ImageImage

OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done

Moderators: paulpressey25, MickeyDavis

User avatar
paulpressey25
Senior Mod - Bucks
Senior Mod - Bucks
Posts: 60,878
And1: 25,845
Joined: Oct 27, 2002
     

Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done 

Post#221 » by paulpressey25 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:00 pm

ampd wrote:We are currently 5th.



Very early in the year. Long, long season to go.

But to date you are correct. This is the one piece a lot of people didn't figure on. They assumed that Bogut was the magic beans behind our defense that couldn't be replaced and/or that Skiles had gone off the deep end and was not capable of understanding how to have his teams defend.

Instead the team focused on adding defensive bigs who either can contribute situationally like Buddha or young active shotblockers with upside like Larry, Udoh and Henson. And it has worked so far.
In depth discussions here - shorter stuff on Twitter

https://twitter.com/paulpressey25
jeremyd236
General Manager
Posts: 7,927
And1: 16
Joined: Jan 07, 2005
Location: Appleton, WI

Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done 

Post#222 » by jeremyd236 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:11 pm

paulpressey25 wrote:
ampd wrote:We are currently 5th.



Very early in the year. Long, long season to go.

But to date you are correct. This is the one piece a lot of people didn't figure on. They assumed that Bogut was the magic beans behind our defense that couldn't be replaced and/or that Skiles had gone off the deep end and was not capable of understanding how to have his teams defend.

Instead the team focused on adding defensive bigs who either can contribute situationally like Buddha or young active shotblockers with upside like Larry, Udoh and Henson. And it has worked so far.


Bogut WAS the "magic beans" behind our defense. Larry, Udoh, and Henson are great defensive bigs, but none of them is individually as good as Bogut. You forget that while Bogut had LRMAM next to him, he also had to "cover up" for guys like Gooden and CV. Larry, Udoh, and Henson get to play alongside eachother.

Also, our defense simply isn't as good as it was under Bogut. It's not like Larry, Udoh, and Henson are replacing his defense. Of course, our offensive is better and we play a quicker pace, which also had to be considered.
User avatar
ampd
RealGM
Posts: 21,268
And1: 4,883
Joined: Dec 06, 2010

Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done 

Post#223 » by ampd » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:12 pm

Even last season we were only as bad as GSW has been with Monta when we played Gooden at C.
jeremyd236
General Manager
Posts: 7,927
And1: 16
Joined: Jan 07, 2005
Location: Appleton, WI

Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done 

Post#224 » by jeremyd236 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:13 pm

Rockmaninoff wrote:Going forward, would you guys rather have Ellis or Redick? Neither is obviously an option, but if you had to choose, which would it be. Keep in mind that Redick is in the final year of his contract, and will likely get more than the MLE on his next deal.


It's posts like this that make me sick. Has the Ellis hate seriously reached the point to where we're debating between him and Reddick? Do you honestly believe the Bucks are a better team if you just eliminate Monta from our roster? Has it really come to that? Wow.
User avatar
ampd
RealGM
Posts: 21,268
And1: 4,883
Joined: Dec 06, 2010

Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done 

Post#225 » by ampd » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:24 pm

jeremyd236 wrote:
Rockmaninoff wrote:Going forward, would you guys rather have Ellis or Redick? Neither is obviously an option, but if you had to choose, which would it be. Keep in mind that Redick is in the final year of his contract, and will likely get more than the MLE on his next deal.


It's posts like this that make me sick. Has the Ellis hate seriously reached the point to where we're debating between him and Reddick? Do you honestly believe the Bucks are a better team if you just eliminate Monta from our roster? Has it really come to that? Wow.


Reddick would be someone who could replace Dunleavy as our bench shooter, but I don't want him as a starting SG.
jeremyd236
General Manager
Posts: 7,927
And1: 16
Joined: Jan 07, 2005
Location: Appleton, WI

Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done 

Post#226 » by jeremyd236 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:40 pm

ampd wrote:
jeremyd236 wrote:
Rockmaninoff wrote:Going forward, would you guys rather have Ellis or Redick? Neither is obviously an option, but if you had to choose, which would it be. Keep in mind that Redick is in the final year of his contract, and will likely get more than the MLE on his next deal.


It's posts like this that make me sick. Has the Ellis hate seriously reached the point to where we're debating between him and Reddick? Do you honestly believe the Bucks are a better team if you just eliminate Monta from our roster? Has it really come to that? Wow.


Reddick would be someone who could replace Dunleavy as our bench shooter, but I don't want him as a starting SG.


I agree. It makes sense to compare Dunleavy and Redick. But Ellis and Redick?
User avatar
ComeBackRay34
Sophomore
Posts: 218
And1: 10
Joined: Jun 10, 2009
Location: 9th seed hell

Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done 

Post#227 » by ComeBackRay34 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:21 pm

In the end, I think the Bogut-Ellis trade will be an even trade, but disappointing for the Bucks because they could have traded Bogut for something centered around either a youth/rebuild movement or a long-term player who fits better next to Jennings. The Bucks success of the trade will come from salary-relief and possibly one playoff run. I don't think Ellis stays past this year (hope he doesn't stay longer), and in the end, I think Udoh's impact will be minimal due to the amount of other PF's we have. On another team, who needed frontcourt help, he would have a bigger impact. Warriors got a center who can improve defense in any games he CAN play in and I think Barnes is a plus that came from that trade as well.

At this point, I think Ellis hasn’t impacted the Bucks too much so far as changing where we stand in the East. We should be a playoff team based on the fact that the East is pretty poorsome. This year will show if he makes this team better as far as record goes. Because so far, this is the Bucks record with Ellis against winning/losing teams.

2011-2012: Winning Teams= 1-8 Losing Teams= 11-1 Total=12-9 (Didn't play in 2 final losses against Phi/Bos)
2012-2013: Winning Teams= 2-2 Losing Teams= 3-0 Total=5-2
Total Record with Ellis: 17-11 (14-1 against losing teams. Milwaukee: We can't say that we're better than most, we're just not as bad as some)

For him to have a significant impact, I think the Bucks have to prove this year that they can beat good teams as well as bad teams. I think that how we play against teams from the West will be a good determinant for the Bucks this year. If we can’t beat the good teams, we looking to be slightly better than .500 with the same direction we had before the trade. And I think the direction (or lack-there-of) the Bucks took in the Bogut-Ellis trade still has me more upset than Ellis himself (although watching Ellis play at times can be maddening).
"Monta Ellis have it all" ~ from the Great One who's only difference from Wade is winning games, an all-star appearance, two championship rings, and two gold medals.
User avatar
ampd
RealGM
Posts: 21,268
And1: 4,883
Joined: Dec 06, 2010

Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done 

Post#228 » by ampd » Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:59 pm

Last season's record against above .500 teams was with Gooden starting at C. If there is a reason for long term optimism with this model, its that we are no longer doing that plus the emergence of Larry Sanders.

I also don't see it as a bad thing or even a bad sign that we have obliterated the under .500 teams we have played. I can accept that we are a middling team if there is a path to improvement in place. With us I think there is, between Jennings, Harris, Henson, Sanders, Udoh, Lamb.
User avatar
Rockmaninoff
General Manager
Posts: 7,650
And1: 1,667
Joined: Jan 11, 2008
   

Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done 

Post#229 » by Rockmaninoff » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:20 pm

jeremyd236 wrote:
ampd wrote:
jeremyd236 wrote:
It's posts like this that make me sick. Has the Ellis hate seriously reached the point to where we're debating between him and Reddick? Do you honestly believe the Bucks are a better team if you just eliminate Monta from our roster? Has it really come to that? Wow.


Reddick would be someone who could replace Dunleavy as our bench shooter, but I don't want him as a starting SG.


I agree. It makes sense to compare Dunleavy and Redick. But Ellis and Redick?


:lol:

Why would it make you sick? I never clearly advocated for either player and I never said anything directly disparaging about Ellis. I don't consider comparing Ellis to Redick as being an insult to Ellis.

You obviously didn't click the link. If you had, you would see that Redick is getting starter minutes. In starter minutes, Redick has a .613 TS and he has similar assist rates to Ellis. Both players have the same defensive weaknesses. Ellis is higher usage, gets to the line a little more, and is a slightly better ball thief.

I wouldn't compare Dunleavy to Redick, because you are what you can (or theoretically should be able to) defend. Dunleavy isn't a SG, at all, IMO. Ellis and Redick are, and they have similar defense weaknesses, some offensive similarities, and some offensive disparities.
MilBucksBackOnTop06 wrote:The fight for civil rights just like for liberty and justice and peace won't be won by man. It will take a god...so lets move on to sports.

Magic Giannison wrote:Giannis is god but even god's cannot save our **** team.
jeremyd236
General Manager
Posts: 7,927
And1: 16
Joined: Jan 07, 2005
Location: Appleton, WI

Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done 

Post#230 » by jeremyd236 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:39 pm

Rockmaninoff wrote: :lol:

Why would it make you sick? I never clearly advocated for either player and I never said anything directly disparaging about Ellis. I don't consider comparing Ellis to Redick as being an insult to Ellis.

You obviously didn't click the link. If you had, you would see that Redick is getting starter minutes. In starter minutes, Redick has a .613 TS and he has similar assist rates to Ellis. Both players have the same defensive weaknesses. Ellis is higher usage, gets to the line a little more, and is a slightly better ball thief.

I wouldn't compare Dunleavy to Redick, because you are what you can (or theoretically should be able to) defend. Dunleavy isn't a SG, at all, IMO. Ellis and Redick are, and they have similar defense weaknesses, some offensive similarities, and some offensive disparities.


You implied that we'd rather have "neither". Reread your post.

You seem to be obsessed with the stats of it all, but do you actually watch a game? Ellis is 3x the player Redick is, and that's not going to show up on your TS. Ellis can actually penetrate, drive, and dish. Which he does. Ellis is responsible for our fast pace, which is winning us games. The fact that you're bringing up statistics to compare Ellis to Redick of all players shows you really don't understand it. Dunleavy should be compared to Redick because they bring the same exact thing to the game. It's not about position.
User avatar
ampd
RealGM
Posts: 21,268
And1: 4,883
Joined: Dec 06, 2010

Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done 

Post#231 » by ampd » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:42 pm

Rockmaninoff wrote:I wouldn't compare Dunleavy to Redick, because you are what you can (or theoretically should be able to) defend. Dunleavy isn't a SG, at all, IMO. Ellis and Redick are, and they have similar defense weaknesses, some offensive similarities, and some offensive disparities.


Dunleavy and Redick are comparable because they are both best used in the same role (and even in the same plays). They have similar offensive strengths and defensive weaknesses. You can run Redick off the same curls and screens you run Dunleavy off. Dunleavy could play the 2 ok earlier in his career but probably not anymore, but thats not really relevant to my point.

Ellis would probably be best used off the bench too, but thats really where the similarities end. His game is based off athleticism, he needs the ball in his hands, he isn't nearly as effective in the catch and shoot, he is vastly superior to Redick in terms of steals, and his game is best suited for a high tempo team that can use his speed on leak outs and in transition. Redick is a half court shooter, Monta is best as a pick and roll ball handler / slasher.
User avatar
Rockmaninoff
General Manager
Posts: 7,650
And1: 1,667
Joined: Jan 11, 2008
   

Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done 

Post#232 » by Rockmaninoff » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:05 pm

jeremyd236 wrote:
Rockmaninoff wrote: :lol:

Why would it make you sick? I never clearly advocated for either player and I never said anything directly disparaging about Ellis. I don't consider comparing Ellis to Redick as being an insult to Ellis.

You obviously didn't click the link. If you had, you would see that Redick is getting starter minutes. In starter minutes, Redick has a .613 TS and he has similar assist rates to Ellis. Both players have the same defensive weaknesses. Ellis is higher usage, gets to the line a little more, and is a slightly better ball thief.

I wouldn't compare Dunleavy to Redick, because you are what you can (or theoretically should be able to) defend. Dunleavy isn't a SG, at all, IMO. Ellis and Redick are, and they have similar defense weaknesses, some offensive similarities, and some offensive disparities.


You implied that we'd rather have "neither". Reread your post.

You seem to be obsessed with the stats of it all, but do you actually watch a game? Ellis is 3x the player Redick is, and that's not going to show up on your TS. Ellis can actually penetrate, drive, and dish. Which he does. Ellis is responsible for our fast pace, which is winning us games. The fact that you're bringing up statistics to compare Ellis to Redick of all players shows you really don't understand it. Dunleavy should be compared to Redick because they bring the same exact thing to the game. It's not about position.


I said that 'neither is obviously an option'. That was more saying that answering neither was worthless to the question I was asking. Your interpretation of all of this is saying more about you than it is about me. I've acknowledged that Ellis has warts to his game, but I haven't been overtly negative about him. I was excited to get him because of his passing ability, his ability to get to the rim, and I thought he could refine his game in Milwaukee and improve on those things. I think you are confusing me with someone else.

I haven't watched any of Redick this season, but I'm assuming he isn't getting all of his assist off hitting cutters? I realize that they are stylistically different players. Ellis is obviously a better athlete. Maybe I just see the game differently and see some different connections? I was really just seeking a 'I would rather have Ellis (or Redick) because...'

Anyway, sorry to bother you.
MilBucksBackOnTop06 wrote:The fight for civil rights just like for liberty and justice and peace won't be won by man. It will take a god...so lets move on to sports.

Magic Giannison wrote:Giannis is god but even god's cannot save our **** team.
gbmb34
Pro Prospect
Posts: 862
And1: 75
Joined: Dec 01, 2009
       

Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done 

Post#233 » by gbmb34 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:05 pm

Baddy Chuck wrote:
El Duderino wrote:So while of course the Bucks won't ever have a chance to be 50 plus win/top 3-4 seed in the East with a Monta/Jennings backcourt, i have found myself being surprisingly entertained by this team so far and with decent health this year, i do see the Bucks ended up being a better and more fun to watch team than i expected.

We're Golden State East. We're probably going to put up a fun and probably rather successful season (compared to our last few), but the sustainability just won't be there. That's my biggest thing. As you said, I think resigning Monta and continuing this experiment would be a mistake and as thankful as I am, I don't think Monta would want to even stay here unless we make him an offer he couldn't refuse. That means either we are going to completely waste an asset like Monta for (likely) one playoff appearance, or be stuck with him and consequently a much harder path to move forward as a team.


Disagree that we are Golden State west.

Our bigs are much better than there ever were and the Bucks have some quality defenders to go with the swag backcourt.
packerbreakdown.wordpress.com
User avatar
AussieBuck
RealGM
Posts: 41,650
And1: 19,674
Joined: May 10, 2006
Location: Bucks in 7?
 

Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done 

Post#234 » by AussieBuck » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:30 pm

Redick is a better defender than Ellis. Monta has him for iso D and he gets more steals but Redick does the rest much better from what I've seen. He's still carrying his defensive rep from college and it really isn't warranted.
emunney wrote:
We need a man shaped like a chicken nugget with the shot selection of a 21st birthday party.


GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:
if you combined jabari parker, royal ivey, a shrimp and a ball sack youd have javon carter
User avatar
Baddy Chuck
RealGM
Posts: 49,549
And1: 22,615
Joined: Apr 18, 2006
 

Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done 

Post#235 » by Baddy Chuck » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:42 pm

Redick is also going to get somewhere like 4/$25 where as Monta is likely to get somewhere in the range of 4/$50.
John Henson wrote:This lady just asked me who I play for and I said the Milwaukee Bucks, she quickly replied “oh the highschool across the street?”
Bucksfans1and2
Banned User
Posts: 16,041
And1: 189
Joined: Jun 28, 2008

Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done 

Post#236 » by Bucksfans1and2 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:17 am

randy84 wrote:
LUKE23 wrote:
randy84 wrote:
On a team, players have roles. Their value should be based on how well they fill those roles.


This is where you are wrong and have been for some time. Like saying the "PF has to post up". Not true. In fact, if your C is a post up player you'd rather have a floor spacer next to him. But efficiency ALWAYS matters. The most amount of points in the least amount of possessions is the goal. The Bucks aren't winning with O right now anyway, more because of their D.


Efficiency doesn't matter as long as you outscore your opponent. The goal is to score more points than your opponent, not be efficient. You could be a hugely inefficient shooting team and still win games if you have a great defense.

It also somewhat ironic that you are propping the Bucks defense since you said they would have a bottom of the league defense this year.


Yes, you can win games with an inefficient offense and a great defense. The counter argument is that you win way more with an efficient offense and a great defense.

Anyone saying the Bucks would be awful defensively was assuming that we would be treated to the Drew Gooden show. Gooden has remained parked on the bench and Sanders (who Luke (and I)) thought would be a force defensively. We were both correct. You can go back and find posts by both of us saying that this team wins ten more games with Sanders getting Gooden's minutes, and there's a chance that we're totally correct. That's not a winning point in your argument.
GHOSTofSIKMA
RealGM
Posts: 21,629
And1: 7,929
Joined: Jan 21, 2007
Location: NC
     

Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done 

Post#237 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:37 am

redick needs to be our target A in free agency.
User avatar
LUKE23
RealGM
Posts: 72,264
And1: 6,213
Joined: May 26, 2005
Location: Stunville
       

Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done 

Post#238 » by LUKE23 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:43 am

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:redick needs to be our target A in free agency.


No.
User avatar
Baddy Chuck
RealGM
Posts: 49,549
And1: 22,615
Joined: Apr 18, 2006
 

Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done 

Post#239 » by Baddy Chuck » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:47 am

We'll need to replace Dunleavy somehow if we can't sign him. Korver and Redick are options.
John Henson wrote:This lady just asked me who I play for and I said the Milwaukee Bucks, she quickly replied “oh the highschool across the street?”
User avatar
Lippo
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,926
And1: 943
Joined: Jun 15, 2006

Re: OT: Barkley Says Bogut Done 

Post#240 » by Lippo » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:55 am

paulpressey25 wrote:
JayMKE wrote:If this trade was 'making out like bandits' then I don't even want to see what you guys think would be a bad trade.


Take a look at Brad Millers stats since the start of the 2006 season.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/556/brad-miller

This may be the type of player Bogut now has become for the second half of his career. Do you want to be paying $13 and $14 million a year for that?

Or would you rather get out from underneath $37 million in contracts (Bogut and Jackson) while adding Udoh and Monta?

If Bogut turns it around with the special German Orthokine lube job on his ankle, then great. But if he doesn't then I think I might rather take a hopefully healthy and younger Udoh by himself over a health unreliable 2012 version of Bogut.

Until people can wrap their heads around the fact that we didn't trade the younger, healthier 2010 FTD version of Bogut, I realize this trade will still be problematic for some.



Hey PP , I was torn apart for that comparison 4 years ago in my post...prophet i am...
viewtopic.php?t=827445

Return to Milwaukee Bucks