Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks

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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#141 » by jaypo » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:21 pm

Well, since players were allowed to undercut opponents without a foul being called, I'd assume that the rules were a little more favorable! Since Wilt never fouled out of a game, I'd say the rules were a little more favorable. And since about 95% of the "offensive fouls" you whine about were because the refs fall for flopping, I'd say it would not be an issue!
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#142 » by Brenice » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:32 pm

You are too sensitive.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#143 » by Brenice » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:35 pm

I'm one to think they both underachieved. Wilt's failures are brought up. I wonder what Shaq would have accomplished if he wasn't as lazy.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#144 » by MacGill » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:34 pm

Brenice wrote:I'm one to think they both underachieved. Wilt's failures are brought up. I wonder what Shaq would have accomplished if he wasn't as lazy.


But unlike Shaq we are judging Wilt based off minimal highlight video's, newspaper articles and verbal opinion. This is kind of the point I am trying to make here. Shaq's career is all documented in video so you really can't make false claims because we can simply point to the video evidence when in doubt.

If everything we have on Wilt is highlight footage and we are questioning certain aspects, well what do you think will happen when we get the full video picture? Then we will have a true comparison and much more of Wilt as it actually happened versus what we are told happened.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#145 » by jaypo » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:59 pm

Brenice wrote:You are too sensitive.


Only sensitive to ridiculous comments. For example, why do you think he was lazy? Was it because he didn't sprint down the floor every single trip down? Was it because he didn't try to block every single shot? Was it because he didn't rebound every single missed shot?

Let me pose a few questions. Have you ever been 7 ft 1 and 325 lbs? If so, have you ever played 41,918 minutes of NBA basketball? Because that's what he did. It's not as easy for a person of that stature to play all out as it is for someone that's 6'2 and 180lbs. It's a little harder on the body! Add in the fact that he took the most physical abuse (as per Phil and Tex) than any other player in history. It takes its toll. Now, I'm not sure, Brenice, what type of person you are. Do you participate in any sports? Or other athletic events? Me, personally, I'm into weight training and martial arts. I train with weights 3 days a week and MA 3 to 4. And I run on the 6th day. Our MA classes run about 2 hours on a good day. I weight train for about 1 hr 45 minutes. Now, I've been doing this for years, and I'm in pretty decent shape. But I can tell you that after about an hour of Kata and Bunkai, I CANNOT go 100% for another hour of sparring at 100%. Or vice versa. And I'm in very good shape. So to say someone is "lazy" just because YOU don't think he gave enough effort is a ridiculous statement! If you say it's because he took "games off", then I point to TD. He's been sitting out games for years. If you say it's because he "paced himself", I would ask you why- and I'd answer that it was because he didn't want to go into the playoffs less than 100%, and that strategy worked every time! And his RS production didn't suffer. If it's because YOU think he SHOULD have grabbed more boards or blocked more shots, well, that's on you. Only he knows if he underachieved. But just because someone didn't perform up to YOUR armchair standards doesn't say squat about the player. It says more about your standards! You think that the player that is near the top of the all time charts on most stats underachieved! That's pretty rich!
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#146 » by Brenice » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:35 pm

His laziness comes into play when Shaq would not be in shape for the season or aiming to be in shape after the season starts. Call it ridiculous all you want, but that was lazy. He did it more than once. He had flaws too. The both of them, not just Wilt.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#147 » by Brenice » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:43 pm

Wilt was a workout fanatic. Shaq was the opposite. Bottom line is Shaq was known for wanting to play his way into shape. Shaq did not reach his peak because of it. Wilt didn't reach his peak because for whatever reasons, he didn't want to hurt opponents, and wanted to please the media or whomever else that didn't matter that he was capable of leading the league in this or that.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#148 » by jaypo » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:55 pm

Again, I direct you to KAJ. He admittedly would come into camp 40 lbs overweight because he liked being heavy enough to "push people around". And he played his way into shape during the season. Go back to that quote by Phil Jackson where he said that no matter how heavy Shaq was in camp, he was always in game shape when it came time to start the season. Now, am I to believe you? Or the coach that was actually THERE?

I'm chuckling at Shaq not reaching his peak. You do realize that he was just voted as having the #2 peak all time, right? But because he didn't reach the peak that YOU set out for him, he was lazy. Right. You make a ton of sense!
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#149 » by Brenice » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:06 pm

First, I'm talking about after Shaq left the Lakers. Second, you can believe who you want. Everything is opinion on here. That's why you shouldn't be sensitive. Nobody is talking fact in comparisons. Nobody. I respect some of these stat-geeks in Realgm, but they don't speak fact either. I like Shaq's take-no-prisoners style. If they can't stop it, keep doing it. But after he went to Miami, he was not as dominant, and part of that was his not keeping control of his weight during the off-season.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#150 » by Brenice » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:10 pm

As for him being voted#2 peak, what would it have taken for him to reach #1? Remember, he is the biggest and strongest and most powerful.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#151 » by MacGill » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:20 pm

Brenice wrote:First, I'm talking about after Shaq left the Lakers. Second, you can believe who you want. Everything is opinion on here. That's why you shouldn't be sensitive. Nobody is talking fact in comparisons. Nobody. I respect some of these stat-geeks in Realgm, but they don't speak fact either. I like Shaq's take-no-prisoners style. If they can't stop it, keep doing it. But after he went to Miami, he was not as dominant, and part of that was his not keeping control of his weight during the off-season.


Can I just ask two questions?

1) Do you know what year Shaq was entering in his career when he joined Miami?

2) What is your tenure expectation for professional athlethes to remain in their prime/peak?
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#152 » by Shot Clock » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:21 pm

jaypo wrote:Well, since players were allowed to undercut opponents without a foul being called, I'd assume that the rules were a little more favorable! Since Wilt never fouled out of a game, I'd say the rules were a little more favorable. And since about 95% of the "offensive fouls" you whine about were because the refs fall for flopping, I'd say it would not be an issue!


I blame MacGill for tempting me into looking at this thread.

Now keep in mind I rank Shaq above Wilt. But the biggest problem I have with Shaq's impact is the following (I'm sure you will deny this to your grave)

Shaq came into the league when the league was struggling to find it's next group of superstars. You had a series of weak drafts with no true superstar talent. Where was the next crop to replace MJ, Hakeem, Barkley etc. The league had transitioned from a Lakers vs Celtics marketing theme during the 80's to a Magic vs MJ theme in the 90's. They were selling stars and had very little star power in the stable.

So they started letting Shaq get away with things that were always offensive fouls. He was given a get of of jail card to physically overpower his defender. This started the first wave of floppers who had nothing left to combat this style. Stand your ground and get run over for a dunk or flop and pray for a call.

I still think Shaq could have been an even better player if the league made him work for it. As a side note Wilt played more of a finesse offensive game.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#153 » by Brenice » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:23 pm

I know all that. But his ascension was dramatic. When he went to Miami, he still should have been Batman. He could have played Robin to Kobe if they would have gotten along.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#154 » by MacGill » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:38 pm

Brenice wrote:I know all that. But his ascension was dramatic. When he went to Miami, he still should have been Batman. He could have played Robin to Kobe if they would have gotten along.


Well that's kind of how it works when you are the size of a compact sports car ;). For comparison, I believe Wilt only played 13 years pro, Russell around the same and more modern off the top of my head KAJ/Hakeem are the only other 2 players at center to play as long as be as productive (someone correct me if my dates are off).

Shaq was still a very productive player in 05 & 06 but time, injuries certainly caught up and played a role. And let's not get into the whole LA topic because what is done is done but that has nothing to do with the points you are trying to make.

Most nba players careers come to end well before they'd even venture into Miami Shaq tenure in the league. That's pretty impressive to me.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#155 » by Raaccoonn » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:46 pm

I think its a fair argument to say that Shaq might have prolonged his dominance from the early 00's had he continued dedicating himself to fitness the way he did in 1998-2000 where he was really shredded physically and in amazing shape.

However Shaq still ended his career with a good 10-12 Super-Star level seasons.
Only Jordan, Kareem, Magic and Russell have a similar amount career wise.

In terms of All-Star level seasons or complete longevity Shaq is still up there with the very best.
Don't forget he started playing in 92/93.

O'neal was 2nd in MVP voting in 1995 and 2nd in MVP voting in 2005.
That is excellent longevity.

Also while Miami Shaq was not the same player he was in LAL (not after the 05 injury anyway) he was still one of the most impactful/valuable players in the league by my estimation in both years.

Still I think his playoff career value was arguably on par with even Jordan.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#156 » by MacGill » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:52 pm

I blame MacGill for tempting me into looking at this thread.


Welcome to the party :)

Shaq came into the league when the league was struggling to find it's next group of superstars. You had a series of weak drafts with no true superstar talent. Where was the next crop to replace MJ, Hakeem, Barkley etc. The league had transitioned from a Lakers vs Celtics marketing theme during the 80's to a Magic vs MJ theme in the 90's. They were selling stars and had very little star power in the stable.


Ok, so I think in hindsight we can state this but I don't put too much stock into this reasoning for the following reasons:

1) MJ was at his peak and many other stars were still ready to go at it. Malone, D-Rob, Ewing, Zo, Deke, Drexler, Lattener (I kid I kid) but you get the point. Hakeem was still strong, Bark's certainly can't say that was the lowest point we have seen.

So they started letting Shaq get away with things that were always offensive fouls. He was given a get of of jail card to physically overpower his defender. This started the first wave of floppers who had nothing left to combat this style. Stand your ground and get run over for a dunk or flop and pray for a call.


So no disrespect Shotclock, but this is simply wrong but something I hear about Shaq all too often. So let's start with the misception of the refs letting Shaq get away with anything. There was no one like him, who played the power game like him and coming in as an agile 300 pound rookie who could run the fast break like a pg, the league was unsure of how to call him.

There is no way I will state that he didn't get away with calls, he did, but not because the refs needed to let him go to build up his brand. First year Shaq was already being compared iconically to MJ and the video is on youtube. He was an instant star and did not need the refs help for that. He was just that powerful and it was hard for the league to tell what was Shaq and what was the players flopping.

How can we penalize Shaq if that is how strong he is versus is he intentionally causing unwanted contact. Now go back to his rookie measurments, played power back to the basket game like no one before him and tell me.

The flip side to this is how hard other players were allowed to abuse Shaq. Have you ever seen the licks this man took? It wasn't all one sided here but questionable calls which all stars get regardless of what they were doing is part of the game and shouldn't be used to take away from the skill he had at scoring in the post.

I still think Shaq could have been an even better player if the league made him work for it. As a side note Wilt played more of a finesse offensive game.


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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#157 » by jaypo » Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:02 pm

I'm not going to deny it because I think it is a enough of a ludicrous statement that I don't have to dignify it! You're saying Shaq "got away with things", and you mention Jordan, the king of the "superstar call". Ironic. If I'm not mistaken, Jordan still played in the league a bunch of seasons after Shaq was drafted. So that entire statement is pretty far fetched.

Next, Brenice, it's funny that you say that he wasn't as dominant after he went to Miami. Well, perspective- Wilt played 13 years TOTAL. Shaq went to Miami in his 13 the season! Was Wilt still the peak wilt in his 13th season? Nope. Of course he wasn't AS dominant as he was at his best. Yet, he was still 2nd in MVP voting that year (and was robbed of the award). And you're blaming it on him not keeping his weight under control that year? Now, I clearly know that you don't know what you're talking about. It is WELL documented that he was at his lightest since his Orlando years when he arrived in Miami. It was well documented that he met with Riley who urged him to lose weight and work on conditioning, and he did so. He reported to Miami around 320lbs. So you're 100% wrong!

FYI, after MJ went to the Wizards, he wasn't as dominant either!
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#158 » by Brenice » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:49 pm

I must be wrong Jaypo in stating that Shaq was in the best shape some seasons. He put in all the necessary work and never ballooned to a point where they lied about his weight.
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#159 » by rrravenred » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:54 pm

Worth noting that the no-charge zone was introduced in 1997, which arguably benefits Shaq-type players more than any other...
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Re: Wilt vs Shaq at their peaks 

Post#160 » by Brenice » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:54 pm

I must be wrong Jaypo in stating that Shaq was in the best shape some seasons. He put in all the necessary work and never ballooned to a point where they lied about his weight.

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