I Am Done Defending Deron

GetItDone · Post #101 » by **GetItDone** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:04 am

Deron shot 41% in the Olympics.

Let's stop blaming the system.

SelbyCobra · Post #102 » by **SelbyCobra** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:07 am

Trader_Joe wrote:Almost 2 years ago the Nets acquired the consolation prize in the Melo sweepstakes. The fans and FO were ecstatic. It was to the point, that the Nets were able to spin things as though they got the player better and better deal. It is clear that is not the case.

Between the highly exploitable defense and terrible shooting percentages, I'm not sure he's much more than a slightly above average starting point guard in the NBA and the only reason he ranks that high is because he is still an excellent play maker and that I know the talent does exist on both ends of the court and does come out occasionally.

I almost never come to the GB, but was lurking here tonight and saw this thread. I posted this a few days ago, and think it's probably relevant here, though it's up to each of you to draw your own conclusions and/or opinions. The issue to me is very clearly his wrist, which just happened to coincide within a matter of days with his trade to the Nets. Anyway, here's what I posted:

On December 28th, 2010 he suffered a seemingly innocuous tendon injury to his right wrist. A month later, on January 26th, he hyperextended the same wrist, missed a week of games, and when he returned (February 4th) he couldn't shoot anymore. For the season prior to missing games due to the wrist, he was shooting .467 from the field and .366 from downtown. After returning from the wrist injury he shot .400 from the field and .206 from downtown.

Less than month after coming back from the missed time he was traded to the Nets, where the wrist subsequently got significantly worse and he eventually required major surgery to try and fix the problem.

So basically, Deron Williams hurt his shooting wrist pretty dramatically just a few weeks prior to being traded to the Nets, and it got worse until he had to have season-ending surgery on it. If you break his career down into pre/post wrist injury, the numbers look like this:

Pre-Injury: .467 FG%, .362 3P%

Post-Injury: .397 FG%, .308 3P%

Keep in mind that this is the same wrist that he sprained again against the Knicks in their first meeting, and one that he has been seen stretching and flexing in games as a Net.

ibraheim718 · Post #103 » by **ibraheim718** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:08 am

How do you explain his poor play? I know you don't want to hear it but he's suffered injury after injury.
Is he past his prime? No
Where do you rank him among current PGs? Does this really even matter?
What do you do if you are Deron? Try and focus on just running the offense.
Avery or another coach? Avery has stifled his PG's in the past but I don't think this is the problem.
King? Eh... he's put the team together as best he could while trying to keep up in the Free agency frenzy of the last two or three years.
Will he find his shot? Probably not until the leg injury heals which needs surgery if I'm not mistaken (clarify the injury for me please I forget what it was)
His defense? He's always been an average defender.. laterally he's never been the quickest even going back to illinois
Who would be good trade targets? I wouldn't trade him just yet.
What teams would he fit in with? He'd fit in well with a really good PnR 4..

Here's the thing.. before he got hurt when he was in Utah he was either the best PG in the league or was 1b... he would get into the paint and yoke on people... he's not the same player physically... he's laboring out there... athletes need be optimally healthy to excel in any sport.

Look at this video and tell me that this is the same player physically...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjGUHLIZE4o[/youtube]

Here's the other thing Deron has never been the prototypical playmaking PG.. he's always been a PG that relies on his strength and he's ability to control the game and score from the lead guard position.

He's hobbled man... it just is what it is.

GetItDone · Post #104 » by **GetItDone** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:09 am

If his wrist is bothering him, why does he keep shooting so much?

[GR] · Post #105 » by **[GR]** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:10 am

It's not the system. Whether it's the injury or not, he's been bad since going to the Nets. There's no reason a star should be struggling to shoot 40%. If it's the injury forever changed him, he's damaged goods, if it's other issues he's past his prime. He's a weird case, but right now he's not a max player.

Doormatt · Post #106 » by **Doormatt** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:11 am

GetItDone wrote:If his wrist is bothering him, why does he keep shooting so much?

what do you mean why is he shooting so much? hes taking 3 less FGA compared to last year.

SelbyCobra · Post #107 » by **SelbyCobra** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:13 am

GetItDone wrote:If his wrist is bothering him, why does he keep shooting so much?

It doesn't necessarily have to be bothering him in order to affect his shot. Power hitters in baseball can come all the way back from hand/wrist injuries, but be negatively affected for the rest of their careers. If it alters his bio-mechanics, then he quite literally be a different player with regards to shooting the ball at this point.

CrazyKnicks · Post #108 » by **CrazyKnicks** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:13 am

I've watched my share of Nets games this year, and I feel like he can defend when he really wants to. However I feel like his problem is not being assertive enough at the end of games when it's time to win. For example: You watch the Clippers and you see CP3 time in the closing moments but you don't see that with Dwill.

As a Knick fan, we had a similar issue with Melo last year as he wasn't playing well for most of the season, had some injuries and his motives were questionable. But he has turned it around so I don't see why Dwill can't.

Maybe a coaching change will do the trick because I don't feel like Avery is getting the best out of that team.

DarkXaero · Post #109 » by **DarkXaero** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:14 am

GetItDone wrote:Deron shot 41% in the Olympics.

Let's stop blaming the system.

Small sample size but more than half of his attempts were 3s for which he shot 40.6% (which is very good). And his overall FG% was actually 39%, not 41%. His assists to turnover ratio was insanely good though (37 assists, 8 turnovers in 8 games & 18 MPG), which was better than what CP3 had (41 assists, 13 turnovers in 25.8 MPG).

Overall, I don't think Olympics is an indicator of him being a system player or not. His play did prove that he belonged on Team USA though.

therealbig3 · Post #110 » by **therealbig3** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:14 am

GetItDone wrote:If his wrist is bothering him, why does he keep shooting so much?

He's averaging less than 15 shots a game, and only took 13 shots tonight. He's not shooting that much at all.

A large percentage of his shots are 3 pointers though, and he's sucked on those. And a big part of that is yes, the system. Avery's system, which uses Deron like he's Ray Allen, and largely is built around isos, which means Deron isos and shoots a jumper because he can't get by his man, or he spots up and can't hit the shot because his wrist is injured.

I know people don't want to accept this, but injuries/coaching can severely affect a player's performance.

And I've criticized Deron's mindset myself (too passive, even with the injuries), but it's clear to me that he's banged up, and that's the biggest reason why he's not playing well right now.

OptimusOne6 · Post #111 » by **OptimusOne6** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:17 am

When did Deron re-injure his wrist this season? I actually never heard of this but I'm more than positive he was still shooting like hot garbage before he did.

The truth is that Deron is a system type PG, which is funny because Deron fanboys always said that CP3 was the system type PG when they tried to argue that he was better than Paul. I guess one of the two is a system PG, but it's not Paul. :lol:

He was a borderline superstar with Sloan, now he is a borderline all-star without him.

StephNYKurry · Post #112 » by **StephNYKurry** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:17 am

GetItDone wrote:If his wrist is bothering him, why does he keep shooting so much?

What other ways would you have him contribute in an isolation, post-up driven system? Its not like there are driving lanes readily available, with two of Evans, Lopez, Humphries, and Blatche on the floor at all times, and even the stuff that Avery DOES run for him, are to get him long two's and open 3's.

Avery sucks as an offensive coach.

ibraheim718 · Post #113 » by **ibraheim718** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:17 am

therealbig3 wrote:
GetItDone wrote:If his wrist is bothering him, why does he keep shooting so much?

He's averaging less than 15 shots a game, and only took 13 shots tonight. He's not shooting that much at all.

A large percentage of his shots are 3 pointers though, and he's sucked on those. And a big part of that is yes, the system. Avery's system, which uses Deron like he's Ray Allen, and largely is built around isos, which means Deron isos and shoots a jumper because he can't get by his man, or he spots up and can't hit the shot because his wrist is injured.

I know people don't want to accept this, but injuries/coaching can severely affect a player's performance.

And I've criticized Deron's mindset myself (too passive, even with the injuries), but it's clear to me that he's banged up, and that's the biggest reason why he's not playing well right now.

Last time I watched him was against NY... and I've followed his career pretty closely because I largely just prefer to watch good PG's play the game because I was one.. and the guy didn't look right... the ankle has to be bothering him and if it is it will affect everything.. shooting, moving laterally when defending, attacking the bucket.

orangeparka · Post #114 » by **orangeparka** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:18 am

Disappointing. He was one of my favorite players while in UTA, and his playoff runs were just fantastic. He had like 24/11 postseason lines and I really thought he was the best PG those couple of seasons before getting traded.

I always thought he'd be back to a 20/10 type player with a solid supporting cast, but just not seeing it. Could be injuries, coaching, whatever, but he really needs to pick up his play.

ibraheim718 · Post #115 » by **ibraheim718** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:18 am

You guys are forgetting the ankle... the ankle is going to get scoped after the season and it's been bothering him since London.

GetItDone · Post #116 » by **GetItDone** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:20 am

Deron for Love?

He moves to SG?

SelbyCobra · Post #117 » by **SelbyCobra** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:23 am

OptimusOne6 wrote:When did Deron re-injure his wrist this season? I actually never heard of this but I'm more than positive he was still shooting like hot garbage before he did.

Against LAC in November:

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_ ... ined-wrist

NEW YORK -- Brooklyn Nets point guard Deron Williams, who has been playing through a litany of minor injuries lately, revealed he sprained a joint in his right shooting wrist while bracing a fall in Friday night's game against the Los Angeles Clippers.

"When I went up against Blake Griffin (to try to dunk the ball), I landed on it. I came down and braced my fall with the right wrist, and I jammed it,"

Post #118 » by **kingkirk** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:24 am

The only plays i saw run for Deron today were his 3 point shot.

Avery is a poor offensive coach.

How the hell did the Nets only manage 82 points against us today despite having the superior offensive talent on paper and with Lopez playing well down low?

DarkXaero · Post #119 » by **DarkXaero** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:24 am

OptimusOne6 wrote:When did Deron re-injure his wrist this season? I actually never heard of this but I'm more than positive he was still shooting like hot garbage before he did.

The truth is that Deron is a system type PG, which is funny because Deron fanboys always said that CP3 was the system type PG when they tried to argue that he was better than Paul. I guess one of the two is a system PG, but it's not Paul.

He was a borderline superstar with Sloan, now he is a borderline all-star without him.

Well, his ankle was injured before the season even started. He jammed his wrist hard when he tried to dunk over Blake Griffin (which was a ridiculously stupid move on Deron's part). I think the first few games of the season, he was shooting ~45%. Since then it has been going down and down.

And he wasn't a borderline superstar with Sloan, he was definitely a legit top 10 player. His playoffs runs were fantastic.

Vinsanity420 · Post #120 » by **Vinsanity420** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:27 am

therealbig3 wrote:The dude is injured right now, it's horrible watching him try to get by his man and he just can't. He can't shoot because of injuries to his arm and wrist, as well as the fact that Avery horribly misuses him.

His mentality doesn't help things, because yeah, he is playing pretty passively right now and doesn't seem like he wants to turn that around, but a ton of his issues are due to injuries, and he probably shouldn't be playing right now.

And his defense has been horrific? Seriously? He's been quite good defensively overall for the season. A few defensive lapses in a 2 game stretch doesn't change that.

He's struggling big time, and he's still putting up pretty good production, he's still leading a strong offense, the Nets are 13-10, and honestly, he's still a top 5 PG. He just went from a close #2 to a borderline top 5 PG. But he's still elite for his position.

Some of the PGs being ranked ahead of him, and some of the criticisms of him are just ridiculous.

Okay, you can't be using the injured excuse 2 seasons in a row. If he really is injured for that long, you have to be questioning his conditioning issues. This is a seriously long time for a player to be injured. There's a good chance he won't get any better than this.

Agree on his ranking relative to other PG's, though. The thing is, Deron's the highest usage rate player on Brooklyn, and his offensive rating of 108 is good enough for the 7th best offense in the league. That's not bad at all. He's still arguably a Top 5 PG. The defense point is off... by 82games.com, Brooklyn's D improves mightily with him off the floor... and their eFG% defense gets better by 6% ! That's not a small number at all.

So, in short... Paul, Westbrook and maybe Rondo are the 3 PG's that look clearly better at the moment. Rose is out with an injury, so if he returns with full health (which is a big assumption), he is better. The rest with the likes of Kyrie and Curry is very debatable.