ImageImage

The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it)

Moderators: paulpressey25, MickeyDavis

User avatar
paulpressey25
Senior Mod - Bucks
Senior Mod - Bucks
Posts: 60,876
And1: 25,840
Joined: Oct 27, 2002
     

The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it) 

Post#1 » by paulpressey25 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:28 pm

Interesting article. Short excerpt below. h/t FAM from twitter.

http://behindthebuckpass.com/2012/11/09 ... ly-matter/

"..It’s always easy to pin the Bucks’ rebounding woes on Udoh. After all, while Udoh’s rebounding numbers are taking a disconcerting dive, Larry Sanders’ rebounding rates have been on the incline since he entered the league with Udoh in 2010. Sanders is averaging 11.5 rebounds per 36 minutes this year, after marks of 9.0 last season and 7.3 in his rookie campaign. His rebounding rate is up to an impressive 18.9 percent, trumping past rates of 13.7 and 11.9 in his last two seasons respectively.

Yet, here’s the paradox: While Udoh is seemingly allergic to basketballs once they graze the rim, his teams have always rebounded better with him on the court...."
In depth discussions here - shorter stuff on Twitter

https://twitter.com/paulpressey25
User avatar
cam2win
Veteran
Posts: 2,837
And1: 7
Joined: Feb 25, 2005
Location: Brew City
       

Re: The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it) 

Post#2 » by cam2win » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:32 pm

He will now be known around here as Ekpe Udohn't rebound.
jeremyd236
General Manager
Posts: 7,927
And1: 16
Joined: Jan 07, 2005
Location: Appleton, WI

Re: The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it) 

Post#3 » by jeremyd236 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:32 pm

Individual rebounding numbers are overrated, any anyone who has played basketball before knows this. Boxing out your guy is all that matters in regards to team rebounds.

Think about Bogut, that guy could've grabbed 15 rebounds per game if he wanted to. But by watching him and listening to a few interviews, he was concerned with boxing out. He did not care who grabbed the board.

I haven't seen enough of Udoh yet, but the stats appear to support the theory that he boxes out well and doesn't grab the rebound.
User avatar
raferfenix
RealGM
Posts: 22,825
And1: 3,520
Joined: Apr 05, 2003

Re: The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it) 

Post#4 » by raferfenix » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:38 pm

If his boxing out is part of what is making Larry Sanders so much more effective, then I can certainly live with his lack of rebounding.

Sanders' development is one of the most important priorities on this team in my mind.
User avatar
jr lucosa
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 12,048
And1: 1,151
Joined: Jul 11, 2008
       

Re: The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it) 

Post#5 » by jr lucosa » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:43 pm

It makes sense because of his box outs and stats like this are interesting, but you still need to consider individual situations. There's been times since we acquired him where a missed rebound or two from Udoh cost us the game, or a shot at a game winning situation.

Let's not act like this isn't still a problem, especially if we are considering giving this guy a contract past his current one.
User avatar
ampd
RealGM
Posts: 21,268
And1: 4,883
Joined: Dec 06, 2010

Re: The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it) 

Post#6 » by ampd » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:47 pm

Very good, balanced, well written article.

Clearly Udoh is doing something right while he is out there. He really does appear to be one of those guys who other than his blocks, does a lot of stuff that just isn't measured in the box score.

It would be nice if he was a bit better rebounder, but if his presence doesn't actually decrease the rebound rate of the team while he is out there, despite his own terrible rate, then its hard to argue he negatively affects the team by not collecting more rebounds.

Its hard to disagree with the writer that

it’s reasonable to think more than 0.6 rebounds would aimlessly fall into his lap, on average, in a 36-minute span. This number really defies any sort reasoning
User avatar
paulpressey25
Senior Mod - Bucks
Senior Mod - Bucks
Posts: 60,876
And1: 25,840
Joined: Oct 27, 2002
     

Re: The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it) 

Post#7 » by paulpressey25 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:48 pm

Larry Sanders grew a pair of hands this fall.

There is hope for Ekpe.
In depth discussions here - shorter stuff on Twitter

https://twitter.com/paulpressey25
User avatar
ampd
RealGM
Posts: 21,268
And1: 4,883
Joined: Dec 06, 2010

Re: The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it) 

Post#8 » by ampd » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:52 pm

raferfenix wrote:If his boxing out is part of what is making Larry Sanders so much more effective, then I can certainly live with his lack of rebounding.

Sanders' development is one of the most important priorities on this team in my mind.


If anything I would say his rebounding has helped Dunleavy this season more than anyone else, maybe even almost exclusively.

Dunleavy's DRR was 13% last year (career 14.9). This season so far it is 29.1%. He has almost doubled his TRR and literally doubled his per game average from 3.7 to 7.4. Small sample size, but if this theory is true, maybe he is just getting Ekpe's rebounds
User avatar
BUCKnation
RealGM
Posts: 17,121
And1: 2,890
Joined: Jun 15, 2011
       

Re: The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it) 

Post#9 » by BUCKnation » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:56 pm

Im going to have to watch closer when he comes in. I dont really notice the other team getting too many 2nd chances or him fumbling the ball away often enough to make it noticeable.
User avatar
emunney
RealGM
Posts: 60,039
And1: 36,432
Joined: Feb 22, 2005
Location: where takes go to be pampered

Re: The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it) 

Post#10 » by emunney » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:26 pm

Obviously you'd rather he were able to box out awesome AND catch awesome. If all other things stayed equal and he grew new, great hands overnight, he might immediately be our best overall player. That's both a comment on how solid he is all around and how confusingly bad his hands are on rebounds. Larry the past few years would have a lot of balls bounce off his hands, but Udoh has that AND outright misses a lot of balls. I think the coaching reaction to that has been to just let him hold his box out and rely on other guys to chase the ball.

That said, his team rebounding is good enough that you can have him out there and not get killed against most teams. If you went by his raw rebounding numbers, you'd conclude he's unplayable, but that's just not the case.
Here are more legal notices regarding the Posts
Sigra
RealGM
Posts: 15,160
And1: 1,221
Joined: Sep 08, 2005
Location: Sarajevo, Bosnia
     

Re: The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it) 

Post#11 » by Sigra » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:34 pm

I always loved players with intengibles. So I like Udoh and Moute maybe the most in this team.

We have frontcourt for years. And Jennings is PG solution when motivated. All we need are wing players who defend and hit 3 pointers and we are set.
User avatar
SkilesTheLimit
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,780
And1: 1,795
Joined: Oct 23, 2010
Location: Pop Up Zone
     

Re: The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it) 

Post#12 » by SkilesTheLimit » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:34 pm

It seems as though Udoh will end up being the odd man out here in a cluster of PF's. I think if we can find a taker for him and get someone back in return, it might be a good idea. Ersan got his cash so he's locked in for a few years and it seems like Sanders is grabbing the PF/C position. I like Henson's overall game better than Udoh so I think when it comes time, Udoh is a goner.
We're going to turn this team around 360 degrees.
- Jason Kidd
Sigra
RealGM
Posts: 15,160
And1: 1,221
Joined: Sep 08, 2005
Location: Sarajevo, Bosnia
     

Re: The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it) 

Post#13 » by Sigra » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:40 pm

SkilesTheLimit wrote:It seems as though Udoh will end up being the odd man out here in a cluster of PF's. I think if we can find a taker for him and get someone back in return, it might be a good idea. Ersan got his cash so he's locked in for a few years and it seems like Sanders is grabbing the PF/C position. I like Henson's overall game better than Udoh so I think when it comes time, Udoh is a goner.


I think that Ersan is odd man out when all is said and done. Sanders/Udoh at C and Henson/Moute at PF with anual Pryzbila kind of situational big is way to go IMO.

Hopefully we can pack Ersan with Ellis for wing who can defend and shoot.
User avatar
AussieBuck
RealGM
Posts: 41,650
And1: 19,674
Joined: May 10, 2006
Location: Bucks in 7?
 

Re: The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it) 

Post#14 » by AussieBuck » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:56 pm

Does this mean we are done judging Udoh on his boxscore?
emunney wrote:
We need a man shaped like a chicken nugget with the shot selection of a 21st birthday party.


GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
if you combined jabari parker, royal ivey, a shrimp and a ball sack youd have javon carter
User avatar
KeyRabbit
Rookie
Posts: 1,099
And1: 38
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
Location: DMV

Re: The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it) 

Post#15 » by KeyRabbit » Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:22 pm

ampd wrote:Clearly Udoh is doing something right while he is out there. He really does appear to be one of those guys who other than his blocks, does a lot of stuff that just isn't measured in the box score.


Skiles has noted a few times that Udoh is always in the right spot defensively, knows his assignments, etc., and I'm finally starting to see that after the Cs game. I love the Sanders/Udoh combo so far, and I attribute at least part of Larry's improvement to some of the things that Udoh does. Sanders is more the live wire who, given his length, can create havok all over the court at any given time. For both teams. Epke is more stabilizing, and the number of times he's been an effective help defender is starting to become really noticeable.

As long as the team rebounding and interior D are solid, I don't care about his stats at all. And he needs to keep shooting that intermediate J.
________________________________
Candy is Dandy, but Liquor is Quicker
User avatar
Badgerlander
RealGM
Posts: 26,398
And1: 6,970
Joined: Jun 29, 2007
     

Re: The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it) 

Post#16 » by Badgerlander » Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:41 pm

Love Udoh.

Udoh, Sanders, Henson, Harris, and Lamb have me excited for this teams future.
Shoot, Move, and Communicate...

Spoiler:

I'm just here for my own amusement,"don't take offense at my innuendo..."


Countless waze, we pass the daze...

A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.
MilBucksBackOnTop06
Banned User
Posts: 12,827
And1: 14
Joined: Nov 10, 2005

Re: The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it) 

Post#17 » by MilBucksBackOnTop06 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:08 pm

Who cares about his rebounding...right now?

AlI they should care about his scoring in the low post along with all our bigs to help Monta and Jennings out!
There is nothing worse for a guard to give the ball up to a big man in good scoring position and he juggles it or can't expand his game enough to find a way to finish around the basket or draw a foul.

If you are a good PG or playmaker you should be asking...wtf!? Why am I passing to him. They do not trust Larry even on some screen and pick and rolls to hit him when he rolls fearing he would drop it. It is the offense I am worried about not the defense.

The Bucks need to get to a point of full trust in their teammates to be able to deliver more often in the half court so the guards can get easier shots and prevent other teams from collapsing on them. That is why Monta and Jennings shooting pct is what it is. No easy shots...

We are not being outrebounded that much. That is not an issue...imo. Not yet anyways. That should be the least of our concerns. He boxs out well so someone else can rebound the ball like Ersan or Larry so it is ok.

If Udoh boxes out his man and sheilds or seals well and uses his wide body he does not have to rebound. The guards or other bigs can.

But it's the catch, gather and score around the basket and on post up situations so all the pressure is not on the guards to score!

Forget rebouding...for now. Hit some shots.
MilBucksBackOnTop06
Banned User
Posts: 12,827
And1: 14
Joined: Nov 10, 2005

Re: The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it) 

Post#18 » by MilBucksBackOnTop06 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:27 pm

DocHoliday wrote:Love Udoh.

Udoh, Sanders, Henson, Harris, and Lamb have me excited for this teams future.

Does it...oh really? :roll: Interesting. :-?

Then you are easily swayed and impressed. Remember you don't know what their ceilings are nor learning curves.
xTitan
RealGM
Posts: 17,132
And1: 2,279
Joined: Mar 03, 2006
     

Re: The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it) 

Post#19 » by xTitan » Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:48 pm

DocHoliday wrote:Love Udoh.

Udoh, Sanders, Henson, Harris, and Lamb have me excited for this teams future.


That excites you? Only Henson has a small chance at being a star, Sanders appears to have the potential to be better than I thought, but not a star. Players with major star potential excite me, none of which are on the Bucks it would appear.
NerdsterBuck
Junior
Posts: 254
And1: 8
Joined: Feb 11, 2010
Location: From Parts Unknown
         

Re: The dilemma of Udoh's rebounding (or lack of it) 

Post#20 » by NerdsterBuck » Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:53 pm

I have noticed that Udoh helps out a lot on the high screens. Maybe this is the reason of his lack of rebounds.

Return to Milwaukee Bucks