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David Lee

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Re: David Lee 

Post#41 » by GONYK » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:40 am

BernardKing wrote:
GONYK wrote:Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding.


:lol:
Defensive rebounding is part of overall team defense. A defensive stop is typically completed with a defensive rebound.


Doesn't make those who are good at it good defenders

I ask this to anyone: Are Kevin Love, David Lee, Zach Randolph great defenders? Nope.

Is Tyson Chandler a bad defender because he doesn't average as many rebounds as those guys?

Just because you can rebound the miss doesn't mean you can make your opponent miss.
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Re: David Lee 

Post#42 » by BernardKing » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:08 am

GONYK wrote:
BernardKing wrote:
GONYK wrote:Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding.


:lol:
Defensive rebounding is part of overall team defense. A defensive stop is typically completed with a defensive rebound.


Doesn't make those who are good at it good defenders

I ask this to anyone: Are Kevin Love, David Lee, Zach Randolph great defenders? Nope.

Is Tyson Chandler a bad defender because he doesn't average as many rebounds as those guys?

Just because you can rebound the miss doesn't mean you can make your opponent miss.


The point you're trying to convey is obvious, but what you originally said was a blanket statement: "Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding." That's incorrect. The message that coaches drill into players is the opposite of that. Coaches routinely preach that the defensive possession doesn't end just because the shot goes up.
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Re: David Lee 

Post#43 » by GONYK » Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:50 pm

BernardKing wrote:
The point you're trying to convey is obvious, but what you originally said was a blanket statement: "Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding." That's incorrect. The message that coaches drill into players is the opposite of that. Coaches routinely preach that the defensive possession doesn't end just because the shot goes up.


Obviously the rebound caps a defensive possession, but that, in and of itself, doesn't make it defense. It is still rebounding.

It is the proverbial cherry on top of the ice cream that is defense.

We aren't a bad defensive team because we have rebounding issues.

We are a great defensive team who needs to improve our rebounding. It is it's own aspect that is related to defense, but ultimately tangential from it.
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Re: David Lee 

Post#44 » by NewEra » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:08 pm

Huge fan of Amare, but If you can trade him you do it. He's injury prone. Yes, I'd do it for Lee.

The second part of that deal is hilarious.
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Re: David Lee 

Post#45 » by NewEra » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:13 pm

Neither Lee or Amare plays defense. Both can give you 20/10 on any given night. Lee though is more servicable where as Amare's knees aren't something I'm confident about. 742 would be the happiest mod ever, and I'm sure Novak wouldn't mind having another white guy around.
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Re: David Lee 

Post#46 » by DLTGWH » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:28 pm

DavidLeeTheGreatWhiteHope

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Re: David Lee 

Post#47 » by BernardKing » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:44 pm

GONYK wrote:Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding.


I just got the text response back from my brother in law's brother (a member of the New Jersey Basketball Coaches Hall of Fame).

My text to him: "What would you say to someone who says the following: Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding."

His response: "if you're giving up second opportunities because you're out of position after altering the shot attempt, then the team defensive trip is unsuccessful, so I'd say that statement is wrong. Were they discussing offensive rebounding?"

LOL
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Re: David Lee 

Post#48 » by GONYK » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:48 pm

BernardKing wrote:
GONYK wrote:Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding.


I just got the text response back from my brother in law's brother (a member of the New Jersey Basketball Coaches Hall of Fame).

My text to him: "What would you say to someone who says the following: Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding."

His response: "if you're giving up second opportunities because you're out of position after altering the shot attempt, then the team defensive trip is unsuccessful, so I'd say that statement is wrong. Were they discussing offensive rebounding?"

LOL


You're missing the point and I'm not sure what you are trying to prove.

David Lee isn't a better defender than Amare because he is a better rebounder. The same way Carmelo isn't a better defender than Lebron because he averages more rebounds

Rebounding, in relation to evaluating an individual player, is not defense. It is simply rebounding.

If you think otherwise, then you are wrong.

On top of that, teams can be good rebounding teams without being good defensive teams.

Milwaukee has the best defensive rebound rate in the league, and they are not even in the top 10 in the league in defensive efficiency.

Hell, Denver leads the league in rebounds, and they aren't even a top 20 defensive team in the league.

By comparison, the Knicks have the 15th defensive rebound rate in the league, and we're a top 5 defense.

So in essence, rebounding is related to team defense simply because it caps the defensive possession. It, in and of itself, is not defense.
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Re: David Lee 

Post#49 » by BernardKing » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:34 pm

GONYK wrote:
BernardKing wrote:
GONYK wrote:Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding.


I just got the text response back from my brother in law's brother (a member of the New Jersey Basketball Coaches Hall of Fame).

My text to him: "What would you say to someone who says the following: Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding."

His response: "if you're giving up second opportunities because you're out of position after altering the shot attempt, then the team defensive trip is unsuccessful, so I'd say that statement is wrong. Were they discussing offensive rebounding?"

LOL


You're missing the point and I'm not sure what you are trying to prove.

David Lee isn't a better defender than Amare because he is a better rebounder. The same way Carmelo isn't a better defender than Lebron because he averages more rebounds

Rebounding, in relation to evaluating an individual player, is not defense. It is simply rebounding.

If you think otherwise, then you are wrong.


I'm not trying to prove anything, but sorry that it seems I've bothered you in some way. I only responded to your original post which stated these words exactly: "Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding."

I'm glad that you've at least amended that statement in a later post by saying "Rebounding, in relation to evaluating an individual player, is not defense. It is simply rebounding." Is that what you meant to say in your original post?
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Re: David Lee 

Post#50 » by GONYK » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:38 pm

BernardKing wrote:
I'm not trying to prove anything, but sorry that it seems I've bothered you in some way. I only responded to your original post which stated these words exactly: "Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding."

I'm glad that you've at least amended that statement in a later post by saying "Rebounding, in relation to evaluating an individual player, is not defense. It is simply rebounding." Is that what you meant to say in your original post?


It's what I've meant all along. Rebounding numbers don't indicate any sort of defensive ability whether you are talking about a player, or a team.

I'm not bothered by your posts, but you initially stated that my point was obvious, but then continued to talk around it. So I was genuinely wondering what you were trying to prove.
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Re: David Lee 

Post#51 » by BernardKing » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:20 pm

GONYK wrote:
BernardKing wrote:
I'm not trying to prove anything, but sorry that it seems I've bothered you in some way. I only responded to your original post which stated these words exactly: "Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding."

I'm glad that you've at least amended that statement in a later post by saying "Rebounding, in relation to evaluating an individual player, is not defense. It is simply rebounding." Is that what you meant to say in your original post?


It's what I've meant all along. Rebounding numbers don't indicate any sort of defensive ability whether you are talking about a player, or a team.

I'm not bothered by your posts, but you initially stated that my point was obvious, but then continued to talk around it. So I was genuinely wondering what you were trying to prove.


I initially stated what? Sorry no. Anyone can read back and see that my initial response was to disagree with your original post. Our conversation begins on page 2 of this thread.
Your original post: "Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding."

My initial response: "Defensive rebounding is part of overall team defense. A defensive stop is typically completed with a defensive rebound."

I then went on to quote a family member who's a lifelong basketball coach. He also disagreed with the statement "Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding."

Again, anyone can quickly and easily read back over our little conversation which begins on page 2 of this thread. I should probably let you know that I also disagree with your other quote: "If you think otherwise, then you are wrong". LOL this is where the conversation ends for me. Thanks for the possible future sig material.
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Re: David Lee 

Post#52 » by GONYK » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:13 pm

BernardKing wrote:
GONYK wrote:
BernardKing wrote:
I'm not trying to prove anything, but sorry that it seems I've bothered you in some way. I only responded to your original post which stated these words exactly: "Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding."

I'm glad that you've at least amended that statement in a later post by saying "Rebounding, in relation to evaluating an individual player, is not defense. It is simply rebounding." Is that what you meant to say in your original post?


It's what I've meant all along. Rebounding numbers don't indicate any sort of defensive ability whether you are talking about a player, or a team.

I'm not bothered by your posts, but you initially stated that my point was obvious, but then continued to talk around it. So I was genuinely wondering what you were trying to prove.


I initially stated what? Sorry no. Anyone can read back and see that my initial response was to disagree with your original post. Our conversation begins on page 2 of this thread.
Your original post: "Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding."

My initial response: "Defensive rebounding is part of overall team defense. A defensive stop is typically completed with a defensive rebound."

I then went on to quote a family member who's a lifelong basketball coach. He also disagreed with the statement "Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding."

Again, anyone can quickly and easily read back over our little conversation which begins on page 2 of this thread. I should probably let you know that I also disagree with your other quote: "If you think otherwise, then you are wrong". LOL this is where the conversation ends for me. Thanks for the possible future sig material.


Sig whatever you like. I stand behind every word I've said. I think anyone who cares to read this discussion can cleary see what my argument is and the point I'm making. If you choose to be obtuse about it, that is very much your business.

I will say that if you believe that Blake Griffin is a better defender than Tyson Chandler, or Carmelo is a better defender than Lebron, or that the Nuggets are a better defensive team than the Knicks simply because they average more rebounds, then yes, you are very very wrong.
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Re: David Lee 

Post#53 » by BernardKing » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:30 am

GONYK wrote:
BernardKing wrote:I initially stated what? Sorry no. Anyone can read back and see that my initial response was to disagree with your original post. Our conversation begins on page 2 of this thread.
Your original post: "Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding."

My initial response: "Defensive rebounding is part of overall team defense. A defensive stop is typically completed with a defensive rebound."

I then went on to quote a family member who's a lifelong basketball coach. He also disagreed with the statement "Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding."

Again, anyone can quickly and easily read back over our little conversation which begins on page 2 of this thread. I should probably let you know that I also disagree with your other quote: "If you think otherwise, then you are wrong". LOL this is where the conversation ends for me. Thanks for the possible future sig material.


Sig whatever you like. I stand behind every word I've said. I think anyone who cares to read this discussion can cleary see what my argument is and the point I'm making. If you choose to be obtuse about it, that is very much your business.

I will say that if you believe that Blake Griffin is a better defender than Tyson Chandler, or Carmelo is a better defender than Lebron, or that the Nuggets are a better defensive team than the Knicks simply because they average more rebounds, then yes, you are very very wrong.


Thanks for the heads up. I guess if anyone believes that Blake Griffin is somehow a better defender than DPOY Tyson Chandler, then that person will be have to answer to you. :roll:
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Re: David Lee 

Post#54 » by blumatic » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:32 am

I agree with GONYK. Rebounding is not a stat that you use to evaluate in being a good defender. The 2006-07 Knicks led the league in rebounding. And we sucked at defense. The act of rebounding is not defending. Your grabbing something up for grabs.

This goes back to the argument in another thread where someone said Tyson was overrated and not a DPOY player.

Tyson is not swatting everything away and rebounding everything in the air. But he defends his own man, help-defends like the best in the league. Tyson directs the defense and anytime he was out it was a huge difference.

Same goes for blocking shots. The true defensive stat is defensive turnovers and steals.
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Re: David Lee 

Post#55 » by GONYK » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:47 am

blumatic wrote:I agree with GONYK. Rebounding is not a stat that you use to evaluate in being a good defender. The 2006-07 Knicks led the league in rebounding. And we sucked at defense. The act of rebounding is not defending. Your grabbing something up for grabs.

This goes back to the argument in another thread where someone said Tyson was overrated and not a DPOY player.

Tyson is not swatting everything away and rebounding everything in the air. But he defends his own man, help-defends like the best in the league. Tyson directs the defense and anytime he was out it was a huge difference.

Same goes for blocking shots. The true defensive stat is defensive turnovers and steals.


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Re: David Lee 

Post#56 » by BernardKing » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:31 am

blumatic wrote:I agree with GONYK. Rebounding is not a stat that you use to evaluate in being a good defender. The 2006-07 Knicks led the league in rebounding. And we sucked at defense. The act of rebounding is not defending. Your grabbing something up for grabs.

This goes back to the argument in another thread where someone said Tyson was overrated and not a DPOY player.

Tyson is not swatting everything away and rebounding everything in the air. But he defends his own man, help-defends like the best in the league. Tyson directs the defense and anytime he was out it was a huge difference.

Same goes for blocking shots. The true defensive stat is defensive turnovers and steals.


You mean you think Tyson's a better defender than Blake Griffin? So does EVERYONE. Can you please show me where in this thread anyone said Blake is better at D than Tyson? If you can't, than you are putting words in people's mouths just like GONYK. I'm glad you agree with GONYK that Lebron is a better defender than Carmelo. Very good, now show me where in this thread anyone suggested otherwise. Or in any other thread for that matter. I do however agree that long time poster GONYK sorely needed someone to come to his defense in this particular case.
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Re: David Lee 

Post#57 » by GONYK » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:53 am

BernardKing wrote:
blumatic wrote:I agree with GONYK. Rebounding is not a stat that you use to evaluate in being a good defender. The 2006-07 Knicks led the league in rebounding. And we sucked at defense. The act of rebounding is not defending. Your grabbing something up for grabs.

This goes back to the argument in another thread where someone said Tyson was overrated and not a DPOY player.

Tyson is not swatting everything away and rebounding everything in the air. But he defends his own man, help-defends like the best in the league. Tyson directs the defense and anytime he was out it was a huge difference.

Same goes for blocking shots. The true defensive stat is defensive turnovers and steals.


You mean you think Tyson's a better defender than Blake Griffin? So does EVERYONE. Can you please show me where in this thread anyone said Blake is better at D than Tyson? If you can't, than you are putting words in people's mouths just like GONYK. I'm glad you agree with GONYK that Lebron is a better defender than Carmelo. Very good, now show me where in this thread anyone suggested otherwise. Or in any other thread for that matter. I do however agree that long time poster GONYK sorely needed someone to come to his defense in this particular case.


:roll:

Whatever you say. You refuse to acknowledge the point being made and continue trying to prove a point that only you seem to know.

This whole thing started with me stating that Lee being a rebounder than Amare doesn't make him a better defender, because rebounding indicates nothing about defensive ability.

Why you insist on making that point, which you called obvious, more than that, I don't know. You're fighting a pointless battle with yourself at this stage.
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Re: David Lee 

Post#58 » by BernardKing » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:14 am

GONYK wrote:
BernardKing wrote:
blumatic wrote:I agree with GONYK. Rebounding is not a stat that you use to evaluate in being a good defender. The 2006-07 Knicks led the league in rebounding. And we sucked at defense. The act of rebounding is not defending. Your grabbing something up for grabs.

This goes back to the argument in another thread where someone said Tyson was overrated and not a DPOY player.

Tyson is not swatting everything away and rebounding everything in the air. But he defends his own man, help-defends like the best in the league. Tyson directs the defense and anytime he was out it was a huge difference.

Same goes for blocking shots. The true defensive stat is defensive turnovers and steals.


You mean you think Tyson's a better defender than Blake Griffin? So does EVERYONE. Can you please show me where in this thread anyone said Blake is better at D than Tyson? If you can't, than you are putting words in people's mouths just like GONYK. I'm glad you agree with GONYK that Lebron is a better defender than Carmelo. Very good, now show me where in this thread anyone suggested otherwise. Or in any other thread for that matter. I do however agree that long time poster GONYK sorely needed someone to come to his defense in this particular case.


:roll:

Whatever you say. You refuse to acknowledge the point being made and continue trying to prove a point that only you seem to know.

This whole thing started with me stating that Lee being a rebounder than Amare doesn't make him a better defender, because rebounding indicates nothing about defensive ability.

Why you insist on making that point, which you called obvious, more than that, I don't know. You're fighting a pointless battle with yourself at this stage.


That's your opinion. Speaking of opinions, here are the two differing opinions… Who to believe? Well let's look at actual quotes for a change instead of your tactics of putting words into people's mouths.

GONYK: "Rebounding isn't defense. It is rebounding."

Dr. James A. Gels: "Defensive rebounding is a key part of good defense in general, limiting the offense to just one shot." ( http://www.coachesclipboard.net/Rebounding.html )

It's such a tough call…. Who to believe? Well let's look at the credentials of the two opiners...

GONYK's credentials: Frequent internet message board poster who has been known to come out with gems like "If you think otherwise, then you are wrong."

Dr. James A. Gels credentials: Coach Gels has been coaching basketball at the youth, AAU and high school level for over 20 years... Over the last 20 plus years of coaching basketball he has been a part of winning teams on all of those levels. He has acquired a lifetime of basketball knowledge. Coach Gels is also the creator of a basketball coaching website called The Coach’s Clipboard...

Owned. Thanks for playing.
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Re: David Lee 

Post#59 » by Kampuchea » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:24 am

rebounds are not the same thing as defense.
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Re: David Lee 

Post#60 » by BernardKing » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:34 am

MozTheMan wrote:rebounds are not the same thing as defense.


Who exactly said they were the same thing? And yes, please provide the quote from the poster saying that rebounds and defense are "the same thing".
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