Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks

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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#121 » by QuantMisleads » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:52 pm

And he would still be a god among men today. There was a recent interview where an old Philly basketball native (I forget his name right now, but he was friends with Wilt growing up and was known among the NBA community) said Wilt would own not only a team, but the entire league if he were playing today. That video, and even older videos of him with the Lakers like his game 6 vs. Chicago where LA lost shows how incredible he really was. And by then he had lost a LOT of his athleticism!

BTW, one thing that really annoys me is how everyone says that they would pick Shaq over Wilt becuase of their respective offensive capabilities, but let me remind everyone ONCE AGAIN as I have done so many times before, that we don't even have ONE video of Wilt where he scored 40+ POINTS! So how is it that many of you say you have an informed opinion on this? Let's stop being ridiculous, the next time someone makes a statement about their offensive capabilities and puts Wilt below Shaq is going to get called out.

BTW Ardee, you forgot about Wilt's 1972 season, which was DEFINITELY better than Shaq's 2001, in fact I would argue it's not even close.

I personally rank Wilt's 1962 season as his best ever, because it really was. He was a powerhouse in the regular season, and in the playoffs he was limited due to effective triple and quadruple teaming by the Celtics, so he focused completely instead on the defensive end and almost beat the Celtics, a series where there was a consensus the Celtics were going to win. So given my simple arguments, how is it that you guys rank it so low? Two reasons. One reason is that you look at his huge numbers in the regular season and say it was detrimental to the team. This is of course nonsense mostly, but let's get to the second argument. The second argument says that Wilt didn't put up the numbers in the playoffs that he did in the regular season and THAT is why they lost. This is of course ahistorical analysis and completely non-scientific. There are two reasons his numbers went down: because it's the **** playoffs, where the pace slows waaaay down, and because everyone knew the ball was going to Wilt and because it was the playoffs it mattered to try to stop him. And let me remind everyone that in his younger years they didn't just triple/quadruple team him, they actually fouled him without the benefit of any foul calls.

The truth of the matter is, and everyone knows this, is that Wilt was the reason they almost beat the Celtics and pulled the upset. If you look at newspaper reports from that time, Cousy and Russell describe "the best defense Wilt or anyone has ever played", with Russell still talking about being scared of Wilt 2 games into the Celtics/LA series. But anyway, I'm not going to convince people who are intellectually dishonest.

BTW, Ardee, referring to his 1963 season, Wilt was essentially stuck by himself without a good team to play around, because all of the good players left because of the move to San Fransisco. Remember that this is the only season Wilt didn't make the playoffs, but that is because he was stuck around ****.

BTW, compare the last video with this one:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/zaXHYlPECcc

This shows you how Wilt changed from that period to this one. But the way he plays here is how he played the entire 1971-1972 season, where players said he was playing as if he was 20 again.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#122 » by QuantMisleads » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:45 pm

BTW, this new video is simply fantastic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGjyPfDcyoI

edit: a few other sensational stories are left out, but one that immediately came to mind was when he broke Johnny Kerr's Toe because he slammed the ball so hard through the net.

Anyway, watching all this and understanding that these videos don't even show Wilt at his best scoring wise (ie we don't have a full game of his scoring 40+ points), rebounding wise(though close) or blocking especially (many 25+ block games), knowing all the sensational things he did, and still, STILL you have people rating players like Tim Duncan over him, which is BEYOND PREPOSTEROUS.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#123 » by thebottomline » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:28 pm

QuantMisleads wrote:Actually Wilt always made free throws in the clutch. Consistently, in fact he did it in many, many elimination games, even when they lost. The only season where maybe his free throw shooting led to their demise (maybe) was in 1966 against Boston in game 5.

I believe these are all of Wilt's elimination games except for Game 3 of the EDSF for which I can't find his FTA.

6 for 14 FT in Game 5 of the 1960 EDF - won by 21
10 for 16 FT in Game 6 of the 1960 EDF - lost by 2
7 for 14 FT in Game 3 of the 1961 EDSF - lost by 3
12 for 22 FT in Game 5 of the 1962 EDSF - won by 17
8 for 10 FT in Game 6 of the 1962 EDF - won by 10
8 for 9 FT in Game 7 of the 1962 EDF - lost by 2
1 for 6 FT in Game 6 of the 1964 WDF - won by 10
6 for 9 FT in Game 5 of the 1964 Finals - lost by 6
6 for 13 FT in Game 7 of the 1965 EDF - lost by 1
8 for 25 FT in Game 5 of the 1966 EDF - lost by 8
6 for 15 FT in Game 7 of the 1968 EDF - lost by 4
4 for 13 FT in Game 7 of the 1969 Finals - lost by 2
12 for 19 FT in Game 5 of the 1970 WDSF - won by 17
4 for 12 FT in Game 6 of the 1970 WDSF - won by 11
8 for 17 FT in Game 7 of the 1970 WDSF - won by 35
5 for 14 FT in Game 6 of the 1970 Finals - won by 22
1 for 11 FT in Game 7 of the 1970 Finals - lost by 14
11 for 17 FT in Game 7 of the 1971 WCSF - won by 11
3 for 9 FT in Game 5 of the 1971 WCF - lost by 18
1 for 1 FT in Game 7 of the 1973 WCSF - won by 3
5 for 14 FT in Game 5 of the 1973 Finals - lost by 9

Average of 47.1%, lower than his regular season average by 4.0% but slightly higher than his postseason average by 0.6%.

So Wilt did have a few good FT shooting games - I would not say "many". In bold are games in which his missed FT was equal to or greater than the amount of points by which his team lost. Of course, I don't think it's fair to blame Wilt entirely in all of those cases. In most games on this list his FT shooting didn't seem to be a significant factor in the end result, though it's impossible to say how the dynamics would have changed during a particular game if he had made or missed more FTs. Your statement that Wilt consistently made his FTs in elimination games, however, seems to be hyperbole. Do you have information about Wilt's distribution of FTs made by quarter or something that led you to state that Wilt consistently made his FTs in the clutch in elimination games?
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#124 » by QuantMisleads » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:38 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEm4SMec ... el&list=UL

Now it's the biggest shame that we have almost no videos of Gus Johnson. He was a powerful fellow, and the same guy who's shoulder Wilt dislocated.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#125 » by Raaccoonn » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:40 pm

ardee wrote:Obviously this was 10 years before his peak, but HOLY ***** look at that. His quickness, his skill, his strength. My friends, that was not a man among boys, that was a God among men :o

Go to 1:07. That's Derrick Rose quickness on Shaq's body.

Enough with the hyperbole...
We know you're all up on his d*** but calm down.

He was not a "god".
He was one of the best athletes the NBA has ever seen in one of its least athletic eras.
Obviously he stood out more then most athletically based on those facts.

He was not very skilled offensively compared to Shaq or any of the other Top 5 GOAT C's sans Russell.
He had relatively unimpressive footwork (especially in his early years), was a poor passer for the majority of his career and rarely was capable of scoring on high volume while staying efficient.

Not to mention he was frequently a sub .40% FT shooter during his actual Prime years which meant the Hack-A-**** strategy could have actually been used against him successfully.
Funny how you try to paint him as this "Dirk like" shooter then he couldn't even hit FT's. :lol:

He was not the GOAT athlete at the C position (Shaq was) and I am not 100% sure he has the 2nd spot locked down either (David Robinson anyone?).

I have video of Shaq running the court end to end faster then Wilt did @ 1:07 while dribbling the ball.


Also college Wilt was a good 50-70lbs lighter then any version of NBA Shaq so that isn't Shaq's body.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#126 » by QuantMisleads » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:43 pm

thebottomline wrote:
QuantMisleads wrote:Actually Wilt always made free throws in the clutch. Consistently, in fact he did it in many, many elimination games, even when they lost. The only season where maybe his free throw shooting led to their demise (maybe) was in 1966 against Boston in game 5.

I believe these are all of Wilt's elimination games except for Game 3 of the EDSF for which I can't find his FTA.

6 for 14 FT in Game 5 of the 1960 EDF - won by 21
10 for 16 FT in Game 6 of the 1960 EDF - lost by 2
7 for 14 FT in Game 3 of the 1961 EDSF - lost by 3
12 for 22 FT in Game 5 of the 1962 EDSF - won by 17
8 for 10 FT in Game 6 of the 1962 EDF - won by 10
8 for 9 FT in Game 7 of the 1962 EDF - lost by 2
1 for 6 FT in Game 6 of the 1964 WDF - won by 10
6 for 9 FT in Game 5 of the 1964 Finals - lost by 6
6 for 13 FT in Game 7 of the 1965 EDF - lost by 1
8 for 25 FT in Game 5 of the 1966 EDF - lost by 8
6 for 15 FT in Game 7 of the 1968 EDF - lost by 4
4 for 13 FT in Game 7 of the 1969 Finals - lost by 2
12 for 19 FT in Game 5 of the 1970 WDSF - won by 17
4 for 12 FT in Game 6 of the 1970 WDSF - won by 11
8 for 17 FT in Game 7 of the 1970 WDSF - won by 35
5 for 14 FT in Game 6 of the 1970 Finals - won by 22
1 for 11 FT in Game 7 of the 1970 Finals - lost by 14
11 for 17 FT in Game 7 of the 1971 WCSF - won by 11
3 for 9 FT in Game 5 of the 1971 WCF - lost by 18
1 for 1 FT in Game 7 of the 1973 WCSF - won by 3
5 for 14 FT in Game 5 of the 1973 Finals - lost by 9

Average of 47.1%, lower than his regular season average by 4.0% but slightly higher than his postseason average by 0.6%.

So Wilt did have a few good FT shooting games - I would not say "many". In bold are games in which his missed FT was equal to or greater than the amount of points by which his team lost. Of course, I don't think it's fair to blame Wilt entirely in all of those cases. In most games on this list his FT shooting didn't seem to be a significant factor in the end result, though it's impossible to say how the dynamics would have changed during a particular game if he had made or missed more FTs. Your statement that Wilt consistently made his FTs in elimination games, however, seems to be hyperbole. Do you have information about Wilt's distribution of FTs made by quarter or something that led you to state that Wilt consistently made his FTs in the clutch in elimination games?


I was talking about clutch free throws, that is, free throws with a minute or less remaining and with the game on the line. He did it in 1962 vs. Boston, he did it in 1965 as well vs. Boston (though he missed his other free throw shots earlier), in 1967 vs. the Warriors in the finals he hit clutch free throws to finish off game 6, in game 7 in 1970 vs. Phoenix I believe he hit clutch free throws as well, and there were a few other moments that I can't remember off of the top of my head. I should have written them down somewhere....
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#127 » by QuantMisleads » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:47 pm

Raaccoonn wrote:
He was not a "god".
He was one of the best athletes the NBA has ever seen in one of its least athletic eras.
Obviously he stood out more then most athletically based on those facts.

Questionable. Read my sig.

He was not very skilled offensively compared to Shaq or any of the other Top 5 GOAT C's sans Russell.
He had relatively unimpressive footwork (especially in his early years), was a poor passer for the majority of his career and rarely was capable of scoring on high volume while staying efficient.


In his early years he had moves nobody could touch. You're quite simply a fool. You probably didn't even watch the video he posted.

Not to mention he was frequently a sub .40% FT shooter during his actual Prime years which meant the Hack-A-**** strategy could have actually been used against him successfully.
Funny how you try to paint him as this "Dirk like" shooter then he couldn't even hit FT's. :lol:


But in his younger years he was actually a decent free throw shooter for a center.
62% in 1962. And your latter statement shows how not-serious you are and why nobody should take you seriously. DID YOU WATCH THE VIDEO? No, it's obvious you DID NOT.
He was not the GOAT athlete at the C position (Shaq was) and I am not 100% sure he has the 2nd spot locked down either (David Robinson anyone?).

I have video of Shaq running the court end to end faster then Wilt did @ 1:07 while dribbling the ball.


Also college Wilt was a good 50-70lbs lighter then any version of NBA Shaq so that isn't Shaq's body.


Every expert knows Wilt was the GOAT athlete, not Shaq. Seriously dude, you're not serious.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#128 » by QuantMisleads » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:56 pm

BTW, a good video on Wilt's strength:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STXbuXGPdoY
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#129 » by Raaccoonn » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:01 pm

QuantMisleads wrote:Questionable. Read my sig.

In his early years he had moves nobody could touch. You're quite simply a fool. You probably didn't even watch the video he posted.

But in his younger years he was actually a decent free throw shooter for a center.
62% in 1962. And your latter statement shows how not-serious you are and why nobody should take you seriously. DID YOU WATCH THE VIDEO? No, it's obvious you DID NOT.

Every expert knows Wilt was the GOAT athlete, not Shaq. Seriously dude, you're not serious.


I watched the video.

The only shot he uses that involves any sort of skill is his little bank shot.
Most of the time when he uses that shot he is within 5 feet of the basket and because of his size/length he is rarely contested.

Obviously that move takes some skill but not anymore skill then it took Shaq to perform his jump-hook which probably had better range and was more accurate from further out.

Wilt scored mainly by using his enormous size/length advantage and his superior athletism.

Young Wilt's footwork and handles with his back to the basket reminds me more of D12 then Shaq or Hakeem.
He was just not that skilled as a post scorer in an All-Time sense.

If was way ahead of his times in terms of skill like you say not to mention his obvious advantage in athletism then he wouldn't have been held below 50% shooting in the majority of his high volume scoring seasons.

Who are these experts?
I have quotes from lots of old players including notable opponents and his pally Jerry West who all say Shaq was a better athlete then Wilt.

I have no bias and I have reviewed video of college and NBA Wilt and compared it to Shaq and its clear who the better athlete is.
Wilt is only comparable to Shaq in terms of speed and hops.
In every other athletic avenue (Quickness/Explosivness, Strength/Power and courdination) Shaq blows him out of the water.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#130 » by thizznation » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:06 pm

Ardee, Quant, thanks for the Wilt videos... Good stuff


Why do these Wilt vs Shaq threads turn into a discussion on how they would fair in a strongman competition?
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#131 » by QuantMisleads » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:26 pm

Raaccoonn wrote:
QuantMisleads wrote:Questionable. Read my sig.

In his early years he had moves nobody could touch. You're quite simply a fool. You probably didn't even watch the video he posted.

But in his younger years he was actually a decent free throw shooter for a center.
62% in 1962. And your latter statement shows how not-serious you are and why nobody should take you seriously. DID YOU WATCH THE VIDEO? No, it's obvious you DID NOT.

Every expert knows Wilt was the GOAT athlete, not Shaq. Seriously dude, you're not serious.


I watched the video.

The only shot he uses that involves any sort of skill is his little bank shot.
Most of the time when he uses that shot he is within 5 feet of the basket and because of his size/length he is rarely contested.

Obviously that move takes some skill but not anymore skill then it took Shaq to perform his jump-hook which probably had better range and was more accurate from further out.

Wilt scored mainly by using his enormous size/length advantage and his superior athletism.

Young Wilt's footwork and handles with his back to the basket reminds me more of D12 then Shaq or Hakeem.
He was just not that skilled as a post scorer in an All-Time sense.

If was way ahead of his times in terms of skill like you say not to mention his obvious advantage in athletism then he wouldn't have been held below 50% shooting in the majority of his high volume scoring seasons.

Who are these experts?
I have quotes from lots of old players including notable opponents and his pally Jerry West who all say Shaq was a better athlete then Wilt.

I have no bias and I have reviewed video of college and NBA Wilt and compared it to Shaq and its clear who the better athlete is.
Wilt is only comparable to Shaq in terms of speed and hops.
In every other athletic avenue (Quickness/Explosivness, Strength/Power and courdination) Shaq blows him out of the water.

Yes you do have bias. There are no videos of Wilt scoring 40+ points, NOT ONE, so how can you take what few videos of Wilt we have and make a sound judgment, and not only that, saying US WILT FANS are using hyperbole by just pointing out the obvious? Some of us live in the real world, and some of us don't. You my friend do not. and As the poster just said, these conversations always end up with people (ie Shaq fanboys) talking about his strength and using that as a reason to say Shaq would beat Wilt. Then I post videos and put up quotes where old players recall their most memorable moment in a basketball game and ALL of them talk about some moment that involved Wilt and his strength, something Wilt did not showcase often because he actually cared about using skill and finesse, the way basketball was supposed to be played. Shaq just bowled people over, that isn't skill, although it does say something about his unique size that enabled him to do this.

in fact, on the topic of strength, let me leave you with 5 of the stories that players have mentioned as their most memorable moment either watching or playing in a game in the NBA (IE, WHEN ASKED MOST MEMORABLE MOMENT, THESE WERE THE MOMENTS):
1) Daryl Dawkins: watched Wilt dunk with someone on his back, when Wilt came down he took the guy off his back and asked him if he was alright.
2) Billy Cunningham: watched Wilt dislocate Gus Johnson's shoulder (who was a POWERFUL guy, look at video I posted above) on a blocked shot.
3) Bob Lanier: remembered Wilt moving him like he was a coffee cup
4) Jerry West: remembered Wilt outhustling Kareem in game 6 of 1972 conf finals and called it the most ball busting performance he had ever seen.
5) Sam Jones: Sam jones held onto the ball with dear life as Wilt actually picked the ball up with Jones still on it (his feet dangling), and actually passed the ball.
Non basketball players:
6) Arnold Schwarzenegger: Wilt picked up him with one arm and carried him around
7) Stan Lorber: Wilt picked up two 200+ pound players with each arm and carried them around while he was with the globetrotters (ie before he entered the NBA, ie BEFORE THE MYTH WAS MADE THAT WILT WAS ONLY STRONG ONCE HE JOINED THE LAKERS)

and if you want to talk about moves in the paint, do you realize people like Rick Barry and Wilt himself criticized Shaq for having no skills when it came to his moves?

BTW, here is Sonny Hill on Wilt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfHI8BBIWTk
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#132 » by crgreen » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:15 pm

Jeff-Koon wrote:
ardee wrote:Also Shaq was not guarded by Smits in the Finals he was guarded by Dale Davis who was an All-Star and a very good / physical defender. He was 6 foot 10 and 285lbs of pure muscle and one of the strongest players in the league.
Obviously the Pacers didn't single coverage Shaq either they were throwing 3-4 defenders at him that entire series.



Is there a 2nd Dale Davis? The only one I know was 6'11 230. In his FINAL year in 2007, the Pistons had him up to 245 lbs - but that was after 16 years in the league. A ONE time all-star (in a REALLY depleted talent year - he was a 10pt 9.9 reb forward that season). And he NEVER made 1st or 2nd team all defense.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq in their peak 

Post#133 » by TheXFactor » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:23 pm

crgreen wrote:
Jeff-Koon wrote:
ardee wrote:Also Shaq was not guarded by Smits in the Finals he was guarded by Dale Davis who was an All-Star and a very good / physical defender. He was 6 foot 10 and 285lbs of pure muscle and one of the strongest players in the league.
Obviously the Pacers didn't single coverage Shaq either they were throwing 3-4 defenders at him that entire series.



Is there a 2nd Dale Davis? The only one I know was 6'11 230.


Apparently so, one that is 6 foot 10 and 285 lbs of muscle :lol: . Sorry, I found that funny
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#134 » by GreenHat » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:48 pm

QuantMisleads wrote:And he would still be a god among men today. There was a recent interview where an old Philly basketball native (I forget his name right now, but he was friends with Wilt growing up and was known among the NBA community) said Wilt would own not only a team, but the entire league if he were playing today. That video, and even older videos of him with the Lakers like his game 6 vs. Chicago where LA lost shows how incredible he really was. And by then he had lost a LOT of his athleticism!


One of Wilt's friends said he would own the entire league? Stop the presses everyone.

BTW, one thing that really annoys me is how everyone says that they would pick Shaq over Wilt becuase of their respective offensive capabilities, but let me remind everyone ONCE AGAIN as I have done so many times before, that we don't even have ONE video of Wilt where he scored 40+ POINTS! So how is it that many of you say you have an informed opinion on this? Let's stop being ridiculous, the next time someone makes a statement about their offensive capabilities and puts Wilt below Shaq is going to get called out.


What we do have is how many shots he was attempting. Scoring 50 points on 40 shots isn't impressive in a comparison to Shaq.

Also from the videos we do have we can so how poor the team defense is.

BTW Ardee, you forgot about Wilt's 1972 season, which was DEFINITELY better than Shaq's 2001, in fact I would argue it's not even close.


Case closed then, I guess.

I personally rank Wilt's 1962 season as his best ever, because it really was. He was a powerhouse in the regular season, and in the playoffs he was limited due to effective triple and quadruple teaming by the Celtics, so he focused completely instead on the defensive end and almost beat the Celtics, a series where there was a consensus the Celtics were going to win.


If he was consistently getting quadruple teamed they should have won in a blowout. Wilt was allegedly an amazing passer and was big enough to throw over the top of defenders, why didn't he carve up the defense with so many completely open teammates?

So given my simple arguments, how is it that you guys rank it so low? Two reasons. One reason is that you look at his huge numbers in the regular season and say it was detrimental to the team. This is of course nonsense mostly, but let's get to the second argument. The second argument says that Wilt didn't put up the numbers in the playoffs that he did in the regular season and THAT is why they lost. This is of course ahistorical analysis and completely non-scientific. There are two reasons his numbers went down: because it's the **** playoffs, where the pace slows waaaay down, and because everyone knew the ball was going to Wilt and because it was the playoffs it mattered to try to stop him. And let me remind everyone that in his younger years they didn't just triple/quadruple team him, they actually fouled him without the benefit of any foul calls.


Bringing up pace doesn't help pace doesn't help Wilt against Shaq. Its nice to see you acknowledge that Wilt's stats were pace inflated.

Again if he was getting triple/quadruple teamed then they should have by far the most efficient offense of all time. Let me guess video of him getting quadruple teamed all game doesn't exist either? It seems like all of the unbelievable stuff never happens when a camera is rolling. I guess Wilt just saves his 25 block games and being quadruple teamed for when the cameras aren't rolling.

And if you were allowed to commit fouls didn't that help him significantly on defense? Shaq would be a much better defender if he was allowed to play with the rules of the 60s, especially against the primitive offenses of the 60s.

The truth of the matter is, and everyone knows this, is that Wilt was the reason they almost beat the Celtics and pulled the upset. If you look at newspaper reports from that time, Cousy and Russell describe "the best defense Wilt or anyone has ever played", with Russell still talking about being scared of Wilt 2 games into the Celtics/LA series. But anyway, I'm not going to convince people who are intellectually dishonest.


Wilt was definitely the best player on his team so yes he would be the biggest reason why they almost won.

BTW, Ardee, referring to his 1963 season, Wilt was essentially stuck by himself without a good team to play around, because all of the good players left because of the move to San Fransisco. Remember that this is the only season Wilt didn't make the playoffs, but that is because he was stuck around ****.


His teammates were crappy that year but look at teams the teams that finished ahead of them. That Detroit team that made the playoffs ahead of them was putrid.

BTW, compare the last video with this one:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/zaXHYlPECcc

This shows you how Wilt changed from that period to this one. But the way he plays here is how he played the entire 1971-1972 season, where players said he was playing as if he was 20 again.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#135 » by GreenHat » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:55 pm

QuantMisleads wrote:BTW, this new video is simply fantastic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGjyPfDcyoI

edit: a few other sensational stories are left out, but one that immediately came to mind was when he broke Johnny Kerr's Toe because he slammed the ball so hard through the net.

Anyway, watching all this and understanding that these videos don't even show Wilt at his best scoring wise (ie we don't have a full game of his scoring 40+ points), rebounding wise(though close) or blocking especially (many 25+ block games), knowing all the sensational things he did, and still, STILL you have people rating players like Tim Duncan over him, which is BEYOND PREPOSTEROUS.


Do you think its purely coincidental that none of these "many 25+ block games" exist on tape?
Your emotions fuel the narratives that you create. You see what you want to see. You believe what you want to believe. You ascribe meaning when it is not there. You create significance when it is not present.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#136 » by QuantMisleads » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:25 am

GreenHat wrote:
QuantMisleads wrote:BTW, this new video is simply fantastic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGjyPfDcyoI

edit: a few other sensational stories are left out, but one that immediately came to mind was when he broke Johnny Kerr's Toe because he slammed the ball so hard through the net.

Anyway, watching all this and understanding that these videos don't even show Wilt at his best scoring wise (ie we don't have a full game of his scoring 40+ points), rebounding wise(though close) or blocking especially (many 25+ block games), knowing all the sensational things he did, and still, STILL you have people rating players like Tim Duncan over him, which is BEYOND PREPOSTEROUS.


Do you think its purely coincidental that none of these "many 25+ block games" exist on tape?

Is it also coincidental that NONE of his 40+ ppg exist on tape?

Grow a brain and stop talking.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#137 » by Dipper 13 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:53 am

As far as I know there is no full game of Wilt that still exists from the 60's. Certainly not to the public.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#138 » by MacGill » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:06 pm

Dipper 13 wrote:As far as I know there is no full game of Wilt that still exists from the 60's. Certainly not to the public.


This is the biggest problem Dipper13 to me when trying to evaluate Wilt. No disrespect to you or the Wilt supporters but the perception I get for Wilt is as follows: The articles posted around Wilt's career, match the highlight videos so the conclusion is that Wilt played this way his entire career??

This is why I appreciate ThaRegul8tr's & Fatal9's posts because they also provide the other side of the context that isn't so readily made available.

A couple of points:

Reg, supplied an article detailing how in his 50 ppg season Wilt's teammates made it a goal to ensure not only did he get enough touches to make this happen but championed the idea for the good of the game at that time.

I have never seen a Wilt supporter respond to this claim and provide insight about this. I believe in this case Reg was making the point about how teammates can influences one ability on the court for the good or bad and thus the article was shared. No direct link but I believe it is early in the top peak project.

2nd point: Fatal9, one of my fav poster's, provides video evidence of a more normal Wilt like game, more of what we would expect to see and you can clearly see in Wilt much of the opposite to what people claim as truth in his abilities. Wilt vs Duncan thread. He certainly appears to be much more mortal in this 2:15 clip then in any other I have watched. And to confirm, any evidence you provide or videos shown, I watch/read in full detail.

I mean, someone has to own this footage of earlier nba and it needs to get released for proper evaluation. However, I am not so sure that this will benefit Wilt and what he brought to the game should this ever happen. Let me give you an analogy here:

We have all seen the Shaq highlight video's, where he is dunking on everyone, breaking the entire basketball net, not just the rim, etc. Now the reason one can critize Shaq is because almost every game, quote, etc is made public and more easily found. In reality, I know Shaq took plays off, didn't score everytime time down the court, hell he has been blocked, badly at times. Case and point I take the good with the bad but I still rank his overall basketball ability to what he did very high and I can back that up with statistical and video evidence if needbe.

With Wilt, I feel dependant on who the poster is determines what picture will be painted. Articles have been posted on this site citing no fg's taken, needing to be trashed talked to get motivated etc but I find none of the tenured Wilt supporters (I hold you here because you are a very informative poster regarding him) respond to this and just let it go.

The point I am trying to make is it's almost like because we know right now there is very little footage some poster's use this as a means to paint this indestructable picture of Wilt and use selected articles to back it up as fact. In today's world, most written opinion is easily disregarded as bias, uneducated or just plain ridiculous especially when in Wilt's time playing and in his 100 point documentary Russell himself states that he & Wilt were trying to get this sport on the map.

So to me, it makes sense then why the articles never really match up to the video eye test, right? Not to take anything away from Wilt but only to evaluate him on a proper level instead of the hype that I am sure was strategic to the times and critical to the game. I mean can you imagine what would happen when/if footage of his 50ppg season get released and posters see how his teammate's spoonfed Wilt? What will be the rebuttal then? How will people justify his impact etc? (BTW, none of that was directed at you, as you are a much more mature Wilt poster.) But the question remains. The playoff game(s) where he doesn't take a shot, look at what happened with Kobe in a somewhat like regard, right.

Again, it just doesn't add up to me. Sure he played on the Globetrotter's but all of the footage has him dunking (easy for him) haven't seen him utilized for his dribbling. Then you see him dribble in the post and you then know why. But poster's want to credit him as if he was part of the And1 tour. I think Wilt happened to be the circus attraction for a growing sport and certainly put the nba on the map. I think many of the articles, stroies that followed Wilt helped provoke the curiousity of non fans and like in his 50ppg season they utilized him like the big top feature. He was still a remarkable athlete and it takes nothing away with what he has done but it appears the legend of Wilt is off only by what people can read and see which happens to be tailored to promote Wilt rather then show full detail.

I just think there are other articles out there where people are hesitant to share because it may take away from this perception. And if the day full video evidence of Wilt comes out, I'll be one of the first in line to watch every single game available from start to finish.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#139 » by LAKERS_1981 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:16 pm

This is hard to do. I have just seen many higlights of Wilt and some game play but i have seen Shaq from his rookie year to his last game for Boston.

Shaq 1999-2000 is the greatest player i have seen in my live. So i vote for him. Shaq dose not rank number 1 in my all time rankings of GOAT. But just for one season i take 1999-2000 Shaq over all the greatest Magic, Jordan, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Wilt, Russel and Jabbar.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#140 » by Brenice » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:27 pm

How many offensive fouls would have been called against Shaq during Wilt's era?

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