ImageImageImageImageImage

Looking at the numbers . . .

Moderators: nate33, montestewart, LyricalRico

User avatar
Chocolate City Jordanaire
RealGM
Posts: 52,609
And1: 8,968
Joined: Aug 05, 2001
       

Re: Looking at the numbers . . . 

Post#81 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Tue Dec 4, 2012 11:17 pm

If they didn't play better, the sure ended up better off and appreciated by their future teams.

DeShawn played in the finals and has a ring. Caron played in the playoffs with the Clippers and is still starting. He DeShawn and Brendan are NBA Champions, even if they were along for the ride. All are useful players who could help this Wizards team. Jamison played worse in Cleveland and was so bad he's with the Lakers. Miller was worse with the Heat due to injuries, until he hit six threes in a deciding NBA Championship game. He is better off. Young played worse with the Clippers and might not be any better at all with Philly but still has the support of Doug Collins. McGee was a guy I predicted was going to be playing in the playoffs when Denver appeared to be mailing in their season. He has more playoff appearances than Okafor, already.

The young bigs McGee and Blatche are relevant to the Ted/EG era. Both have PERs over 20 after being called knuckleheads months ago. My point about Blatche on Nivek's diamond rating is that I believe Beal would be on it and Vesely WILL be better in another uniform.

As for Pecherov, the Wizards traded him to the 15-67 Minnesota Timberwolves, coached by Kurt Rambis. He started 5 games, shot .550 FG, and averaged 10 points and 6 rebounds in 22 minutes of play. That would be 15 and 9 over 33 minutes. Pecherov was behind a couple guys named Kevin Love and Al Jefferson. The point guards were Jonny Flynn and Ramon Sessions of 3 years ago. His career was derailed by not being in the right place at the right time, and by not being tough minded or having good veterans around him.

Vesely is not Pecherov. If you could morph the two into one player, that player would be something like Alex Len.

nate, I'm not disagreeing that the players are not better per se, but totally disagree that they're not almost ALL better off away from the Wizards.
Bye bye Beal.
User avatar
Nivek
Head Coach
Posts: 7,406
And1: 959
Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Contact:
         

Re: Looking at the numbers . . . 

Post#82 » by Nivek » Tue Dec 4, 2012 11:24 pm

"Better off" is a completely different statement than "better." The players haven't gotten better, but many are better off.
"A lot of what we call talent is the desire to practice."
-- Malcolm Gladwell

Check out my blog about the Wizards, movies, writing, music, TV, sports, and whatever else comes to mind.
User avatar
dandridge 10
Veteran
Posts: 2,500
And1: 537
Joined: Feb 16, 2005

Re: Looking at the numbers . . . 

Post#83 » by dandridge 10 » Tue Dec 4, 2012 11:31 pm

Nivek wrote:"Better off" is a completely different statement than "better." The players haven't gotten better, but many are better off.


Exactly, and the reason why most of those players are (or were) better off is because they went to better teams.
User avatar
Chocolate City Jordanaire
RealGM
Posts: 52,609
And1: 8,968
Joined: Aug 05, 2001
       

Re: Looking at the numbers . . . 

Post#84 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Tue Dec 4, 2012 11:52 pm

dandridge 10 wrote:
Nivek wrote:"Better off" is a completely different statement than "better." The players haven't gotten better, but many are better off.


Exactly, and the reason why most of those players are (or were) better off is because they went to better teams.


And the reason they went to better teams is the Wizards were worse. It is a chicken and egg thing. Which occurred first? Did the players stink that they acquired or did the team that acquired them stink?

Also, nate and Nivek, I beg to differ as to whether the players got worse.

Jamison put up 50-plus a couple of times the Warriors. The Wizards traded him when he was aged 32. Jamison didn't play worse as a Cavalier with Lebron on his team. He stunk when Lebron left the Cavs. He played 25 games with Lebron in 2009-2010. His playoff PER and WS/48 with Cleveland is not an outlier either way.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... san01.html

Butler started for the Heat and the Lakers before he was a Wizard. Immediately after being traded, his PER and his WS/48 went up before he suffered an injury as a Maverick. They did better starting Shawn Marion, but Caron did not immediately get worse with Dallas. He got hurt. They won without him. Neither Jamison nor Butler was playing much defense with the Wizards. Both those guys are still playing at much the same level today.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... eca01.html

We can go around and around on this. I think they are better off and did not play worse--I will give you that they did not play better--with their new teams.

What I think is the Wizards the past 5 seasons have always been losing and in turmoil. The players could all be decent roll players but the life cycle has been to discard players on acrimonious terms, rather than to discard the GM.

Did those players stink or did the GM and the front office stink after signing Arenas only to see him succumb to his pre-existing injuries?
Bye bye Beal.
penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 28,313
And1: 8,584
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
 

Re: Looking at the numbers . . . 

Post#85 » by penbeast0 » Wed Dec 5, 2012 12:21 am

"Roll Players?" Are those guys who only look good on winning teams?
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
User avatar
Chocolate City Jordanaire
RealGM
Posts: 52,609
And1: 8,968
Joined: Aug 05, 2001
       

Re: Looking at the numbers . . . 

Post#86 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Dec 5, 2012 12:33 am

penbeast0 wrote:"Roll Players?" Are those guys who only look good on winning teams?

They look good at the buffet line, penbeast.

Dinner roll. Tootsie Roll. Breakfast Roll. Roll Tide ...

Role player. My bad, penbeast. :oops:
Bye bye Beal.
hands11
Banned User
Posts: 31,171
And1: 2,444
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Looking at the numbers . . . 

Post#87 » by hands11 » Wed Dec 5, 2012 1:02 am

nate33 wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:To get back on topic, Nivek, of course Blatche made the diamond list.

If the Wizards trade Vesely, he'll do well on another roster, too. Bradley Beal would soon be a diamond if they trade him. This type of thing is the norm with Washington.

People keep saying this, but it's really not true. As a rule, former Wizards tend to play worse after they have been traded or allowed to depart via free agency:

Blatche - better after departing
McGee - same
Young - terrible in LA. Not so good in Philly either
Hinrich - worse in Atlanta
Gee - better after departing, but does his 22 total games as a Wizard really count?
Jamison - worse in Cleveland and LA
Butler - worse in Dallas and horrible in LA
Haywood - worse in Dallas and about the same in Charlotte
Miller - worse in Miami
McGuire - about the same (useful bench player)

and going back a little further
Jeffries - terrible in New York
Hughes - terrible in Cleveland

With the exception of Blatche in a small sample size, you really have to go back to the days of Rip, B.Wallace, R.Wallace and Webber to find a time when this assertion was actually true.


Myth Busters next episode. I like it.
Zonkerbl
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 8,184
And1: 4,151
Joined: Mar 24, 2010
       

Re: Looking at the numbers . . . 

Post#88 » by Zonkerbl » Wed Dec 5, 2012 6:13 pm

Yeah, players go from a situation in DC where they were expected to contribute a lot and failed and go to a situation at a better team where they're expected to do a lot less and succeed.
I've been taught all my life to value service to the weak and powerless.
User avatar
Nivek
Head Coach
Posts: 7,406
And1: 959
Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Contact:
         

Re: Looking at the numbers . . . 

Post#89 » by Nivek » Wed Dec 5, 2012 6:33 pm

"A lot of what we call talent is the desire to practice."
-- Malcolm Gladwell

Check out my blog about the Wizards, movies, writing, music, TV, sports, and whatever else comes to mind.
Zonkerbl
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 8,184
And1: 4,151
Joined: Mar 24, 2010
       

Re: Looking at the numbers . . . 

Post#90 » by Zonkerbl » Wed Dec 5, 2012 6:39 pm

We're certainly not doing Beal any favors throwing him to the wolves in the starting unit.
I've been taught all my life to value service to the weak and powerless.
dobrojim
RealGM
Posts: 15,576
And1: 3,301
Joined: Sep 16, 2004

Re: Looking at the numbers . . . 

Post#91 » by dobrojim » Wed Dec 5, 2012 6:44 pm

I don't know how important this is but I will simply note that early
on as a Frosh last year Beal also struggled. Then he got better.
Which is the bigger jump, HS -> NCAA div 1 or NCAA div 1 -> NBA.
I think the latter.

Do I have concerns that his shooting has not been good? Sure.
Let's see how he shoots after the all star break.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression

Those who are convinced of absurdities, can be convinced to commit atrocities
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 66,783
And1: 19,069
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Looking at the numbers . . . 

Post#92 » by nate33 » Wed Dec 5, 2012 7:13 pm


Interesting. I never would have guessed that he compares so unfavorably in rebounds.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 66,783
And1: 19,069
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Looking at the numbers . . . 

Post#93 » by nate33 » Wed Dec 5, 2012 7:23 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:DeShawn played in the finals and has a ring. Caron played in the playoffs with the Clippers and is still starting. He DeShawn and Brendan are NBA Champions, even if they were along for the ride. All are useful players who could help this Wizards team. Jamison played worse in Cleveland and was so bad he's with the Lakers. Miller was worse with the Heat due to injuries, until he hit six threes in a deciding NBA Championship game. He is better off. Young played worse with the Clippers and might not be any better at all with Philly but still has the support of Doug Collins. McGee was a guy I predicted was going to be playing in the playoffs when Denver appeared to be mailing in their season. He has more playoff appearances than Okafor, already.

CCJ, it drives me crazy when you do this. You cherrypick anecdotal evidence to back up your assertions, when any unbiased observation using real stats say just the opposite. Just because Miller hit 6 threes in one game does not mean he was a better player after he left. Just because Jamison has found himself on the Lakers, does not mean he played better. Just because DeShawn got a ring while playing 16 minutes a game doesn't mean he played better after leaving.

It's obviously true that these players left a bad team and joined a contending team and therefore probably enjoyed their new position better. But the whole reason this argument started was because you implied that the Wizards are somehow fundamentally deficient in getting the best out of their players. That's simply not the case. Their deficiency is in acquiring good players in the first place. The ones that they get play within their career norms when they're here.
User avatar
tontoz
RealGM
Posts: 18,364
And1: 3,824
Joined: Apr 11, 2005

Re: Looking at the numbers . . . 

Post#94 » by tontoz » Wed Dec 5, 2012 9:02 pm

The Wizards are currently 15th in defensive efficiency and 12th in defensive rebounding rate. The latter number comes as a bit of a shock.
"bulky agile perimeter bone crunch pick setting draymond green" WizD
User avatar
Nivek
Head Coach
Posts: 7,406
And1: 959
Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Contact:
         

Re: Looking at the numbers . . . 

Post#95 » by Nivek » Wed Dec 5, 2012 9:32 pm

Wiz are not awful on defense although I think they'll miss Ariza on that end. They might welcome his absence on the offensive end, however.
"A lot of what we call talent is the desire to practice."
-- Malcolm Gladwell

Check out my blog about the Wizards, movies, writing, music, TV, sports, and whatever else comes to mind.
User avatar
Chocolate City Jordanaire
RealGM
Posts: 52,609
And1: 8,968
Joined: Aug 05, 2001
       

Re: Looking at the numbers . . . 

Post#96 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Dec 5, 2012 10:26 pm

nate33 wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:DeShawn played in the finals and has a ring. Caron played in the playoffs with the Clippers and is still starting. He DeShawn and Brendan are NBA Champions, even if they were along for the ride. All are useful players who could help this Wizards team. Jamison played worse in Cleveland and was so bad he's with the Lakers. Miller was worse with the Heat due to injuries, until he hit six threes in a deciding NBA Championship game. He is better off. Young played worse with the Clippers and might not be any better at all with Philly but still has the support of Doug Collins. McGee was a guy I predicted was going to be playing in the playoffs when Denver appeared to be mailing in their season. He has more playoff appearances than Okafor, already.

CCJ, it drives me crazy when you do this. You cherrypick anecdotal evidence to back up your assertions, when any unbiased observation using real stats say just the opposite. Just because Miller hit 6 threes in one game does not mean he was a better player after he left. Just because Jamison has found himself on the Lakers, does not mean he played better. Just because DeShawn got a ring while playing 16 minutes a game doesn't mean he played better after leaving.

It's obviously true that these players left a bad team and joined a contending team and therefore probably enjoyed their new position better. But the whole reason this argument started was because you implied that the Wizards are somehow fundamentally deficient in getting the best out of their players. That's simply not the case. Their deficiency is in acquiring good players in the first place. The ones that they get play within their career norms when they're here.


McGee is playing his best right now. Blatche is playing his best right now. The Wizards could have gotten this Blatche with Seraphin and Nene, without signing Okafor. They did not get the best out of McGee or Blatche.

I would be the last to argue they don't get the best talent. I suggest year after year the talented players they do not draft.

nate, I don't even remember what the initial point was but the stats I posted show none of the players that played key roles for teams better than the Wizards dropped off in production. I read posts that imply they basically fizzled out and failed elsewhere. My point is they virtually always have better careers post-Wizards. Guys the Wizard cannot wait to get rid of are useful elsewhere.

What I believe is they are the same players in a better situation.

I think the Wizards organization lost a lot more games due to poor rosters, poor management decisions, injuries, and at times lousy coaching. None of that really matters to me, however.

Right now I am interested in this team, this season. I think Wittman is a good coach and that some things are bound to get better soon.
Bye bye Beal.
mhd
General Manager
Posts: 9,309
And1: 1,428
Joined: Mar 25, 2004

Re: Looking at the numbers . . . 

Post#97 » by mhd » Wed Dec 5, 2012 10:28 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:DeShawn played in the finals and has a ring. Caron played in the playoffs with the Clippers and is still starting. He DeShawn and Brendan are NBA Champions, even if they were along for the ride. All are useful players who could help this Wizards team. Jamison played worse in Cleveland and was so bad he's with the Lakers. Miller was worse with the Heat due to injuries, until he hit six threes in a deciding NBA Championship game. He is better off. Young played worse with the Clippers and might not be any better at all with Philly but still has the support of Doug Collins. McGee was a guy I predicted was going to be playing in the playoffs when Denver appeared to be mailing in their season. He has more playoff appearances than Okafor, already.

CCJ, it drives me crazy when you do this. You cherrypick anecdotal evidence to back up your assertions, when any unbiased observation using real stats say just the opposite. Just because Miller hit 6 threes in one game does not mean he was a better player after he left. Just because Jamison has found himself on the Lakers, does not mean he played better. Just because DeShawn got a ring while playing 16 minutes a game doesn't mean he played better after leaving.

It's obviously true that these players left a bad team and joined a contending team and therefore probably enjoyed their new position better. But the whole reason this argument started was because you implied that the Wizards are somehow fundamentally deficient in getting the best out of their players. That's simply not the case. Their deficiency is in acquiring good players in the first place. The ones that they get play within their career norms when they're here.


McGee is playing his best right now. Blatche is playing his best right now. The Wizards could have gotten this Blatche with Seraphin and Nene, without signing Okafor. They did not get the best out of McGee or Blatche.

I would be the last to argue they don't get the best talent. I suggest year after year the talented players they do not draft.

nate, I don't even remember what the initial point was but the stats I posted show none of the players that played key roles for teams better than the Wizards dropped off in production. I read posts that imply they basically fizzled out and failed elsewhere. My point is they virtually always have better careers post-Wizards. Guys the Wizard cannot wait to get rid of are useful elsewhere.

What I believe is they are the same players in a better situation.

I think the Wizards organization lost a lot more games due to poor rosters, poor management decisions, injuries, and at times lousy coaching. None of that really matters to me, however.

Right now I am interested in this team, this season. I think Wittman is a good coach and that some things are bound to get better soon.



CCJ, Blatche has been out of shape for 2 years. It took him being amnestied before he got in shape.
User avatar
dandridge 10
Veteran
Posts: 2,500
And1: 537
Joined: Feb 16, 2005

Re: Looking at the numbers . . . 

Post#98 » by dandridge 10 » Wed Dec 5, 2012 10:29 pm



Thank you for this. I will still have concerns until Beal starts knocking down open jumpers, but this makes me feel better. :D
hands11
Banned User
Posts: 31,171
And1: 2,444
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Looking at the numbers . . . 

Post#99 » by hands11 » Thu Dec 6, 2012 12:25 am

CCJ. My man. Brother. Let it go. Really. Just let it go.

How about focusing on ... by the number, how do you line the Wizards up best you can. None of those players are here anymore. Turn the page.
Zonkerbl
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 8,184
And1: 4,151
Joined: Mar 24, 2010
       

Re: Looking at the numbers . . . 

Post#100 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Dec 6, 2012 2:59 pm

Wow, Jordan Crawford with a 74. He looks like he's doing really well and then you look at his actual production and...
I've been taught all my life to value service to the weak and powerless.

Return to Washington Wizards