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Hornets/Bucks Postgame

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Re: Hornets/Bucks Postgame 

Post#81 » by coolhandluke121 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:52 pm

It's a pretty well-known fact that the correlation between blocked shots and team defense is surprisingly weak, and it's because a lot of prolific shot-blockers are either over-aggressive in leaving their man and/or leaving their feet, and also because a lot of them are the long, lean, wiry type who can block a lot of shots with their help defense but also have trouble holding defensive position in their one-on-one matchups against strong post players. I love what Larry has been doing, but count me squarely in the camp that thinks there's plenty of room for improvement. I tend to value guys like Udoh just as much, if not more, than guys like Sanders when it comes to defense.
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Re: Hornets/Bucks Postgame 

Post#82 » by jeremyd236 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:55 pm

coolhandluke121 wrote:It's a pretty well-known fact that the correlation between blocked shots and team defense is surprisingly weak, and it's because a lot of prolific shot-blockers are either over-aggressive in leaving their man and/or leaving their feet, and also because a lot of them are the long, lean, wiry type who can block a lot of shots with their help defense but also have trouble holding defensive position in their one-on-one matchups against strong post players. I love what Larry has been doing, but count me squarely in the camp that thinks there's plenty of room for improvement. I tend to value guys like Udoh just as much, if not more, than guys like Sanders when it comes to defense.


This is what I'm trying to get at. Great blocks are what fans remember, but it has little meaning when talking about good defense. I'd much rather have a well contested shot, missed FG, and a defensive rebound.

"help defense" does NOT mean you have to leave your feet, and it certainly does not mean you do it every single time you think you can get a block. Flying down the lane and slapping the backboard for the sake of help defense can have negative consequences, as evidenced several times last night.

Larry needs to improve on his decision making regarding not only when to provide help defense, but when to stay down and not go for the block.
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Re: Hornets/Bucks Postgame 

Post#83 » by ampd » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:59 pm

Of course Larry can get better, but again if any of that were actually a huge problem for our team (at least so far this season), we would not be the best team in the NBA at defensive rebounding and at opponent's points in the paint.

Literally every single team stat going back to mid last season says we are better with Larry on the floor in all the categories that should be worse if either of you are right.
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Re: Hornets/Bucks Postgame 

Post#84 » by AussieBuck » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:14 pm

There were definitely two blocks in the 4th that Larry went for that he wasn't going to alter and was never going to block that led to putbacks.
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Re: Hornets/Bucks Postgame 

Post#85 » by Garbs_7 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:18 pm

So if he keeps playing well and we keep winning, Jennings is a decent shot for the ASG. Do we want him to be voted in though knowing that having the all star tag is guaranteed to cost us more money in the offseason. On the other hand if he misses out again he might go into a slump again like after last all star break... Thoughts?
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Re: Hornets/Bucks Postgame 

Post#86 » by AussieBuck » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:22 pm

Garbs_7 wrote:So if he keeps playing well and we keep winning, Jennings is a decent shot for the ASG. Do we want him to be voted in though knowing that having the all star tag is guaranteed to cost us more money in the offseason. On the other hand if he misses out again he might go into a slump again like after last all star break... Thoughts?

The extra calls that come with it would be nice but it would have to earn him a extra million. I'd rather he be delayed a year.
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Re: Hornets/Bucks Postgame 

Post#87 » by ampd » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:23 pm

AussieBuck wrote:There were definitely two blocks in the 4th that Larry went for that he wasn't going to alter and was never going to block that led to putbacks.


Of course, but that happens to literally every center in the NBA. It happened to Bogut while he was here too. Larry is young, he is going to make some mistakes. As long as the positive outweighs the negative, which so far it massively has, including in last night's game, I'm fine with it. I expect that Skiles will point out areas of potential improvement to Larry, but to me its quite obviously not a major issue that is hurting the team.

Who cares if there is a weak correlation between blocked shots and team defense if the players we have that block shots are positively affecting team defense AND rebounding, and by any examination of the box score / game film its obvious?
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Re: Hornets/Bucks Postgame 

Post#88 » by AussieBuck » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:38 pm

ampd wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:There were definitely two blocks in the 4th that Larry went for that he wasn't going to alter and was never going to block that led to putbacks.


Of course, but that happens to literally every center in the NBA. It happened to Bogut while he was here too. Larry is young, he is going to make some mistakes. As long as the positive outweighs the negative, which so far it massively has, including in last night's game, I'm fine with it. I expect that Skiles will point out areas of potential improvement to Larry, but to me its quite obviously not a major issue that is hurting the team.

Who cares if there is a weak correlation between blocked shots and team defense if the players we have that block shots are positively affecting team defense AND rebounding, and by any examination of the box score / game film its obvious?

I only mentioned it because they were ridiculous attempts. I'm not really bothered by it, his D was still very good and I'm sure someone will show him the tape of it so he tones it down a little on shots that have already been released before he jumps.
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Re: Hornets/Bucks Postgame 

Post#89 » by BUCKnation » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:49 pm

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So true.

Used wrong meme tho...
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Re: Hornets/Bucks Postgame 

Post#90 » by Turd Ferguson » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:51 pm

AussieBuck wrote:There were definitely two blocks in the 4th that Larry went for that he wasn't going to alter and was never going to block that led to putbacks.


I think with his mentality, when he goes for some of those blocks that just aren't going to happen, he does have enough of an intimidating presence already that he will alter a number of shots, but I agree - him leaving his feet on those tends to give the advantage to the other team's offense in terms of rebounding a miss while our guys are going to be out of position/not boxing out as well as they should.

The two last night were pretty bad, and it's gonna be a while (if ever) before he finds a way to be more disciplined with his block attempts and defense in general. But with the room for improvement (that's very realistic) he's got combined with the level he's playing at eight games into the season? Very, very encouraging so far. And seeing Dally and Pryz (especially Dally as of late) taking it upon themselves to really mentor and drop little tidbits of info on Sanders during timeouts and between dead balls is promising for his development as well.
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Re: Hornets/Bucks Postgame 

Post#91 » by Baddy Chuck » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:01 pm

AussieBuck wrote:There were definitely two blocks in the 4th that Larry went for that he wasn't going to alter and was never going to block that led to putbacks.

Weren't both of them Anthony Davis who wasn't even Larry's guy though?
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Re: Hornets/Bucks Postgame 

Post#92 » by BUCKnation » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:21 pm

Baddy Chuck wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:There were definitely two blocks in the 4th that Larry went for that he wasn't going to alter and was never going to block that led to putbacks.

Weren't both of them Anthony Davis who wasn't even Larry's guy though?

Anderson. Same thing though.
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Re: Hornets/Bucks Postgame 

Post#93 » by skones » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:26 pm

upnorthfan wrote:The whole game I was thinking Dunleavy in how he kept us in it, so I am staying with him.

Question: My son just moved to Milwaukee, and he has satelite TV. He said he couldn't get the game last night. How can he start getting the game? He lives in St Francis.


I could always cut him a deal with ATT Uverse.
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Re: Hornets/Bucks Postgame 

Post#94 » by RiotPunch » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:29 pm

This was an awesome game to be at. The BC was as loud as I've heard it in a long time, and the brand of basketball we played was very fun to watch.
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Re: Hornets/Bucks Postgame 

Post#95 » by Max Green » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:37 pm

I remember those plays, what happened was it looked like Udoh was beat on the play, forcing Larry to step up and help except Udoh was able to recover and both Udoh and Sanders ended up being caught in the air going for the block and whoever Sanders man was would get the rebound and either tip it in or get a quick dunk.
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Re: Hornets/Bucks Postgame 

Post#96 » by SpursNBucks » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:38 pm

coolhandluke121 wrote:It's a pretty well-known fact that the correlation between blocked shots and team defense is surprisingly weak, and it's because a lot of prolific shot-blockers are either over-aggressive in leaving their man and/or leaving their feet, and also because a lot of them are the long, lean, wiry type who can block a lot of shots with their help defense but also have trouble holding defensive position in their one-on-one matchups against strong post players. I love what Larry has been doing, but count me squarely in the camp that thinks there's plenty of room for improvement. I tend to value guys like Udoh just as much, if not more, than guys like Sanders when it comes to defense.


Good point- I watched the second half again with just analyzing Sanders and Udoh:

Sanders Positives- obviously one of the best shot blockers in the NBA. What some people might not get is even when he isn't blocking shots he intimidates opposing offenses from taking it to the rim and alters shots when they do try. Negatives- unless he slams the ball in close he can be a big liability offense - missed several of those in this game. He's hard to watch at the free throw line. Also, (to the point above) the blocks come at a price- not boxing out or getting caught too far out of position on defense too often. That said, I love the guy's game right now and I think the positives outweigh the negatives - but they do come at a price.

Udoh positives- Really understands positioning. When he doesn't get a rebound his boxing out causes the players around him (like Sanders) to get the rebound. He also blocks shots at a high rate -I believe last year he was in the top 5 or 10 /minute blocks. He has a little offensive game inside and good hands- good free throw shooter. Negatives-Can get a little flat footed at times-isn't the quickest athlete. Will get criticized by box score watchers for not getting more rebounds/minute. He hasn't developed the offensive game some thought he could when he entered the NBA.
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Re: Hornets/Bucks Postgame 

Post#97 » by ampd » Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:07 pm

SpursNBucks wrote:Also, (to the point above) the blocks come at a price- not boxing out or getting caught too far out of position on defense too often.


You guys are still way overstating this. It comes at the "price" of being the best defensive rebounding team in the NBA. :rolleyes:
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Re: Hornets/Bucks Postgame 

Post#98 » by jeremyd236 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:47 pm

ampd wrote:
SpursNBucks wrote:Also, (to the point above) the blocks come at a price- not boxing out or getting caught too far out of position on defense too often.


You guys are still way overstating this. It comes at the "price" of being the best defensive rebounding team in the NBA. :rolleyes:


This logic makes absolutely no sense. We're the best defensive rebounding team in the league, so it doesn't matter that Sanders goes for blocks he can't get, only to leave guys wide open for buckets in the fourth quarter?

With that mindset, no team in the league would try to improve on anything they're one of the best at. I just rewatched the fourth quarter too. He had one in transition he tried to block from behind and had no chance of getting (didn't box out Davis, put-back dunk), and two with Anderson he should have boxed out. That's 3 buckets in the fourth quarter. But of course, it doesn't matter because we won right?

The point isn't that he sucks or anything like that - it's just not blindly saying we're the best rebounding team so who cares if he doesn't box his guy out. That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Help defense does not equate to flying out there and slapping the backboard every single time a guy gets close to the lane, and it's something he should improve on whether we're first or last in the league in rebounding.
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Re: Hornets/Bucks Postgame 

Post#99 » by LUKE23 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:56 pm

ampd wrote:You guys are still way overstating this. It comes at the "price" of being the best defensive rebounding team in the NBA. :rolleyes:


Yep. No idea what some people are talking about.
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Re: Hornets/Bucks Postgame 

Post#100 » by SpursNBucks » Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:15 pm

jeremyd236 wrote:
ampd wrote:
SpursNBucks wrote:Also, (to the point above) the blocks come at a price- not boxing out or getting caught too far out of position on defense too often.


You guys are still way overstating this. It comes at the "price" of being the best defensive rebounding team in the NBA. :rolleyes:


This logic makes absolutely no sense. We're the best defensive rebounding team in the league, so it doesn't matter that Sanders goes for blocks he can't get, only to leave guys wide open for buckets in the fourth quarter?

With that mindset, no team in the league would try to improve on anything they're one of the best at. I just rewatched the fourth quarter too. He had one in transition he tried to block from behind and had no chance of getting (didn't box out Davis, put-back dunk), and two with Anderson he should have boxed out. That's 3 buckets in the fourth quarter. But of course, it doesn't matter because we won right?

The point isn't that he sucks or anything like that - it's just not blindly saying we're the best rebounding team so who cares if he doesn't box his guy out. That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Help defense does not equate to flying out there and slapping the backboard every single time a guy gets close to the lane, and it's something he should improve on whether we're first or last in the league in rebounding.


I was going to respond, but not much more to add. To say Larry doesn't need to improve some parts of his defensive game because of the team's currently is tops in defensive rebounding is kind of ......

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