and Erving 27, although neither played much of the final period. Malone bettered his season high of 33 points by one point. Andrew Toney added 19 for the Sixers."


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1g ... lone&hl=en


This One May Be For the Books

With Julius Erving and Moses Malone starring, the 76ers are writing a new kind of Philadelphia story

"Julius Winfield Erving II stepped out into the sunlight from his car, removed his wire-rim glasses and squinted for a moment, letting his eyes—he has recently become slightly nearsighted—adjust to the glare. Looking down, he took the hand of Julius Winfield Erving III, and they headed toward the loading docks, where meat and produce were being carried onto dozens of heavy trucks that were standing shoulder to shoulder. Dr. J, a few days away from his 33rd birthday, and 8-year-old J had nearly reached the door of Norm and Lou's Restaurant when a big rig rumbled by and bleated noisily at them with its air horn. As the truck slowly rolled off toward Pattison Ave. in South Philadelphia, the driver hit his horn again and leaned out the window. "This is your year, Doc," he yelled, nearly squashing a Toyota as he did so. "Don't disappoint us again. This year the Sixers go all the way." He didn't say, "...or else," but he might as well have.

The playoff woes that have befallen the 76ers in recent years are a frequent topic of sour discussion in Philadelphia, and as Erving sipped a cherry Coke in the diner he asked, "Why is it that with us people always dwell on the past? That's where the interest genuinely is with our team, in talking about our past [failures] instead of what we've accomplished. We've taken so much crap that's unwarranted."

It's nevertheless true that three times in the past six years—1977, 1980 and 1982—Philadelphia has made it to the NBA's championship series only to be beaten in six games each time. The Sixers' regular-season record since 1977-78 has been the best in the league (327-136), and yet year after year the big prize has eluded them. "Somewhere along the line something always broke down," says Los Angeles Coach Pat Riley, whose Lakers handed the Sixers their most recent disappointment in the championship finals.

By last week, however, the question wasn't whether the 76ers were past tense but whether they would be future perfect. By defeating Denver by 21 points, Houston by 29 and New York by 15—in the process holding the Nuggets and Knicks each to just 38 points in the first half—Philadelphia ran its record through Sunday to 46-7, far and away the best in the league this season, and one that puts them on a collision course with history. No NBA team has ever won 70 games during the regular season, and the 76ers have an excellent shot at doing just that. The best regular-season record was achieved by the 1971-72 Lakers (who were also 46-7 after 53 games). They won 33 in a row and finished 69-13, surpassing the previous best record, 68-13, of the 1966-67 Sixers. Both teams went on to win championships.

Although these 76ers would have to play at a seemingly torrid .828 pace in their remaining 29 games to finish with 70 victories, that would actually represent a slight decline from Philly's present .868 clip. In the unlikely event that the Sixers collapse and become just another .500 team for the rest of the season, they would still finish with 60 wins, two more than they had last year. Moreover, the Sixers have an almost unheard-of 22-5 road record, including an astounding 11-1 against Western Conference teams. They've beaten the champion Lakers twice and have yet to lose two straight games; no team has ever gone through an entire season without losing two in a row. And the Celtics, in other years the 76ers' chief tormentors in the Atlantic Division, lay seven games back, a diminishing speck in Philadelphia's wake.

Surely the 76ers would not be so dominant this season had they not beaten Boston for the Eastern Conference championship in '82, after blowing a 3-1 lead in that series. Philly lost Game 5 at Boston and was embarrassed in the second half of Game 6 at home, where they were roundly booed. "I think the seventh game in Boston [which the 76ers won 120-106] helped us," reserve Guard Clint Richardson says in colossal understatement. "After the sixth, practically everybody had given up on us, and we had nowhere to go but to each other. It was a bad feeling and it hurt us, but it made the guys who were involved in that situation a lot closer."

In the championship series against Los Angeles, it was readily evident that although brotherhood is a virtue, a big man who can rebound is even better. Sixers owner Harold Katz decided to go after Houston's league MVP center, Moses Malone, who was a free agent, and when he got Malone for the tidy sum of $13.2 million for six years, the 76ers had the dominating center they'd lacked since Wilt Chamberlain was traded in 1968.

Malone, who led the league in rebounding last year (14.7 a game) and was second in scoring (31.1 points a game), quickly proved that he could also make the quick outlet pass necessary to trigger the Sixers' running game, get out and run on the break himself and close down the middle defensively with an occasional blocked shot. And, oh, how he can go to the boards. Last season Philadelphia's so-called Twin Towers combination of Darryl Dawkins and Caldwell Jones had a total of 232 offensive rebounds. This year Malone got his 232nd in Philadelphia's 40th game, on Jan. 23 in Milwaukee, and he leads the league in rebounding for the third consecutive season, with an average at week's end of 15.7 per game. "I've said all along that the big thing about him is his consistency," says Philly Coach Billy Cunningham. "He doesn't have any off nights." True enough. Malone has been limited to fewer than 10 rebounds only once this year; he had six in 28 minutes in the Sixers' 120-102 victory over Cleveland on Nov. 26.

"When you lose in the finals," Riley says, "it takes a tremendous toll. You lose a little bit of your basketball life. They had a lot of guys who had tasted nothing but the pain, and that's bad. Getting Moses was the best move they could have made. It rejuvenated them. They went out and said, 'With Moses, we're going to win it this year.' You can look at them and see they're more committed."

"When we got Moses our minds changed right away," says Guard Maurice Cheeks, who is having the finest season of an exemplary career as a playmaker, despite the fact that his assist average has dropped from 8.4 last season to 7.4 through Sunday. "Having him here was an important thing for us psychologically, just as important as what he brings us on the floor. Every time we walk on the court now, we think we're going to win."


As a practical matter, Malone's presence has enabled the Sixers to transform what had been a good running game into an exceptional one. "With Moses we anticipate we're going to get every rebound," Cheeks says. "So we start the break higher. And when we get a step on most teams, we're gone."

The instigator of all this, Malone, who came out of Petersburg (Va.) High in 1974 right into the ABA, has proved that if anyone is worth $2.2 million a year, it's he. He has averaged 37.5 minutes of playing time a game—he went 56 minutes in a double-overtime victory over Boston on Nov. 6—has massaged the boards and has been a timely scorer. When Cunningham has called on him to do so, Malone has also played power forward, giving new definition to that term while lending the Sixers a little versatility underneath. "It's never easy for Moses," says Moses. "Moses got to get out there every night and work hard."

Malone isn't interested in winning 70 games and then getting smoked in the playoffs. "All we got to do now is play ball and not let up," he says. "Can't take no prisoners. If we win the whole thing, that's a great team. I don't care nothing about breaking no records. Huh!"

One of Malone's greatest admirers is Irv Kosloff, who owned the team from the time of its transfer from Syracuse, in 1963, until 1976 and remains close to the 76er scene. "Moses reminds me a lot of Wilt when we won the title in 1967," Kosloff says. "Wilt hadn't won a title, and he worked hard for it. Moses hasn't won one either, and he works so hard that he makes the other players feel guilty if they don't put out as much effort."

Not everyone was convinced that acquiring Malone was such a bright idea. "I think some of the players questioned some of what we did in the off-season," Cunningham says. "But by December we had developed a clear personality and our confidence started growing. I think beating some of the better teams helped convince them." Erving, for one, had adopted a "wait and see" attitude when veterans like Dawkins, Caldwell Jones, Lionel Hollins, Mike Bantom and Steve Mix (the Doc's road roommate) were either traded or not signed to make Malone's enormous contract feasible. The Sixers started the season with four less costly rookies, more than any other team in the league carried, and gambled that the lack of depth on the bench wouldn't hurt. It hasn't. Cunningham even went so far as to put 26-year-old rookie Marc Iavaroni at the starting power forward position, despite the fact that Iavaroni had been bounced from three pro camps after his graduation from Virginia in 1978. He had spent the past four seasons playing in Italy and serving as Virginia's graduate assistant coach, which earned him playing time against Ralph Sampson in scrimmages. When Cunningham gave Iavaroni a chance, he made the most of it, diligently screening the opposition's rebounding forward off the boards so Malone could work in comparative peace.

Iavaroni did have some adjustments to make, most of them mental. On a trip to Atlanta, for instance, Cunningham told the players that the day-of-the-game shootaround would be 10 to 11. Iavaroni showed up at 10 minutes till 11 o'clock.

Besides the youth movement, another concession to Malone's contract is that the 76ers now get around out of town in rental cars, where once they traveled on more costly buses. Iavaroni was charged with the care of Erving's bags one night in San Diego, and when the Doctor was detained by reporters after the game, he instructed Iavaroni to "leave my luggage with the bellman." But instead of driving directly to Los Angeles, which was the Sixers' next stop, Iavaroni drove his car back to the San Diego hotel the team had already checked out of and gave Erving's luggage to the bellman there. The bags were eventually sent to L.A.

Obviously, the Sixers could not depend on Iavaroni to carry all the heavy load at forward, so last week they moved a step closer to the championship by filling one roster vacancy with veteran Forward Reggie Johnson, a 6'9", 205-pounder whom they purchased from Kansas City for a reported $150,000, and by trading rookie Forward Russ Schoene (and a No. 1 draft pick this year and a No. 2 in '84) to Indiana for backup Center Clemon Johnson (and a No. 3 pick in 1984). "I was ecstatic with the first part of the season," Cunningham said following the deals, "but we wanted to make ourselves stronger." Katz was overjoyed to get the two players, although both could be free agents at the end of the season. "I know Billy doesn't like to hear this kind of talk," Katz said, "but I believe this is the best team we've ever had in Philly, maybe the best team ever."

Katz has another reason to be pleased. The Sixers are doing boffo business. Though they have been an artistic success since Erving's arrival in 1976, they've been a financial failure. Attendance in 1980-81 had fallen to 11,448 a game, and though it increased to 12,362 last season, the 76ers still lost money. So the team raised ticket prices—a hefty 45% on the average. Although one can still get a seat for $6 (up from $5), the top ticket went from $11 to $16 and, taking a cue from the Lakers, the Sixers moved press row from the sidelines to behind one basket and installed a VIP row at $50 a seat. Nonetheless, as a result of the Sixers' superlative record, attendance has soared 25%, to a league-leading average of 15,229 a game. What's more, ticket revenue has zoomed by 72%.

But success has added a new problem. "We're expected to win every night," Assistant General Manager John Nash says. "Some people say there are only a couple of teams that can provide us with competition, so why come out? But that's a marketing problem."

If the Sixers prove to be the best team ever, they will have earned it. "The aggressiveness we have is consistent every night," says substitute Forward Bobby Jones. "I've never seen a team that had it like this team does. Every night our opponents know what they're going to face for 48 minutes, and we don't let up."

"I think they're a great team, but I think they've been great," said Doug Moe, coach of the Nuggets, after their 116-95 trouncing by Philly last week. "I don't believe that because they haven't won a championship they're failures. I happen to think the regular season is more meaningful than the playoffs. Hell, anybody can get up for the playoffs, but the regular season is a grind. If they win 70, yeah, they're a great team."

Philadelphia probably would have been a better team this season even without the addition of Malone, if for no other reason than the emergence of third-year pro Andrew Toney, formerly just a spectacular shooter, as a complete player. Toney was a substitute most of his first two seasons in Philadelphia; he became a regular in the playoffs last spring when Hollins was injured and he's still starting. Through Sunday he was scoring 19.6 points a game, third on the team behind Malone (24.2) and Erving (22.6), while playing sound defense. He also has learned to hit the open man even when he has a shot he thinks he can make, which is virtually all the time. "He sees things out on the court that other players just don't see," says Erving, who has become something of a mentor to Toney. "Andrew has such strong wrists that he can throw the pass off the dribble, sideways, behind his head, any way. He came into the league with the shot, but Billy stayed on him and saw to it that Andrew was not a one-dimensional player."

Erving awaits the stretch run with keen interest. "I think we've proved we're a good team, potentially a great one," Erving says. "We're probably hungrier than the Lakers or the Celtics, and that helps. The last time I experienced a championship was in 1976 [with the ABA Nets], and seven seasons is a long drought. Moses hasn't won one ever. Bobby hasn't. Maurice. Andrew. We haven't had the ultimate success, and we've got guys this year who really want it.

"The pain that was suffered, the feeling of having backs turned on us, that's still with this team. But the positive side is carried with us, too. We have the scars, but we also have the glue. I don't feel incomplete or inadequate in any way because I haven't won an NBA championship. I don't lie awake nights and think about it. I know I've given my best to the public, and the rest is really out of my hands. I can accept that."

This year the Doc may not have to accept anything but a championship trophy. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy."


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm





"Moses Malone dropped in two free throws with 5 seconds left in overtime to lead the Philadelphia 76ers to a 104-101 National Basketball Association victory over the Milwaukee Bucks.

Milwaukee's Marques Johnson had tied the score at 93 on a 13-foot jump shot with 2:34 left in the fourth quarter, and neither team could muster another point in regulation. The win kept the 76ers atop the NBA's Atlantic Division with a 58-10 record. Philadelphia has now won eight of the last nine games, and 24 in a row at home, one short of a club record.

Milwaukee, in first place in the Central Division with a 45-25 record, saw a two game winning snapped.

Malone, who finished with a game high 25 points on his 28th birthday, was fouled intentionally by Bob Lanier before making the winning free throws. Milwaukee then inbounded the ball to Charlie Criss, who attempted a three point field goal but hit the backboard.

Field goals by Reggie Jackson and Maurice Cheeks gave Philadelphia a 102-97 lead with 58 seconds left in the overtime. Marques Johnson, who led the Bucks with 24 points, hit a three pointer to bring the Bucks within 102-100.

Andrew Toney added 21 and Cheeks 16 for the 76ers. The score was tied 18 times in regulation, including a 21-21 deadlock at the end of the first period. Philadelphia led 44-43 at the half and 74-71 after three quarters."


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=te ... lone&hl=en



"Moses Malone scored 26 points, including eight in the fourth quarter, as the Philadelphia 76ers held off Cleveland rally to beat the Cavaliers 96-84 in a National Basketball Association game Sunday night.

The victory kept alive the 76ers' chance to tie the NBA record for most victories in a season, 69, set in a 1971-72 season by the Lakers. To match the record, Philadelphia, 61-13, must win its remaining eight games.

The 76ers led 71-61 entering the final period. The Cavaliers, however, got eight points from Cliff Robinson to pull within six points three times in the quarter.

Cleveland twice blew chances to pull within four points -- once when Robinson missed a dunk with eight minutes left and again four minutes later when Bruce Flowers missed a jumper.

Philadelphia then scored the next six points, including four by Franklin Edwards, to clinch the victory. The 76ers', who led 51-39 at halftime, got 14 points from Maurice Cheeks. Bobby Jones added 13.

Fourteen of Malone's points came from the free throw line. Robinson scored 20 points for the Cavaliers, who have lost last 16 games with Philadelphia. Geoff Huston had 18 and Phil Hubbard added 16."


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=BK ... lone&hl=en




Game 1 ECSF:

"Moses Malone, who spent the past two weeks aching knees, returned to the line up Sunday and scored 38 points to lift the Philadelphia 76ers to a 112-102 victory over the New York Knicks in the opener of the their NBA Eastern Conference semifinal series.

The second game of the best of seven series will be played Wednesday night in Philadelphia.

Malone missed the final week of the regular season with tendinitis of the right knee and had to walk off practice floor last Thursday when his knee became inflamed. But he did not look hurt to the Knicks, shooting 15-21 from the field and pulling down 17 rebounds.

Malone scored 14 points in the second quarter to spark the 76ers to a 61-55 lead at halftime. Then, with Philadelphia clinging into a two point lead early in the third quarter, Malone scored two baskets in a row of 13 points that gave the Sixers a 79-64 lead with 5:25 left in the period and New York never got closer than nine in the final minute.
"


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Ef ... icks&hl=en




"In between, Moses Malone played 38 minutes of brilliant, hard basketball, more than any of his co-workers. He scored 38 points, matching his high for the season. He muscled 17 rebounds, had four assists, shot 15-23 from the field, 8-9 from the foul line and helped the 76ers to blow out the Knicks, 112-102 in the first game of their playoff showdown."


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Mx ... icks&hl=en



Game 2

"Moses Malone and Maurice Cheeks ignited a third quarter spurt that rallied Philadelphia from a 20 point deficit Wednesday night and led the 76ers to a 98-91 victory over the New York Knicks and 2-0 advantage in their NBA playoff series.

The best-of-seven Eastern Conference semifinal match up moves to New York for Games 3 and 4 Saturday and Sunday.

The 76ers trailed 59-41 at halftime and 63-43 early in the third quarter before holding the Knicks to one foul shot in a 22-1 spurt over 9:45 span to take a 65-64 lead. Malone scored eight of his game high 30 points in the rally and Cheeks, who finished with 24, added six points and two steals."



http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=vO ... icks&hl=en



"Center Moses Malone and guard Maurice Cheeks were the architects of the 76ers comeback. Malone scored 30 points, grabbed 17 rebounds, made four steals and blocked three shots while Cheeks collected 26 points, handed out six assists and made four steals."


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=dY ... icks&hl=en





Game 3


"A New York double team of Julius Erving set up a 14-foot, game winning basket Saturday by Philadelphia's Franklin Edwards, a little known guard back up guard on the 76ers team with four all-stars.

"It wasn't designed for me" said Edwards, whose basket with two seconds left gave the 76ers a 107-105 National Basketball Association victory over the Knicks and a 3-0 lead in their best of seven series. "We wanted to isolate Doc one on one. But when they went with to double team Doc, I got the ball and started to go to the basket. I felt time was running shortso I put the ball up. I thought it was a good shot.

"This is the biggest thrill of my life". Philadelphia needs one more victory to advance to the Eastern Conference finals against the winner of the Boston-Milwaukee series in which the Bucks lead, 2-0. Game 4 of the 76ers-Knick series will be here today.

Edwards said after he got the ball he also tried to find Moses Malone, but the Knicks' defense was sagging on him. Edwards shared the hero's mantle with Malone and Maurice Cheeks, who scored 28 and 24 respectively, and combined for Philadelphia's 16 before Edward's game winner."


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=aU ... icks&hl=en




Game 4


"It's over now, but if you listen closely, you probably still can hear the echo of Moses Malone's thunderclap bouncing off the buildings of Manhattan's West Side.

Malone, tearing through the desperate fourth quarter defense of the New York Knicks, destroyed them one on five yesterday, leading the injury riddled 76ers to a 105-102 and a 4-0 sweep of their NBA Eastern Conference semifinal playoff series.

He scored 29 points. He brought down 14 rebounds. But that doesn't tell the whole tale of the devastation the Sixers' center wrecked in front of 15,457 fans at Madison Squad Garden. In the fourth quarter, he was better than any numbers could indicate--certainly better than New York could encounter.

"Moses", the Knicks' Ernie Grunfeld said, almost whispering "is the difference in the Sixers."

New York Coach Hubbie Brown agreed.

"You must congratulate the winners, especially the awesome display of Moses Malone. He's such a disruptive force. I thought our centers played him as well as anyone could, but he was able to get shots off during total duress. I have never seen him hit that many shots before."

As for Malone, he viewed his performance stoically. "I figured the only way to help the team was to go to the defensive rebounds and get things going." Get things going? He not only got things going on the boards, he did it in just about every department.

"We wanted to give him the opportunity to be the dominant factor for us" said Julius Erving (18 points, seven rebounds, two blocked shots). "That didn't happen in the first half. Our ace in the hole is the man in the middle, and that's who we wanted to go to."


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=4H ... icks&hl=en


For the series, Moses Malone averaged 31.3 PPG, 15.5 RPG, 2 APG, 57.5% FG vs the Knickerbockers in a four game sweep where he was the dominant force behind Philly's success.


Big Mo and Little Mo Need One 'Mo

Moses Malone and Maurice Cheeks led the Philadelphia 76ers to a commanding 3-1 lead advantage in the NBA eastern finals


Not long after the Philadelphia 76ers' 104-96 victory over the Milwaukee Bucks in Game 3 of the NBA Eastern Conference finals last Saturday, Sixer Coach Billy Cunningham, owner Harold Katz and Assistant General Manager John Nash were dining at The Clock, a Milwaukee restaurant, when they had to suffer through an impromptu monologue from a Bucks fan who had spent too much time drowning his sorrows.

" Wilt Chamberlain would've eaten Moses Malone alive," the man began. "Mo wouldn't score a point against Wilt." Cunningham kept his cool, perhaps secure in the knowledge that even if Wilt were suited up for the Bucks and even if he did shut down Malone, he wouldn't have been able to handle Julius Erving, Andrew Toney, Maurice Cheeks, Bobby Jones and the rest of this marvelous team.

Such is the overall beauty of the 76ers that the Bucks could win but one of the series' first four games, 100-94 last Sunday in Game 4, which prevented the Sixers from sweeping them as they had swept the New York Knicks in the conference semis. And these Bucks are no pushovers. In the Eastern semis they had given the broom to the Boston Celtics. "We were the ones making the big plays against Boston; now the Sixers are doing it to us," said Milwaukee Forward Junior Bridgeman after Game 3. "We have no excuses. We did what we wanted to do, but how can you defend against every player or every play?"

You can't, which is the main reason why Philadelphia had won 50 of its first 57 regular-season games en route to a league-best 65-17 record. But despite, or perhaps because of, that success—and because the 76ers have failed so often in the past to win the league title—there has been exceedingly heavy pressure on this Philly team to win it all. "We're not going to win games by 20 points now like we did in the regular season. We don't expect to," said Cunningham before Game 2. "In a way it's been nicer to win like this because each of our playoff wins has been different, and we've always been able to do whatever's necessary."

The man who perhaps feels it is most necessary to win this year's playoffs is Cunningham, who, despite a 395-173 career record in his six seasons, hasn't seemed to glean any real joy from his work. "There's been a lot of pressure on him," Guard Clint Richardson says. "You would think it would be fun coaching this team, but in a way it's not, because we have to win the title sometime.

"All along people have said that you really don't have to coach this team. But a very talented bunch like this can be poison if it's not coached, because everyone would just go off in his own direction and the team would get messed up. Cunningham hasn't gotten his due yet, but since his early years he's gotten much better. The big thing is he has more confidence in us; he'll stay with us a little longer. Before he lacked patience."

That patience was evident during Game 3. Rookie Forward Marc Iavaroni was yanked by Cunningham with 5:59 remaining in the third quarter after two consecutive turnovers leading to two Milwaukee scores. "The way Marc was playing then, I didn't think we'd see him the rest of the playoffs," one Sixer said later. Yet in less than five minutes Cunningham returned Iavaroni to the floor.

Such confidence-building moves have no doubt been helpful, but one shouldn't forget that the Sixers' march through the playoffs was preordained by Moses. As the Sixers trained for their opening round against New York, Cunningham asked Malone how he saw the upcoming playoffs. Malone rumbled, "Fo', fo' and fo'," as in three four-game sweeps on the way to Philadelphia's first title since 1967, when Cunningham was the sixth man and Chamberlain was The Man. But ever since Katz plucked Malone from Houston last September and gave him $13.2 million over six years, he has been The Man. A two-time MVP who has led the league in rebounding the past three years, Malone ended the power shortage that had caused the Sixers to fizzle out in the 1980 and '82 NBA finals against the Lakers.

This season Malone quickly defused criticism that he couldn't play the Sixers' running game. "It's Julius' team; I'm just here to work hard," he said before play began. But it soon became apparent that Malone was Philly's most important player. Indeed, when Malone sat out the last four regular-season games with tendinitis of the right knee, the Sixers won only one of them.

Then, during the Sixers' week off before the start of postseason play, Malone developed an inflamed left knee, causing much trepidation. But he exploded for 38 points and 17 rebounds in the opener against the Knicks and, apart from the first game against the Bucks—when Bob Lanier and a sagging Buck defense held Malone to 14 points—he has been a force that no one has been able to deal with.

t was largely because of Malone's presence that Milwaukee Coach Don Nelson said early last week, "The way I look at it, if we were better than them, we'd have won 65 games and we would have the home-court advantage."

Milwaukee's offense all year had been generated by the dazzling duo of Guard/Forward Sidney Moncrief and Forward Marques Johnson. In Game 1 in Philadelphia, Johnson had 30 points, getting 12 of them consecutively at the end of the first half to help cut a 16-point Philly lead to two. It took a spectacular steal by Bobby Jones of an inbounds pass and his blind pass to Richardson, who dunked for his sixth point in overtime, to clinch Philly's 111-109 victory.

Despite the loss, the Bucks had reason to be pleased going into Game 2. They had controlled Malone and come close to winning despite a seven-point performance by Moncrief. Milwaukee committed 25 turnovers in the opener, but before Game 2 Nelson said he had taken care of that problem, too. "I told all my players at practice today that I have a size 14 shoe and that I will plant it up their you-know-wheres if they don't take care of the ball better," Nelson said. "Of course, some of their rears are so big that my foot might disappear."

Instead, it was the Milwaukee offense that disappeared—just when it had in Game 1—during the final few minutes of Philadelphia's 87-81 victory. And again Jones made the key defensive play, blocking a layup attempt by Brian Winters that resulted in an Erving slam that effectively iced the game.

"They've tried to slow the game down, tried to bully us. I don't know what else they can do, but they have to do something, don't they?" Richardson asked after the second Philly win. Indeed, a victory in Game 3 would be crucial to Milwaukee. No team in NBA history has ever come back from a 3-0 deficit to win a best-of-seven series.

Clearly Erving, who had scored just six points in Game 2 and two points in the second half of Game 1—following a 17-point first half—was due to break out as the series shifted to Milwaukee. To be sure, he had missed one practice with a sore left knee. Said Marques Johnson, "He has to be hurting. He's not playing like he usually does on offense. When he's at his best he just explodes on you."

It was Milwaukee that did the exploding in Game 3. Bridgeman, who had been made a starter in Game 2 to get some scoring going, but shot a ghastly 1 for 12, got 16 points in the first half as Milwaukee took a 48-45 lead.

The lead had reached seven, 78-71, with 9:57 to play in the game, when Cunningham leaped off the bench and called time, presumably to berate the 76ers. Before he could begin, Cheeks, who was out of the game at the time, gave Cunningham a slap on the rear, as if to say, "Don't worry, things are going to be all right."

Cheeks helped by going in and scoring seven consecutive points to tie the game at 78 with 8:24 to play. Then Erving, who would finish with 26 points, took over, scoring 11 points in the last eight minutes to ensure victory and erase any doubts about his health.

But it was Cheeks—the most consistent Philadelphian during the postseason, according to Cunningham—who hadn't let the game slip away. As in years past, Little Mo has elevated his game during the playoffs. His 18.8-point average through Sunday was six higher than his regular-season pace.

"In the playoffs there's a tendency for people to do things they're not capable of," Cheeks says. "Doc and Moses can take over a game. I have to do it by getting a steal and trying to pick up the tempo a bit. You know, work for it."

Despite the Sixers' overwhelming talent. Cheeks still tries to leave nothing to chance. During last season's playoffs he kept a rubber band around his wrist—just as Chamberlain used to—because the Sixers were on a hot streak. This year the good luck charm is the trace of a beard growing beneath his chin, another Wilt trademark.

Hold on a mo', Little Mo. With Big Mo and you and the Doctor and Jones and...who needs Wilt?




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Re: #18 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#62 » by Dr Positivity » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:52 pm

ElGee wrote:I'm going to leave the Dirk stuff alone other than to ask anyone thinking about 11 Dirk the following:

-In April of 2011, were you thinking "holy ****, this Dirk guy is playing near an all-time level right now all of a sudden!?"

-How can you clearly distinguish 2011 Dirk as being better than 2006 Dirk when 06 Dirk was better defensively and on the boards? If you can't were you thinking 2006 Dirk was an all-time level peak??

I feel a lot like TrueLAFan when I read these threads these days. He liked to say you can't replace "being there." To me, that means "when we talk about basketball players, we're tapping into tens of thousands of data points that we watched unfold." As in, carefully watching a season play out means you know the coaching tendencies, health, lineup changes, roles of players, etc. Adding analysis ex-post-facto is fantastic --I do it constantly, obviously -- but it most be done in conjunction with that information. Sometimes, I feel that is lost on people or they simply never experienced these seasons/players regularly and are now relying too much on one single idea or factor.

I'm championing Jerry West here, who I never saw play live. But I would never look to his stats first and then try and rank him. I'd look to learn about the Lakers TEAM, the history of the team, the coaches, and anything and everything contemporaries observed from tendencies to quirks to patterns to strengths to weaknesses. THEN go to the stats, and try and make more sense of them with all the information available (ie adding ORtg/DRtg and SRS, in/out, etc.).


Even disregarding the fact that talking about non-statistical things like team make-up, lineup changes, roles, chemistry and eye witness reports is like the anti ElGee approach, I can forgive someone for taking a different approach - I don't see what that connects to the following information:

Which leads me to Karl Malone. If you compare Karl and Dirk as post players, guess who has more moves? Dirk. But Carmelo Anthony also has more faceup moves than LeBron...it's not the complete picture of a player. Malone isn't overstated as a scorer, he's radically understated. Consider some basic information about Karl Malone that is swept away because of Losing Bias, Clutch Obsessions and his consistency (which hurts him in a peak spotlight):

-Karl Malone has 2 of the top 19 scoring rates seasons of all time.
-Karl Malone is one of 10 members of the 30 per 75 club (30 pts per 75 pos for a season)
-Karl Malone is the ONLY player in NBA history to score 30+ per 75 at at least 8% better than league TS%. (+8.9%)
-Karl Malone's scoring barely changes whether Stockton plays, ages, or doesn't play

To boot, in 98 Malone had a slow start to the year...which was typical at the time.

Nov 1995 (14g) 24.6 pts 57.1% TS 8.8 FTA per 36
Nov 1996 (16g): 24.5 pts 61.1% TS 9.3 FTA per 36
First 18 1997: 25.6 pts 58.9% TS 7.9 FTA per 36
First 18 1998: 24.5 pts 58.3% TS 9.5 FTA per 36

In 1998, there's no John Stockton. The idea that Malone needed Stockton to score or that Malone, in any way, wasn't a great iso/one-on-one scorer is entirely unsubstantiated. Malone shows similar performance in

-the 4 games Stockton missed in 1990...Malone averaged 26.3 ppg, 59% TS 9.5 FTA's
-the 5th game against Por in 1992 that Stockton missed 60% of w injury...Malone finished with 38 points on 58% TS 6 FTA
-the Seattle series in 1996 Stockton played injured in ...Malone averaged 27 ppg 50% TS (5.1 apg to 2.7 tpg) 10.0 FTA's. In 4 RS games, he averaged 23.3 ppg 49% TS



Which is all statistical and unrelated to the "context" points brought up before, so if anything it's arguing the complete OPPOSITE of what that eloquent introduction imploring people to look at context based support did

To say that peak McHale -- someone who will come up in this project shortly -- is a better post player than Malone isn't a slight to Malone. McHale was a better post player than almost EVERYONE. Unfortunately, he couldn't pass like Malone and his face up shot was NOT as good as Malone (which is what made Malone such a filthy PnR option -- barrel to the basket like a bull or float to space and hit a mid-range shot), nor was his defense as good as Malone's during their offensive peaks.


I think almost everyone here would agree with you that Karl Malone's peak deserves to go ahead of McHale's.

1998 -- arguably Malone's peak as a polished offensive player -- coincides with Stockton's demise/limited minutes. In one of his greatest games, Stockton plays basically no role in his domination:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-E9rmJPh5U&NR=1[/youtube]

The games end with

-Malone doubled leads to breakdown, Carr layup.
-Next trip double Malone hits Carr for open J.
-Then Malone a scoop over Rodman.
-At 2:00 left hockey assist off Malone double for Carr J.
-Then the dagger jumper over Rodman, and Costas says “Malone personally pushing the series back to Utah.”



Stockton played 38 minutes and got 12 assists, so I don't see the evidence that Stockton played no role in his domination considering how Stockton/Malone reliant and on each other the Jazz offense always was. Here is Malone's 39 points. Not to mention that 1 G does not do much to disprove an entire career of Stockton and Malone clearly hooking up offensively on plays as much as any two players in the history of the NBA and running like literally a 100 thousand+ pick and rolls

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAIeuAx19lg[/youtube]

It's not a Nash-Amare relationship, Malone is creating many of the shots himself. However there is quite a few plays that start with Stockton

As for the Costas quote, was Malone on 39 pt night with big 4th quarter points not going to get an announcer raving? Has Stockton never got embellishment for 4th quarter exploits? (check the way this video starts):

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-E7lIoLI4s[/youtube]

So coming full circle, watching the years unfold with Malone is was clear how good he was when Stockton wasn't on the court. It WAS a debate whether peak Barkley (early 90s) was better than Malone (who peaked shortly after). It still is a great debate...but the biggest disappointment in this project is that people aren't willing to have these debates for whatever reason. Kareem slipped in without a lot of direct comparison, almost no KG-TD debate, almost no Kobe-Wade debate, and potentially Barkley before Malone is even being considered by people.


Are you really confident enough in your memory of the 90s to pick out the minutes played Malone was on the court without Stockton enough to say he didn't have a drop-off? Is "my eyes told me Malone didn't need Stockton" and the like 1.5% of Jazz games he didn't play in his career, really the type of evidence a statistically based person and champion of anti cognitive-bias like yourself normally supports? Also if Barkley is a "debate", what's wrong with Barkley winning that debate? Malone is going 2-4 spots after Barkley, tops, which is within the range of "narrowly won debate". Also, Barkley might be as much as 4-7 spots away from getting voted in (Dirk, West, Tmac, Nash, Paul, Moses, Ewing could all be stronger) so by the time his support gets strong, there could be plenty picking Karl over him, the people who are concentrating on the wings right now. Dirk vs Malone fits under the "voted in without a debate" umbrella more than Barkley vs Malone judging by this thread

Finally, I don't know if Malone needed Stockton is even THAT relevant. Bastillion as far as I can tell, was more concerned about a) The fact that Malone had a more power based/less finesse based offensive game than most super scorers, which can lead a player struggling against better defenses, and b) In addition to this, his postseason numbers having a drop-off. I don't have Karl Malone in my top 20 for a similar reason, I'm a fan of the idea that skill level tends to matter more in the playoffs than regular season, and Karl has a good but not legendary scoring skill level. I think the issue isn't as much "Stockton boosted Malone's ppg" as much as "Volume ppg can be misleading, period".
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Re: #18 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#63 » by colts18 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:17 pm

ElGee wrote:Doc, don't forget Nash played on a team where the center was "cheating" out of position. Amare's really a PF and they shifted Marion and Amare up, which gives them an offensive advantage at the expense of defense (with a net gain). In 2006 Phoenix tried to run a traditional center and Nash's on oRtg was just under 115. In NO, Paul's 08 on court was 116.

Now, it's obviously amazing he posted a 115 rating with that team. But until Paul gets to play with a PnR player like Amare and 2-3 shooters spaced across the court, I'm not sure it's a fair argument to bring up. Or, maybe put another way, is there something about Paul's game/past results that suggests he couldn't approximate Nash's results in the same setting? (Keep in mind I think Nash is a better offensive player, but Paul's making it ~ even with his better defense.)

But Nash is still the better offensive player without Amare and Marion. Look at 2011 for example. He had a 114.3 On court O rating and this was his lineup:

Nash
JRich/Carter
Hill/Hedo
Frye
Lopez

Thats better than every year of CP3's career except 08. In 2011, Nash missed 7 games and his team went 1-6 with a -2.16 SRS and 107.2 O rating in the games he missed. And this is an old Nash who turned 37 during that season.
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Re: #18 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#64 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:31 pm

ElGee wrote:Doc, don't forget Nash played on a team where the center was "cheating" out of position. Amare's really a PF and they shifted Marion and Amare up, which gives them an offensive advantage at the expense of defense (with a net gain). In 2006 Phoenix tried to run a traditional center and Nash's on oRtg was just under 115. In NO, Paul's 08 on court was 116.

Now, it's obviously amazing he posted a 115 rating with that team. But until Paul gets to play with a PnR player like Amare and 2-3 shooters spaced across the court, I'm not sure it's a fair argument to bring up. Or, maybe put another way, is there something about Paul's game/past results that suggests he couldn't approximate Nash's results in the same setting? (Keep in mind I think Nash is a better offensive player, but Paul's making it ~ even with his better defense.)


I think colts address this pretty well, but yours is a good point to make regardless. Obviously the move of Amare to center shifts weight of the overall strategy more to the offensive side.
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Re: #18 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#65 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:44 pm

C-izMe wrote:Sorry but this is flat out wrong. Whenever someone talks about the toughest competitors they bring up the same players: Garnett, Nash, Paul, Rose, Kobe. Most clearly see Paul as a great leader and I've really never heard him referred to as a follower.


I think it's interesting you say I'm flat out wrong on the basis of what you haven't heard, maybe do a Google?

From 2010:

[Chris Paul] is a follower, especially when it comes to LeBron James. Whenever those two are in the same place, you always see him running behind LeBron wherever he goes. [Paul] is a good kid but the bad thing is he’s a follower, following another follower. It’s like one blind person trying to lead another blind person across I-10. It won’t end well.


http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/20 ... ane-chris/

This isn't to say Paul hasn't had good off court impact in the right situation, but so does EVERY star. A truly great leader is someone who helps right the ship when you hit a bump in the road. Nash has done that like few in history, Paul instantly started looking for a new ship.
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Re: #18 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#66 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:51 pm

ardee wrote:-[b]Nash is the one who has blown the doors off all ceilings of team offense, which Paul hasn't proven he can do[/b], which means ceiling concerns are clearly more on Paul's side.


Nash vs Paul is definitely a very intriguing debate. I personally side with Nash as well, however, I think the sentence I underlined is not very fair.

The best offensive supporting cast Paul ever had was in 2008, when he was in his third season, and played with a decent All-Star in David West, one great shooter in Peja, and a couple of so-so ones in Morris Peterson and Janerro Pargo. No one besides Paul and West to some extent could create his own shot.

In 2007, Nash's peak imo, there was Amare and Marion who were better than anyone on the 2008 Hornets besides Paul himself, Barbosa who could play point if need be at any time, plus Bell (knockdown shooter), and Diaw (versatile post scorer), and another pure shooter in James Jones.

It's not as if Paul's 2012 Clipper team is overflowing with talent. Maybe this year, Odom will be better, Billups might prove to be Nash's Barbosa if things go well, Crawford is a decent perimeter option off the bench, and Blake of course might improve. So hopefully for Paul things will change in 2013.

But until then, I'm not sure how we can penalize Paul to that extent for leading the 2008 Hornets to an ORtg 2.4 points lower than Nash's 2007 Suns even though he had a vastly worse supporting cast.[/quote]

I'm talking about doubt. Until a player leads a truly great offense, there's some doubt he can do it. This doesn't mean he's worse, but all things being equal, you side with the guy you're more sure of.

You also have to remember though that Nash is the one with the much more established "best in game" track record for Offensive RAPM which is not at all the same thing as leading the best offenses. Whatever supporting cast Nash has had, a better supporting cast doesn't typically improve your RAPM.
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Re: #18 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#67 » by ElGee » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:23 am

Dr Positivity wrote:Even disregarding the fact that talking about non-statistical things like team make-up, lineup changes, roles, chemistry and eye witness reports is like the anti ElGee approach, I can forgive someone for taking a different approach - I don't see what that connects to the following information:


How on earth could you possibly think that "team make-up, lineup changes, roles, chemistry and eye witness reports is like the anti ElGee approach???" What would lead you to believe this? This is like thinking that Obama makes policy based on Fox News reports. :oops: I really don't know what to say to this -- I'm going to assume you didn't mean it as a slight, but it's originating from somewhere in you and that concerns me. It's especially concerning on the heels of a post in which I announce that part of the analytical process is the hundreds of games that I watch yearly and all the data surrounding those games that can't possible be jammed into a written piece.

Which is all statistical and unrelated to the "context" points brought up before, so if anything it's arguing the complete OPPOSITE of what that eloquent introduction imploring people to look at context based support did


Yes because it's a separate point. Is that not clear?

It's not a Nash-Amare relationship, Malone is creating many of the shots himself. However there is quite a few plays that start with Stockton


Well, that's the whole point is it not? To say "there is quite a few plays that start with Stockton" is grossly misleading. Everyone should watch that video -- NOT BECAUSE IT'S PROOF OF SOMETHING -- but because it's a piece of evidence that I'm suggesting is reflective of their relationship in the PS during Malone's best years. And that evidence is that while Malone isn't McHale or Hakeem as an isolation offensive force, the notion that he's heavily aided by anyone (specifically Stockton) is fragile at best. How much freaking iso scoring do you need in a game -- Stockton gets him 1 helped layup of his 39 points. That's way below what's typically measured out from guys that play with good PG's, LIKE Amare.

Are you really confident enough in your memory of the 90s to pick out the minutes played Malone was on the court without Stockton enough to say he didn't have a drop-off? Is "my eyes told me Malone didn't need Stockton" and the like 1.5% of Jazz games he didn't play in his career, really the type of evidence a statistically based person and champion of anti cognitive-bias like yourself normally supports?


No, but now we're back into that territory where I can't tell where you are coming from here. Are you trying to be antagonistic? What would lead YOU to believe that I think this is proof of anything? I never even said Malone wouldn't have a "drop off" (I assume you mean statistically) if he played with a weaker PG, so again I'm not sure where you are coming from other than to be argumentative.

Finally, I don't know if Malone needed Stockton is even THAT relevant. Bastillion as far as I can tell, was more concerned about a) The fact that Malone had a more power based/less finesse based offensive game than most super scorers, which can lead a player struggling against better defenses, and b) In addition to this, his postseason numbers having a drop-off. I don't have Karl Malone in my top 20 for a similar reason, I'm a fan of the idea that skill level tends to matter more in the playoffs than regular season, and Karl has a good but not legendary scoring skill level. I think the issue isn't as much "Stockton boosted Malone's ppg" as much as "Volume ppg can be misleading, period".


Here is what I responded to:

drza wrote:I'd love to bring Karl Malone into the discussion as well, as I tried to do a thread or two ago, but I'm still not in a position to do it myself and so far no one else has picked up the gauntlet except for ElGee briefly. Barkley at least generated some conversation last thread, but so far nothing on Karl Malone


bastillon wrote:Malone - also overrated to some extent by his raw boxscore stats. particularly because of his scoring. his ppg numbers REALLLYYYY overstated how good he was as a scorer. he had like couple reliable moves, his jumpshot was pretty good (though inconsistent at times) and he could draw tons of FTs and pass very well. but his 1 on 1 scoring skills were lacking and this is why he regressed so often in the playoffs (that + John Stockton taking a lesser role resulting in Malone carrying too much). his consistently lower playoff scoring averages and efficiency were somewhat similar to D-Rob. he's another guy whose scoring numbers overstated his abilities and that was exposed in the playoffs. IMO Kevin McHale was a better scorer in terms of abilities than Karl Malone, D-Rob OR Moses. I don't like fundamentally flawed players.


Bastillon says "his 1 on 1 scoring skills were lacking." Now, if you think of Malone as having the historical level stats I posted, then it seems my point reinforces bastillon's. I was assuming (falsely?) that the PS numbers were being referenced, or at least were part of the reference, since this is all I heard about re: Malone's scoring these days. (This is why I say he was actually understated.) I cited the RS numbers to give people context for the PS numbers -- I definitely should have been clearer there. Let me expound.

What I'm saying is that this is not a 25 ppg 55% TS guy taking a dip bc of this skillset down to 20/50% without any team changes. Instead, the RS numbers need to be remembered in interpreting what happened to Utah in the PS. This is a 27 ppg/58% guy changing to 27 ppg/53%...but there are also circumstantial changes to consider.

I've written about the change in role in the PS, largely IMO bc Stockton was incapable of certain things for the heart of Malone's career. The rest of the team's turnovers plummet http://www.backpicks.com/2012/02/29/was ... -pressure/ (an indication they are "doing" less), for example, as Malone does more. (I'd call it unipolar, but I have a lot of respect for the Jazz offensive sets.) As a result, we see Malone in more iso situations, absolutely.

With jordan, Shaq and Hakeem as the only other better statistical PS scorers of the period (or perhaps Reggie Miller?)...

I've written about this before... http://www.backpicks.com/2012/02/07/joh ... -failures/ Most players will drop no more than 1.5% in TS% more than we "expect" in the PS based on their opponent strength. Malone drops more than any other notable star since the merger, at 3.9%.

You know who else has an enormous drop? His teammate, Stockton (-3.4%). Chicken, meet egg. But if you believe that Stockton was helping Malone get better shots, only Stockton's own game limits the pressure he can put on a PS defense, then that shifts some of the role to Malone (which bastillon was saying). That we still see 27 ppg scoring and excellent offensive results (remember Malone was a fantastic passer) means it doesn't make much sense to say his scoring was "REALLLYYYY overstated."

The 94 Jazz had "second options" of Horny and Stock...but really Stock was a PG who wasn't going to take over the game scoring and he didn't have the same scoring threat we see today from guys like Paul or Nash (heck it wasn't close to the same as Penny.) Horny was a spacer/shooter, and a good one, and his arrival boosted the Jazz offense. So what you get is:

94 Malone 27 ppg 53% TS (Hornacek 15 ppg/59%, Stockton 14/52%)
95 Malone 30 ppg 55% TS (Hornacek 12/60%, Stockton 18/55%)
96 Malone 27 ppg 50% TS (Hornacek 18/65%, Stockton 12/60%)
97 Malone 26 ppg 50% TS (Hornacek 15/57%, Stockton 16/63%)
98 Malone 26 ppg 53% TS (Hornacek 11/53%, Stockton 11/57%)

Malone's A 27 ppg, 53% TSer who was carrying an enormous load. The Jazz postseason offenses in those years were:

Utah PS offenses
94 +4.5
95 +8.5
96 +6.7
97 +6.5
98 +0.1 (and that was +4.3 in the WC PS before the debacle in Chi)

So you're left with a scorer, who is the primary scorer, who is scoring at a rate that only the all-time best eclipse, and his team's ORtg changes correlate strongly (0.77 from 92-98) with his individual ORtg changes. Here are the players I consider to be better offensive post players and their PS numbers*:

Hakeem (93-95): 27/57%
Shaq (00-02): 30/56%
Kareem (77-80): 32/62%
Dirk (09-11): 27/62%
Barkley (89-93): 26/58%

And here's the crux of the point: If Malone could maintain his volume/efficiency (27/58%) despite the changes in what his teammates were doing in playoff series...he'd actually be raising his game significantly. Significantly! Heck, 27/56% would be raising his game a lot because that would simply be the "expected" TS% against those defenses. This is, in a statistical sense, what Hakeem did (and why he was voted in at No. 5). If Malone was doing this, he'd quite likely have multiple championship rings and we'd have voted him in a long time ago.

So I guess bastillon put me in an"overrated/underrated" subjective booth. If you think of Malone as a 30/60% guy, then that does really overstate him as an iso scorer. If you think of him as a 27/53% guy on a good team (or for some, a really good team), that understates him as a scorer. Who cares about the semantics here though, when the important point is that Malone is an excellent scorer who is just a cut below the all-timers.

*Malone 92-98 is 27/53% (103.9 opp DRtg). He's +1.6% aTS% gainst his opponent's, and when we incorporate how good of a passer he was, there just simply aren't any bigs left who are better offensively. Other bigs in their prime as PS scorers:

Duncan 23/55% v 103.7 DRtg teams
Moses 23/55% v 103.2 DRtg teams
Ewing 23/55% v 105.1 DRtg teams
Robinson 23/55% v 106.5 DRtg teams
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Re: #18 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#68 » by Dr Positivity » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:58 am

I don't mean to be antagonistic in just about any circumstance, for the record

The vast majority of your posts in the project have been stats based. That's all I meant by talking about say, eye witness reports as anti-ElGee. Like I said it's not even that relevant, I even support people using both statistical and contextual information to make votes, though some may accuse inconsistency
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Re: #18 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#69 » by ElGee » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:25 am

I've explicitly stated at least once the reason for that is it's providing information that people don't know. If I had the RAPM database secretly stashed away, I'd post those numbers too. I have no desire to break down film or games in detail or stat-track (have in the past) and have already posted articles to provide context in other projects...and there are two article posters in this project. I quite like fatal's stylistic breakdowns, sherkin doesn't do projects and ronnymac's posts on the matter are much missed...or else I'd engage with them on such matters, although they all have good eyes so there's little to add. Of course, I've introduced a lot of abstract theory in the project, the core of which is "statistical"...but not related to what anyone thinks of as basketball statistics. It's systemic analysis that, again, I believe people don't know (I never did -- couldn't find it anywhere online), which leads to conclusions like the importance of health, HCA, portability, etc.

Otherwise, in general, I feel like half my posts are trying to urge people to use ALL the information to inform their judgments, which means using a bevy of statistics in the proper context at all times (which includes coaching, lineup changes, health, roster continuity)...I feel like I talk about this constantly, which was why I was taken aback a bit.

Nonetheless, is my point clearer now about Malone? I'd like to hear your thoughts on him vs. Barkley at their best, and your take on Malone's defense.
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Re: #18 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#70 » by kaima » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:55 am

Another quick visual anecdote:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bsuLF0DqzU[/youtube]

With a frontline of Robinson/Duncan, Malone toys with the entire team in what was clearly the back-breaking game.

Also of note is that through the brunt of their primes (through, let's say, 1998) Malone and Olajuwon have highly similar production on FGAs in the playoffs. Basically, Malone's game wasn't as pretty and his TS% isn't nearly as impressive. but through that bruising style his production was roughly equal to Olajuwon's on FGA/PPG. It's certainly an interesting factor in possession/shot production that Malone was actually extremely good at volume scoring in the post-season.

Further, his defense is greatly underrated. Simply a great man to man defender at his peak, and even beyond that. There's the David Robinson beatdowns, yes, but he was still a defensive force by his last season. As a Lakers fan I was amazed by the turnaround against both Duncan and Garnett between 03-04 in the playoffs.

In the last four games of the Spurs series, Malone held Duncan to 17 ppg on 38% shooting. This from a guy who destroyed us the year before (and all Lakers fans know what a nightmare the PF spot was, like, forever).

And this was with a Karl Malone that was 40 years old, playing on one leg.

Malone is at the heart of championship obsession, with empty memes popping that both disparage and misrepresent his true skillset value. Anyway, that's my quick, cameo contribution on the Malone Saga (AKA Championship Passion Play).
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Re: #18 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#71 » by SDChargers#1 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:07 am

I feel like Moses being this low is already quite the feet. In 1983 he was utterly phenomenal.

25/15 during the regular season
26/16 during the playoffs

He led one of the greatest teams ever on one of the greatest playoff runs ever (Fo Fo Fo / 12-1). He absolutely decimated his competition that year (including Kareem in the Finals).

Vote: 1983 Moses
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Re: #18 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#72 » by C-izMe » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:15 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
C-izMe wrote:Sorry but this is flat out wrong. Whenever someone talks about the toughest competitors they bring up the same players: Garnett, Nash, Paul, Rose, Kobe. Most clearly see Paul as a great leader and I've really never heard him referred to as a follower.


I think it's interesting you say I'm flat out wrong on the basis of what you haven't heard, maybe do a Google?

From 2010:

[Chris Paul] is a follower, especially when it comes to LeBron James. Whenever those two are in the same place, you always see him running behind LeBron wherever he goes. [Paul] is a good kid but the bad thing is he’s a follower, following another follower. It’s like one blind person trying to lead another blind person across I-10. It won’t end well.


http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/20 ... ane-chris/

This isn't to say Paul hasn't had good off court impact in the right situation, but so does EVERY star. A truly great leader is someone who helps right the ship when you hit a bump in the road. Nash has done that like few in history, Paul instantly started looking for a new ship.

This article sounds a bit biased. He really makes the jump to thinking CP3 would be Lebron like in his departure but he really handled it well. Definetly handled it better than Melo, Bosh, Lebron, etc. His team is now in a hood sutures ruin to thrive and no one really holds it against him. A lot of this is him jumping out to conclusions on his the situation would play out but now that we know how it played out he handled it well.
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Re: #18 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#73 » by lorak » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:35 am

mysticbb wrote:
ElGee wrote:I'm going to leave the Dirk stuff alone other than to ask anyone thinking about 11 Dirk the following:

-In April of 2011, were you thinking "holy ****, this Dirk guy is playing near an all-time level right now all of a sudden!?"

-How can you clearly distinguish 2011 Dirk as being better than 2006 Dirk when 06 Dirk was better defensively and on the boards? If you can't were you thinking 2006 Dirk was an all-time level peak??


Doesn't your "losing bias, clutch obsession and consistency" argument you brought up for Karl Malone also apply for Nowitzki before 2011? Isn't it the case that Nowitzki was doubted and not seen as good, because of those things you mentioned are negatively affecting the opinion on Karl Malone?
See, that's what I call intellectual dishonest argumentation, when it fits your personal belief, we have to look at all those biases, but when it is not, you are actually encourage people to have those biases. It becomes really sad and the longer it goes, the more weird are your argumentations becoming.

ElGee wrote:I'm championing Jerry West here, who I never saw play live. But I would never look to his stats first and then try and rank him. I'd look to learn about the Lakers TEAM, the history of the team, the coaches, and anything and everything contemporaries observed from tendencies to quirks to patterns to strengths to weaknesses. THEN go to the stats, and try and make more sense of them with all the information available (ie adding ORtg/DRtg and SRS, in/out, etc.).


So, you are implying that you are the only one doing that? Can you imagine that others are doing that as well, just coming to a different conclusion?

ElGee wrote:Which leads me to Karl Malone. If you compare Karl and Dirk as post players, guess who has more moves? Dirk.


And against better teams, he is actually using those better skills to achieve better results. That's what Nowitzki is doing. You are impressed by Malone's regular season numbers, but guess what? In 1998 he had 24.73 GameScore per 75 possessions against below average teams, against above average teams it was 21.06. I think it is important to acknowledge such things. You are so adamant about making proper analyses, but when it comes to the player you like more than other people, you seem to forget about that really quickly. You are talking about championship odds and how the performance in the playoffs matters, but then you proceed to completely ignore the fact that someone like Karl Malone actually showed a big difference between his performance level against weaker and better teams. What is more important for a championship run? That someone is beating up on weak teams or that someone is actually performing well against better teams? What is more likely? That someone will face below average teams during a championship run or that someone is facing above average teams?

ElGee wrote:First 18 1998: 24.5 pts 58.3% TS 9.5 FTA per 36

In 1998, there's no John Stockton. The idea that Malone needed Stockton to score or that Malone, in any way, wasn't a great iso/one-on-one scorer is entirely unsubstantiated. Malone shows similar performance in


I love how the opponents are ignored in that example, also, how you completely left out the 64 games with Stockton as a reference.

Now, let us check that: The Jazz played 11 home games during those 18 games (well, Malone scored at a higher rate and with higher efficiency in home games throughout his career) and the Jazz faced opponents with an average SRS of -1.84 (and that is not even accounting for the Shaq-less Lakers they faced on opening day), making the SOS -2.19. Sounds like a pretty easy schedule to me. Overall the Jazz had 1.7 SRS during that stretch, while Malone scored 24.5 on 58.2 TS% per 36 min. For the remaining 64 games Malone scored 26.5 per 36 min on 60.1 TS% while the Jazz played a -0.42 SOS and overall like a 6.86 SRS team. Did Stockton really had no effect on Malone? Was Stockton really that low of an impact player? Or is that just a myth you want to spread?
Malone's scoring rate raises while his TS% goes up as well, the Jazz play 5.16 points better with Stockton than without him.

ElGee wrote:-the 4 games Stockton missed in 1990...Malone averaged 26.3 ppg, 59% TS 9.5 FTA's
-the 5th game against Por in 1992 that Stockton missed 60% of w injury...Malone finished with 38 points on 58% TS 6 FTA
-the Seattle series in 1996 Stockton played injured in ...Malone averaged 27 ppg 50% TS (5.1 apg to 2.7 tpg) 10.0 FTA's. In 4 RS games, he averaged 23.3 ppg 49% TS


You are so adamant about sample size and variance, but now 4 games or even part of one game is enough?


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Re: #18 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#74 » by lorak » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:48 am

kaima wrote:
Also of note is that through the brunt of their primes (through, let's say, 1998) Malone and Olajuwon have highly similar production on FGAs in the playoffs. Basically, Malone's game wasn't as pretty and his TS% isn't nearly as impressive. but through that bruising style his production was roughly equal to Olajuwon's on FGA/PPG. It's certainly an interesting factor in possession/shot production that Malone was actually extremely good at volume scoring in the post-season.



And Iverson was even better at volume scoring in the post season.

BTW, Malone's career playoffs WS/48: .140 with only two years above .200 (and carrer high .220). During regular season he had .200 as career average... That's bigger drop off than David Robinson's.
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Re: #18 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#75 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:09 am

C-izMe wrote:This article sounds a bit biased. He really makes the jump to thinking CP3 would be Lebron like in his departure but he really handled it well. Definetly handled it better than Melo, Bosh, Lebron, etc. His team is now in a hood sutures ruin to thrive and no one really holds it against him. A lot of this is him jumping out to conclusions on his the situation would play out but now that we know how it played out he handled it well.


Okay, so when I do provide an example of what you've never seen, you jump straight into defending your previous opinion. :-? Y'know I'm not promoting the guy who wrote this article, I'm just re-iterating stuff that was said about Paul not too long ago.

Your defense itself seems funny to me. You jump straight into saying "Well Paul wasn't as bad as these other guys who screwed their franchise" as if that would make him a great leader. But more glaringly:

You're not denying or discussing that Paul demanded a trade in 2010 only 1 season after signing a new contract. This fact was a HUGE deal to people, and it's like you never seemed noteworthy to you. Suffice to say, it was a far worse case of jumping ship than we saw from any of the other guys you mentioned, and beyond that it just made Paul look like an idiot for apparently signing a deal without putting any insight into how the team was going to be in years to come.

Now, with that said, none of that is really about Paul being a follower. Paul being influenced by LeBron seems pretty clear, but it's not like he's following LeBron around during the NBA season. I understand if you object to that characterization.
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Re: #18 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#76 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:21 am

Dr Positivity wrote:I don't mean to be antagonistic in just about any circumstance, for the record

The vast majority of your posts in the project have been stats based. That's all I meant by talking about say, eye witness reports as anti-ElGee. Like I said it's not even that relevant, I even support people using both statistical and contextual information to make votes, though some may accuse inconsistency


I think the thing to realize about ElGee is that he uses both logical and intuitive analysis with gusto. This can cause confusion because he criticizes others' use of both these things but obviously he's doing it himself. The mistake I think people make is that they tend to see hypocrisy when what they should be seeing is hubris. He's not saying others shouldn't be doing stuff, he just thinks they're doing it wrong.

Keep in mind as I say this though that I get called arrogant on here all the time, and I don't deny it. To my mind there are far worse things than being confident in your assessment of how you and others are coming to conclusions, and not being afraid to call it like you see it.

I do think there are times where ElGee's liberal sprinkling of distinct methods leads him into inconsistencies though and I'd say the same about myself. I think in the end, ironing out schema conflicts is a bit of a never ending job.
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Re: #18 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#77 » by drza » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:53 am

Re Dirk: I see no reason to not include Dirk heavily in this conversation based on a worry about a 2011 winning bias. As far back as 2002 I remember having "man, this guy is really good!" thoughts...I thought in 2003 that his injury may have been the difference between a Mavs title and a Spurs title...by 2006/07 I thought he was clearly one of the very few in the argument for best player in the then NBA, and those that I thought better have already been voted in...and by like 2009 I was on here calling Dirk the "Barkley" of this generation and comparing the two favorably. Around that time I was really getting into advanced stats, and in retrospect those confirmed that not only was Dirk as good as I thought, he may even have been better. So by the time 2011 came along it wasn't a shock to me that Dirk could go on a championship run. I wouldn't have picked that team for the title before probably the WCF, but Dirk's play wasn't in question to me before or after that. I think either/both of 2006 and 2011 Dirk should absolutely be getting run.

Re Malone: I ALSO don't see any reason that Karl Malone shouldn't be getting heavy run. Yes, his scoring efficiency went down in the post-season. The more in-depth we go in these multi-month projects, the more I feel like scoring efficiency has gotten overrated. Late 90s Malone was the only primary scoring option on that team, and in the postseason it is easier for opponents to key on individual performers and make their scoring less efficient. I could swear that this has been pointed out for several of the players already voted in. By then Karl also was playing a large role in the passing/offense creating game for teammates, so his offense was hardly a one-trick pony. Plus, Malone was definitely a plus defender. No, he wasn't an anchor. But his defense was enough of a strength that it should play a factor in how he's evaluated. All told, I think Karl is at worst on the street. I'm not at all sure that I have Barkley, for example, ahead of him.
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Re: #18 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#78 » by fatal9 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:04 am

This would me my assessment of Malone's scoring, I don't think "scoring without Stockton" is as much of an issue as other things...

- Amazing at getting the ball in traffic and either finishing or drawing fouls due to his strength. He had some of the best hands ever, doesn't matter who is throwing him the ball or what system he is in, he will always find a way to score off other players unless he plays on a team with literally zero ball movement.
- His ability to go to the right spots on the floor is a SKILL. The problem is, that sort of scoring can't be relied upon against a good set defense trying to make a stop. It's a good way to tack on the points when the defense lets up or makes mistakes however.
- In an iso situation, pretty much the only shot prime Malone was shooting was a 12-15 foot fallaway over a defender. He could mix it up over the course of a game, give you a little jump hook sometimes, face you up and drive, but 9 times out of 10, if you give him the ball and get out of his way, it's going to be that fallaway. I hate that shot, well not the shot itself but how many times he shot it. That sort of somewhat one dimensional iso-scoring is the reason he couldn't come through as a scorer in the playoffs at the rate you'd expect from someone with his averages. It's why when his jumper is on, he'll look unstoppable, shoot like 15/26 in one game but be 9/24 and 6/19 in the next two while taking the exact same shots. His consistency as an iso-scorer is just not where you'd like it to be.
- Stockton was responsible for a large number of late 80s/early 90s Malone's points. When people exagerrate and say Stockton spoon fed Malone, this is the version they are referring to. Malone became less and less dependent on Stockton as the years rolled by.
- As the 90s went on, his game progressed to being more finesse based (he could still make midrange shots when he was young, but didn't shoot them as often as later on), he also became a better one on one scorer (but again...I hate that fallaway) and with added experience he of course read defenses better and became a really good passer as well (over the shoulder no look pass being his trademark, great and hitting cutters and outlet passing).
- His conditioning was epic, he was probably the best forward ever at beating his man down the floor for an easy fastbreak basket. This again, is something teams can cut down when they adjust for it in the playoffs.
- PnR beast, in his younger days he attacked more off the PnR, in the MVP years he popped for the jumper.
- In general he got more easy baskets than any 25+ ppg guy I've consistently seen. Combination of playing with the best PG at delivering the ball, the offensive system Utah ran which creates lots of easy baskets off cuts and backscreens and to Malone's credit, him having a scorer's nose for where to be on the floor. Those easy baskets aren't quite as readily avaliable in the playoffs with better defensive teams so that contributes to decline in his playoff scoring as well.

This is why I don't see Malone's drop off in the playoffs as "choking", but as a drop off that can be naturally expected from him given his skills as a scorer. He was better at scoring on paper than a guy like Duncan...but he was better at things that are more likely to be taken away in the playoffs. That is why he's overrated as a scorer.

kaima wrote:Another quick visual anecdote:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bsuLF0DqzU[/youtube]


Great performance but this shows exactly what people already criticize about Malone's game. Too many jumpers! In a game he was "on", he's going to look amazing, but he didn't mix it up in these years, his iso-scoring is too dependent on them. The thing that bothers me is that I believe he had the talent and body to score in so many more different ways, but he just fell in love with that jumper. It's a non-attacking shot which bails out defenses, it kept him from utilizing all of his skills, it was an inefficient shot against playoff defenses in isolation and it's why he couldn't pace his scoring like truly great scorers who know they can get theirs in a variety of ways whenever they want at any point of the game.

I already know Karl can shoot a jumper for me on command, but your jumper can't be on every game (especially if you're not a pure shooter) so what then can Malone do for me when I need him to score on isos? It's not an efficient shot in isos especially when it's your only real "go to" move. In the game before that one he shot 6/21, in the game after he shot 7/21. Too many jumpers and the result is very erratic iso-scoring where he looks like a world beater one night and hopeless the next night.
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Re: #18 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#79 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:15 am

Great, great breakdown fatal.
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Re: #18 Highest Peak of All Time (ends Wed 9:00 PM Pacific) 

Post#80 » by therealbig3 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:57 am

Voting so far:

68 West - 4 (Doctor MJ, ElGee, Lightning25, ThaRegul8r)

83 M. Malone - 4 (JordansBulls, Josephpaul, PTB Fan, SDChargers#1)

11 Dirk - 3 (C-izMe, DavidStern, bastillon)

03 McGrady - 2 (therealbig3, Doctor Positivity)

66 West - 1 (ardee)


EDIT: Josephpaul was waived...should his vote still count?

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