Retro Player of the Year Project

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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#1341 » by PTB Fan » Sun Jun 3, 2012 7:08 pm

Great project you have going on here!
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#1342 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:33 am

With the completion of the '11-12 voting, I've updated the lists on the first post of the thread:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1004743#p23122302

Major news:

LeBron James now ranks 10th all-time in POY shares, and joins the select club of players who have been a Player of the Decade over a 10 year stretch.

I expect semi-sentient will update his website for the project soon. That will always remain the coolest place to check out the results. Link:

http://rpoy.dolem.com/
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#1343 » by C-izMe » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:39 am

No highest 10s POY Shares section yet? It's been two years.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#1344 » by semi-sentient » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:35 am

Finally got around to updating the site.

C-izMe wrote:No highest 10s POY Shares section yet? It's been two years.


Check out the "Misc" section on http://rpoy.dolem.com. There are a few different views available, including POY share leaders.

Doc: LeBron is actually up to the #9 spot, just ahead of Dr J.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#1345 » by MacGill » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:53 pm

semi-sentient wrote:Finally got around to updating the site.

C-izMe wrote:No highest 10s POY Shares section yet? It's been two years.


Check out the "Misc" section on http://rpoy.dolem.com. There are a few different views available, including POY share leaders.

Doc: LeBron is actually up to the #9 spot, just ahead of Dr J.


Hey Semi, 82-83 has Moses #1 & #2.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#1346 » by lorak » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:09 pm

MacGill wrote:
Hey Semi, 82-83 has Moses #1 & #2.


Because he was so dominant that year.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#1347 » by semi-sentient » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:59 pm

Looks like a few of the years got mixed up (82-83 were combined, and '81 was missing). Should be good to go now.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#1348 » by JordansBulls » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:33 pm

You should use Lebron in a Heat jersey for 2012 instead of a Cavs jersey. :D
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#1349 » by DayofMourning » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:00 am

Awesome stuff. Those all time rankings are pretty correct by my view. Great work.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#1350 » by ushvinder88 » Sat Oct 6, 2012 9:32 pm

Larry Bird being chosen as the 1981 player of the year is probably the weakest choice ever. He wasn't even top 10 in PER during the regular season, did absolutely nothing in the nba finals. Moses Malone, Dr. J and Kareem were all better that year.

Kevin Garnett for 2008 is a hoorendously weak choice too. Played sheltered minutes during the regular season, was the 2nd scoring option in order to win a ring. Chris Paul and Lebron were clearly better players this year.

It's obvious the criteria is which player got to play on a team that won, rather than who actually was the best. Surprising though that the criteria doesnt have magic above bird in 1985 when magic was clearly better in the playoffs.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#1351 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Oct 7, 2012 9:33 pm

ushvinder88 wrote:It's obvious the criteria is which player got to play on a team that won, rather than who actually was the best. Surprising though that the criteria doesnt have magic above bird in 1985 when magic was clearly better in the playoffs.


Interesting.

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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#1352 » by tsherkin » Mon Oct 8, 2012 6:08 pm

ushvinder88 wrote:Larry Bird being chosen as the 1981 player of the year is probably the weakest choice ever. He wasn't even top 10 in PER during the regular season, did absolutely nothing in the nba finals. Moses Malone, Dr. J and Kareem were all better that year.


Using PER as an argument is always a bad start.

Kevin Garnett for 2008 is a hoorendously weak choice too. Played sheltered minutes during the regular season, was the 2nd scoring option in order to win a ring. Chris Paul and Lebron were clearly better players this year.


Yes, using the guy who was the DPOY and 3rd in the MVP vote was such a bad idea... The whole idea of a
veteran team was to distribute the offensive load and then conserve minutes to help the older players (Pierce, KG and Ray were 30, 31 and 32 respectively that season) stay healthy through the RS and into the PS. Don't miss the forest for the trees on that one, especially since KG played 38 mpg in the playoffs.

More particularly, he was the first option in the playoffs. He struggled at times, that's true, but by a rather wide margin, he was the primary volume scoring threat on the team in the playoffs. Pierce's FGA/g don't reflect his overall usage, of course, you have to account for how effectively he was drawing fouls on possessions not recorded in FGA, but still. The team was running the ball into Garnett a LOT, and he was creating with his passing ability and with his scoring threat.

You can certainly make a good argument for Paul and Lebron that year, but you're doing it in a particularly poor fashion.

It's obvious the criteria is which player got to play on a team that won, rather than who actually was the best. Surprising though that the criteria doesnt have magic above bird in 1985 when magic was clearly better in the playoffs.


I'll echo Doctor MJ's comment on that one, because the logic is just abominable.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#1353 » by ushvinder88 » Mon Oct 8, 2012 6:35 pm

tsherkin wrote:
ushvinder88 wrote:Larry Bird being chosen as the 1981 player of the year is probably the weakest choice ever. He wasn't even top 10 in PER during the regular season, did absolutely nothing in the nba finals. Moses Malone, Dr. J and Kareem were all better that year.


Using PER as an argument is always a bad start.

Kevin Garnett for 2008 is a hoorendously weak choice too. Played sheltered minutes during the regular season, was the 2nd scoring option in order to win a ring. Chris Paul and Lebron were clearly better players this year.


Yes, using the guy who was the DPOY and 3rd in the MVP vote was such a bad idea... The whole idea of a
veteran team was to distribute the offensive load and then conserve minutes to help the older players (Pierce, KG and Ray were 30, 31 and 32 respectively that season) stay healthy through the RS and into the PS. Don't miss the forest for the trees on that one, especially since KG played 38 mpg in the playoffs.

More particularly, he was the first option in the playoffs. He struggled at times, that's true, but by a rather wide margin, he was the primary volume scoring threat on the team in the playoffs. Pierce's FGA/g don't reflect his overall usage, of course, you have to account for how effectively he was drawing fouls on possessions not recorded in FGA, but still. The team was running the ball into Garnett a LOT, and he was creating with his passing ability and with his scoring threat.

You can certainly make a good argument for Paul and Lebron that year, but you're doing it in a particularly poor fashion.

It's obvious the criteria is which player got to play on a team that won, rather than who actually was the best. Surprising though that the criteria doesnt have magic above bird in 1985 when magic was clearly better in the playoffs.


I'll echo Doctor MJ's comment on that one, because the logic is just abominable.

Many people consider chris paul's 2008 and 2009 runs arguable the best ever for pg since magic in 1987. Kevin garnett's 2008 run was probably not even a top 15-20 season ever by a pf. I remember the 2008 season like it was yesterday, garnett was not the best player in the league, he was clearly worse than the 2003-2005 garnett. Again this is an example where realgm selectively chooses player of the year based on team success. However, that theory is thrown out of the window when it comes to the golden boy larry bird and his epic choke job in 1985.

I dont care if PER isnt the only criteria. Dr. J in 1981 was also a much better defender than bird was. Moses Malone outperformed larry bird in both the regular season and the playoffs. The retro player of the year is nothing more than made up revisionism by internet fans.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#1354 » by tsherkin » Mon Oct 8, 2012 7:13 pm

ushvinder88 wrote:Many people consider chris paul's 2008 and 2009 runs arguable the best ever for pg since magic in 1987.


I don't disagree with you here, as it happens, which is why I said that I think you CAN make pretty strong arguments for Paul and Lebron in 2008, but rather objected to your angle of approach, not your result. I merely pointed out that Garnett's selection wasn't this terrible tragedy and injustice, as you implied.

Kevin garnett's 2008 run was probably not even a top 15-20 season ever by a pf.


Performance relative to historical position is interesting, but there's nothing that definitively suggests that a great performance relative to historical PGs is more valuable than what Garnett did in for the Celtics relative to historical PFs. It's an interesting narrative, of course, but it means only so much.

I remember the 2008 season like it was yesterday, garnett was not the best player in the league, he was clearly worse than the 2003-2005 garnett. Again this is an example where realgm selectively chooses player of the year based on team success. However, that theory is thrown out of the window when it comes to the golden boy larry bird and his epic choke job in 1985.


That's one way to look at it. Remember, though, that the RPOY Project defined their goal as this:

Our definition for the Player of the Year was the player who had the best season, including both regular season and playoffs.


It didn't say most productive, it didn't say best player, it said best season factoring in both the RS and the PS. That changes the tone of what happened a lot, and will invariably weight towards players who were able to accomplish more in the PS as well. Don't forget that Garnett's raw scoring average dropped because of his teammates and minutes and he had what was arguably the best offensive season of his career in terms of facilitating team offense and per-possession production.

In any case, you have a subjective opinion that is different from the consensus, which is cool. There were a number of intriguing candidates that year... and Garnett didn't win unanimously. He was neck-and-neck with Bryant (.692 to .650 POY shares), with Paul and James next at .592 and .554, respectively. It was a tight race, and like any vote, it's more about who was in the top group than the final result (unless it was a really strongly one-sided vote, which this wasn't). You're using an example that really doesn't support your argument all that much, though, because Garnett was a reasonably strong candidate and the basic premise of the project was designed to reward postseason play. Calling it revisionist history misses the point and makes you seem oddly bitter over the results, since you don't seem to understand the notion behind the project.

I dont care if PER isnt the only criteria. Dr. J in 1981 was also a much better defender than bird was. Moses Malone outperformed larry bird in both the regular season and the playoffs. The retro player of the year is nothing more than made up revisionism by internet fans.


Yes, Dr. J was a better defender in 81. But yes, Bird was a 21/11/5.5 player in the RS who was still a very good help defender. There are some intriguing arguments for both players when you look at the RS, and then Bird was a 22/14/6 player come the playoffs. Played pretty well, at least until the Finals.

But what you may be forgetting is this:

81 Erving

RS: 24.6 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 4.4 apg, 57.2% TS, 113 ORTG, great defense
PS: 22.9 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 3.4 apg, 52.7% TS, 105 ORTG, less effective defense

That's a pretty steep drop-off in efficacy. He played three rounds, lost to Bird's Celtics and looked worse in the playoffs than he did in the RS. Noticeably so, at that, including WAY worse at scoring efficiently compared to the regular season. His offensive productivity and efficiency tailed off pretty badly.

Now, 81 Bird

RS: 21.2 ppg, 10.9 rpg, 5.5 apg, 52.8% TS, 107 ORTG
PS: 21.9 ppg, 14.0 rpg, 6.1 apg, 53.2% TS, 109 ORTG

Hmmm.... Unlike Erving, Bird didn't actually worsen compared to his RS performance... he actually improved on the glass and as a playmaker, scored slightly more and very slightly elevated his efficiency. The exact opposite of what happened with Dr. J. Inclusion of the postseason begins to matter!

Now, let's look at the Philly/Boston series in the ECFs, which was neck and neck through the first four games before the Sixers dropped the last three in a row.

Bird: 26.7 ppg, 6.7 FTA/g (don't have data beyond FGM, FTM, FTA and PTS)
Erving: 19.9 ppg, 5.0 FTA/

What should be sharply apparent to you there is how much less effective Erving was in that series compared not only to the regular season but compared to the previous two rounds of the playoffs. In a comparison considering the efficacy of a player in both the regular season and the postseason, a stinker performance in the conference finals is going to factor in rather heavily when you're going head to head against a guy who stuck it to that same player's team rather angrily. Now, there's no efficiency data there, of course, but I think it's pretty clear that Bird was torching the Sixers pretty badly. There's only so much that can be said there, since he had a roughly 6-point increase in his scoring volume and commensurate increase in FTAs of nearly 75%. That's the rough profile of Bird kicking Erving's Sixers in the teeth.

Now, the Finals, over which you weep so readily, the 6-game victory of Moses Malone's Rockets.

Bird: 15.3 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 7.0 apg

Right off of the bat, we see a decline in scoring volume. Not good, but there's a significant rebounding and passing increase as well to compensate. 45.98% TS. Rough, ugly, terrible.

Game-by-game:

G1: 9/17 FG, 0/0 FT, 18 pts, 21 reb, 9 ast, 5 tov
G2: 8/18 FG, 3/3 FT, 19 pts, 21 reb, 3 ast, 5 stl
G3: 3/11 FG, 2/4 FT, 8 pts, 13 reb, 10 ast, 5 stl
G4: 3/11 FG, 2/2 FT, 8 pts, 12 reb, 7 ast and a bad turnover late in the 4th
G5: 5/16 FG, 2/2 FT, 12 pts, 12 reb, 8 ast,
G6: 11/20 FG, 4/5 FT, 26 pts, 13 reb, 5 ast

In the elimination game, he scored16 pts in the second half and 7 of them in the last 3 or 4 minutes.

Looking at that narrative, he struggled from the field in the middle three games while continuing to hit the boards and play an important role as a passing hub. You know from watching that he played good help defense and then he rammed Houston in the teeth in the elimination game. Not quite the picture painted by the overall series averages, which is often the case. Also looking at how he began and ended the series, as well as his performance outside of scoring, it kind of changes the whole tone of how people approach that series. He's not a perfect player, but given his RS performance, his performance overall on the playoffs (especially through the first three rounds and how he kicked in Erving's Sixers in the ECFs) and then how he closed out Game 6 against Malone's Rockets, it's really not all that surprising that he won the RPOY vote.

Remember, you're operating from an errant understanding of what the project was about. It wasn't about the "best player" in the sense of who was individually the best in the RS... that's not even what the MVP is about. The project was rating the best combination of RS and PS performance and results, and given that Bird was an elite performer in both the regular and postseason and the specific results he had, that's not a bad fit.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#1355 » by ushvinder88 » Tue Oct 9, 2012 12:04 am

The gap in the regular season between bird and dr.j was massive, dont even try and make it sound like it was close. Hey since you tried using his playoff run as a reason as to why you rank him above dr. j and moses in 1981. Where is the same argument for magic in 1985, oh I forgot, for that the playoffs is irrelevant because bird was awesome in the regular season?

1985 playoffs:
Bird: Per of 20.9, TS% of 53.6 and win shares per 48 of .155
Magic: Per of 22.3, TS% of 59.9 and win shares per 48 of .21

Thats called getting outplayed in the playoffs. However I am sure you will make an excuse to disregard bird in 1985, while somehow blaming moses and dr.j for thier shortcoming in 1981. Even though the gap between moses/dr. j and bird in 1981 during the regular season was massive.

Moses was the best player on the court in the 81 playoffs, not bird. Moses lead the playoffs in points, rebounding, had a better per, was clearly more central to how his team got to the finals compared to bird. Had much better regular season numbers. Moses or Dr. J were the player of the year in 81, not bird.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#1356 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Oct 9, 2012 1:05 am

ushvinder88 wrote:The gap in the regular season between bird and dr.j was massive, dont even try and make it sound like it was close. Hey since you tried using his playoff run as a reason as to why you rank him above dr. j and moses in 1981. Where is the same argument for magic in 1985, oh I forgot, for that the playoffs is irrelevant because bird was awesome in the regular season?

1985 playoffs:
Bird: Per of 20.9, TS% of 53.6 and win shares per 48 of .155
Magic: Per of 22.3, TS% of 59.9 and win shares per 48 of .21

Thats called getting outplayed in the playoffs. However I am sure you will make an excuse to disregard bird in 1985, while somehow blaming moses and dr.j for thier shortcoming in 1981. Even though the gap between moses/dr. j and bird in 1981 during the regular season was massive.

Moses was the best player on the court in the 81 playoffs, not bird. Moses lead the playoffs in points, rebounding, had a better per, was clearly more central to how his team got to the finals compared to bird. Had much better regular season numbers. Moses or Dr. J were the player of the year in 81, not bird.


Listen dude.

You're treating this as if everyone involved was of one mind. They weren't. It's a group project. People have different ways of thinking. The points you bring up are nothing new. If you don't want to use the project that existed because you disagree with the final voting that's fine, but right now you just sound ridiculously naive.

The primary goal of all of these projects is to learn. People dive into history, they discuss, they debate, they bring in qualitative and quantitative research, they gain new tools for their future analysis. We do the voting because that's the hook that gets people in, not because we live and die by the results.

If you are incapable of seeing all of this, if you truly just object based on results that deviate from your own, then you can only be guaranteed that you won't be involved in these discussions, and you won't learn.

Beyond that, I doubt you have any inkling how an undertaking like this truly works. A lot of work, by a lot of people. For you to come in and think you can simply dismiss it so quickly based on "figuring out" how we all thought is pretty funny, which was my first response to you was itself so dismissive. You dug in just deep enough to see the evidence that shot your negating theory to hell, and this led you not to reconsider your thinking, but instead to accuse us all of not only superficial thinking, but of a shared bias which apparently made us fail at even our superficial standards. It's pretty hard to imagine a conclusion that is further from reality.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#1357 » by tsherkin » Tue Oct 9, 2012 2:56 am

ushvinder88 wrote:The gap in the regular season between bird and dr.j was massive, dont even try and make it sound like it was close. Hey since you tried using his playoff run as a reason as to why you rank him above dr. j and moses in 1981. Where is the same argument for magic in 1985, oh I forgot, for that the playoffs is irrelevant because bird was awesome in the regular season?


I haven't addressed the 85 season, so bringing that up without addressing what I actually said is poor approach.

Meantime, the gap between Bird and Dr. J in the 81 regular season is overblown, but that's less important given that the RPOY project was EXPLICITLY about not just the RS but the playoffs as well.

Moses was the best player on the court in the 81 playoffs, not bird. Moses lead the playoffs in points, rebounding, had a better per, was clearly more central to how his team got to the finals compared to bird.


Moses scored more, it's true... but you neglected to mention that he was 4.6 ppg BELOW his playoff average during the Finals. He fell off rather sharply come the Finals and underperformed considerably, which factors in as well. There was a key stretch in game one where the Celtics had 6 offensive rebounds to maintain an extended possession near the end of the game that helped them win, and Moses couldn't do anything about it. Rick Robey defended Malone effectively in Game 3 when Malone injured Parish and knocked him out of the game. Rockets got lucky in Game 4, coming up dry big time in the fourth, but Boston bricked free throws left, right and center to hand the game away. I could go on, but you're ignoring the facts and points I'm making to wank about 1985 instead of addressing the comments about the other seasons you wanted to discuss, which suggests to me that you don't want a debate at all, you just want your point to be true regardless of whether or not it matches reality.

Had much better regular season numbers. Moses or Dr. J were the player of the year in 81, not bird.


You continue to prove that you don't know what you're talking about here, and don't understand the nature of the RPOY project.

But for giggles, let's look at 85.

Bird was at .900 shares, Magic was at .800 shares. Bird had 14 first place and 7 second place votes, Magic 7 and 14. Basically everyone knew it came down to Magic and Bird.

RS: 28.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 6.6 apg, 58.5% TS, 119 ORTG, 10.5 OWS, 15.7 WS and .238 (leading the league in all 3), All-Star, All-NBA 1st Team, MVP

PS: 26.0 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 5.8 apg, 53.6% TS, 113 ORTG,

Finals: 23.8 ppg, 8.8 rpg, 5.0 apg, 52.7% TS

18/6/9 in game one, the Memorial Day Massacre, on 8/14 shooting and 31 min. Could have padded his stats, didn't.

30/12/3 on 9/21 FG, 11/11 FT in Game 2, scored 12 in the 3rd quarter but couldn't stop Kareem (who scored 30 and rocked like 10 skyhooks made in the game).

20/7/3 on 8/21 FG and 4/5 FT in Game 3.

26/11/5 on 8/16 and 10/12, including 11 pts in the 4th, as well as the assist on the winning bucket by DJ.

20/7/7 on 8/17 and 3/5. Definitely a game that Magic and Kareem dominated. Magic had 26/17 and 3 of the last 7 L.A. buckets (Kareem had the other 4).

28/10/3 on 12/29, 4/5. DJ and Ainge MISSED 25/31 shots. Worthy and Kareem scored 28 and 29 points. Magic had 14/10/14 on 5/15 FG and 4/4 FT, with 5 PF and 4 TOV but had a couple of key drives at the end of the 4th.

Magic

RS: 18.3 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 12.6 apg, 4.0 tpg, 63.7% TS, 123 ORTG
PS: 17.5 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 15.2 apg, 59.9% TS, 122 ORTG, led the playoffs in OWS (2.0) and WS (3.0).
Finals: 18.3 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 14.0 apg, 3.3 tpg, 56.9% TS

When you look at it that way, it's a reasonably tough argument. Magic had some big games, Bird had some big games. Bird dominated the regular season and played well through the playoffs... Magic had a strong RS and dominated through the playoffs. They met one another in the Finals and dueled it out, with good and bad performances.

It's not nearly as clear-cut as you'd like for the sake of bending reality to your narrative. There's a very good pro-Magic argument, absolutely, but your approach is extremely weak and heavily flawed, riddled with bias and subjectivity.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#1358 » by ushvinder88 » Tue Oct 9, 2012 3:19 am

tsherkin wrote:
ushvinder88 wrote:The gap in the regular season between bird and dr.j was massive, dont even try and make it sound like it was close. Hey since you tried using his playoff run as a reason as to why you rank him above dr. j and moses in 1981. Where is the same argument for magic in 1985, oh I forgot, for that the playoffs is irrelevant because bird was awesome in the regular season?


I haven't addressed the 85 season, so bringing that up without addressing what I actually said is poor approach.

Meantime, the gap between Bird and Dr. J in the 81 regular season is overblown, but that's less important given that the RPOY project was EXPLICITLY about not just the RS but the playoffs as well.

Moses was the best player on the court in the 81 playoffs, not bird. Moses lead the playoffs in points, rebounding, had a better per, was clearly more central to how his team got to the finals compared to bird.


Moses scored more, it's true... but you neglected to mention that he was 4.6 ppg BELOW his playoff average during the Finals. He fell off rather sharply come the Finals and underperformed considerably, which factors in as well. There was a key stretch in game one where the Celtics had 6 offensive rebounds to maintain an extended possession near the end of the game that helped them win, and Moses couldn't do anything about it. Rick Robey defended Malone effectively in Game 3 when Malone injured Parish and knocked him out of the game. Rockets got lucky in Game 4, coming up dry big time in the fourth, but Boston bricked free throws left, right and center to hand the game away. I could go on, but you're ignoring the facts and points I'm making to wank about 1985 instead of addressing the comments about the other seasons you wanted to discuss, which suggests to me that you don't want a debate at all, you just want your point to be true regardless of whether or not it matches reality.

Had much better regular season numbers. Moses or Dr. J were the player of the year in 81, not bird.


You continue to prove that you don't know what you're talking about here, and don't understand the nature of the RPOY project.

But for giggles, let's look at 85.

Bird was at .900 shares, Magic was at .800 shares. Bird had 14 first place and 7 second place votes, Magic 7 and 14. Basically everyone knew it came down to Magic and Bird.

RS: 28.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 6.6 apg, 58.5% TS, 119 ORTG, 10.5 OWS, 15.7 WS and .238 (leading the league in all 3), All-Star, All-NBA 1st Team, MVP

PS: 26.0 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 5.8 apg, 53.6% TS, 113 ORTG,

Finals: 23.8 ppg, 8.8 rpg, 5.0 apg, 52.7% TS

18/6/9 in game one, the Memorial Day Massacre, on 8/14 shooting and 31 min. Could have padded his stats, didn't.

30/12/3 on 9/21 FG, 11/11 FT in Game 2, scored 12 in the 3rd quarter but couldn't stop Kareem (who scored 30 and rocked like 10 skyhooks made in the game).

20/7/3 on 8/21 FG and 4/5 FT in Game 3.

26/11/5 on 8/16 and 10/12, including 11 pts in the 4th, as well as the assist on the winning bucket by DJ.

20/7/7 on 8/17 and 3/5. Definitely a game that Magic and Kareem dominated. Magic had 26/17 and 3 of the last 7 L.A. buckets (Kareem had the other 4).

28/10/3 on 12/29, 4/5. DJ and Ainge MISSED 25/31 shots. Worthy and Kareem scored 28 and 29 points. Magic had 14/10/14 on 5/15 FG and 4/4 FT, with 5 PF and 4 TOV but had a couple of key drives at the end of the 4th.

Magic

RS: 18.3 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 12.6 apg, 4.0 tpg, 63.7% TS, 123 ORTG
PS: 17.5 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 15.2 apg, 59.9% TS, 122 ORTG, led the playoffs in OWS (2.0) and WS (3.0).
Finals: 18.3 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 14.0 apg, 3.3 tpg, 56.9% TS

When you look at it that way, it's a reasonably tough argument. Magic had some big games, Bird had some big games. Bird dominated the regular season and played well through the playoffs... Magic had a strong RS and dominated through the playoffs. They met one another in the Finals and dueled it out, with good and bad performances.

It's not nearly as clear-cut as you'd like for the sake of bending reality to your narrative. There's a very good pro-Magic argument, absolutely, but your approach is extremely weak and heavily flawed, riddled with bias and subjectivity.

I never said magic should be the consensus choice for player of the year in 1985, what i am implying is that he has a much stronger case for 85 than bird does for 81. Larry Bird's overall playoff is so mediocre that 1981 is actually being chosen as a great year for him. If shaq or lebron put up numbers that aweful, they would get flamed for it. Its just unfortunate that the mancrush for larry bird continues. He was the best from 84-86, but the player of the year in 81, please.

I do know what i am talking about here, its just that this forum in general has players that are very open to criticism, and certain players are protected. Bird being player of the year in 81 isnt reality, its made up revisionism. Just for giggles, post larry bird's stats in the 1981 finals, he averaged what, like 15 ppg on 41% shooting. Oh yeah that seals the deal for his case against moses and dr. j.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#1359 » by tsherkin » Tue Oct 9, 2012 1:10 pm

ushvinder88 wrote:I never said magic should be the consensus choice for player of the year in 1985, what i am implying is that he has a much stronger case for 85 than bird does for 81.


And he nearly won the 85 vote, so what's the problem? He was represented strongly in the 85 vote, just like others were likewise represented strongly in the 81 vote.

Larry Bird's overall playoff is so mediocre that 1981


That's not a universally shared opinion, no. He played just fine for three rounds before the Finals, kicking Erving's Sixers in pretty badly, and then he struggled with his shot in the Finals but affected the game with help D, dominant rebounding and passing, opening and closing the series with strong scoring performances. That's not really "mediocre," especially not with back-to-back 21 rebound performances.

He was the best from 84-86, but the player of the year in 81, please.

I do know what i am talking about here, its just that this forum in general has players that are very open to criticism, and certain players are protected. Bird being player of the year in 81 isnt reality, its made up revisionism. Just for giggles, post larry bird's stats in the 1981 finals, he averaged what, like 15 ppg on 41% shooting. Oh yeah that seals the deal for his case against moses and dr. j.


No, I think you don't. I appreciate that you have basketball knowledge, but I think you're still orbiting the basic idea of what the point of the RPOY project was all about.

Also, ushvinder, why would you say "post Bird's stats in the 1981 Finals?"

If you were reading, you'd know I already have. I've posted Bird's RS and PS stats for 81, including the specific stats for the ECFs and the Finals. Go back and read a little more instead of skipping past what you don't want to read.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year Project 

Post#1360 » by ardee » Tue Oct 9, 2012 3:36 pm

ushvinder88 wrote:The gap in the regular season between bird and dr.j was massive, dont even try and make it sound like it was close.


:o

Are you kidding? Bird had something like 8 20-20 games in 12 games at one point. He came to LA and dropped 36-21-5 on them, and then went to Seattle the next night and went 23-17-8. He had injuries, yes, but when he was playing he was ridiculously dominant.

Don't understand where you're coming from with the anit-Bird arguments :-?

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