Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V

[Induveca]

I don't understand the need to own a gun quite frankly in 95% of America.

Guns are deterrents here in the 3rd world when in very poor areas for the rich. But we hire personal security guards.

Strong security systems, baseball bat and long distance stun guns are all that is needed by the common guy in his suburban home.

I met a guy in Miami with automatic rifles/tons of pistols etc. For no other reason than it was "cool". If people want to use a shooting range, or hunt, fine.....but make them rent the guns or store them in a locker at the facility with no ability to remove them from the premises. Maybe GPS enabled locks.....

Tons of solutions. Basically, if you're so concerned with crime that you need a gun.....hire a security guard. Or move?

[popper]

I don't understand the need to own a gun quite frankly in 95% of America.

Guns are deterrents here in the 3rd world when in very poor areas for the rich. But we hire personal security guards.

Strong security systems, baseball bat and long distance stun guns are all that is needed by the common guy in his suburban home.

I met a guy in Miami with automatic rifles/tons of pistols etc. For no other reason than it was "cool". If people want to use a shooting range, or hunt, fine.....but make them rent the guns or store them in a locker at the facility with no ability to remove them from the premises. Maybe GPS enabled locks.....

Tons of solutions. Basically, if you're so concerned with crime that you need a gun.....hire a security guard. Or move?

Cannot afford to hire a security guard and don't want to move. I really believe the country would be happier if we just split in two. That way the progressives and the conservatives could each pursue their respective ways. As it is now it's a constant battle and none are satisfied.

[montestewart]

Popper, that's the way it's always been.

[Induveca]

I'm confused how is having a gun vs not having a gun "conservative" vs "liberal"? Seems to be a 100% American definition of the words. Conservative anywhere else would mean no guns, no drugs, no alcohol etc.
Liberal would mean "do whatever the hell you want"?

Seems almost backwards in the US political system right now. You don't need a gun Popper. I need a gun when I have to go here for unfortunate business. It's literally to scare off thieves/rapists/general uneducated/frustrated ignorants.



I live in this general block below, where it is 20x more dangerous than any american suburb, but I have no need for a gun.......nor do most of my neighbors. We recognize it for what it is, a very safe area in our country.

The street crime in this area is exponentially higher than anywhere in VA or MD (Baltimore included). But we realize, once you enter a paranoid state of mind, have a gun....get more "stupidly brave"....everyone looks more dangerous, and you get a lot of Zimmerman type situations (and for what it's worth I would have shot the kid if I was Zimmerman as well, but they were both at fault), especially after alcohol.

We mostly hire armed drivers or guards, the guards we share amongst the neighborhood so the price is lower. And before you say you can't afford that, dump your iphone plan, your DirecTV HD channels and a few games for your kids a month, and you can indeed afford a nightly guard in surburban Virginia from 10 PM - 5:30 AM. The question is do you want a gun, or security? Guns cost 1500 and up. 2-3 security guards patrolling your neighborhood nightly will run you 300 a month at most with a neighborhood fund.

[popper]

Popper, that's the way it's always been.

I guess you are right Monte but is it the best way to move forward?

[DCZards]

^^^^^^Yup, that's the say it's always been and splitting the country in two would create even more division and friction. Plus most Americans wouldn't neatly fall into a "progressive" or "conservative" category.

[popper]

Induveca .... I hear what you are saying. I rarely carry a gun but more and more I feel irresponsible if I don't. For gosh sakes people are being mass slaughtered in movie theaters and schools. Someone needs to be prepared for such an occurrence.

[Zonkerbl]

We have a lot of different gun problems in this country. Our inner cities are awash with guns, with all the problems associated with that. We also have a problem that when unbalanced psycho killers decide to go massacre a bunch of kids, it's too goddamn easy for them to get guns. It doesn't seem that hard to understand to me that banning the manufacture and ownership of guns would go a long way towards solving this problem. What annoys the hell out of me is the stupid economist side of my brain who's all "won't banning guns just lead to gun smuggling?" and "what do you do about the fact that the marginal cost of manufacturing a gun is so low?" and "didn't you just spend a good portion of November rejoicing over the partical de-criminalization of marijuana? aren't you being a hypocrite?" and then the angry part of my brain says "I HAVE TWO KIDS!!!! BAN ALL GODDAMN GUNS!!!"

It seems Zonk that you are having the debate in your own mind that our leaders should be having in public. I went to the Chantilly gun show today to pick up a concealed carry piece and the lines to get in were incredible. Could not take it and returned home instead. There were literally tens of thousands of people looking to upgrade their arsenals. Banning all guns will never happen but could spark a civil war. 95 percent of gun owners are perfectly good and law biding citizens. We should enact sensible gun control but really focus in on the 5 percent that are committing these heinous crimes.

Well, the statistician part of my brain says I'd much rather deal with 20 percent of a million people with guns than 5 percent of 250 million. Shoot, I'd rather deal with 100% of a million. Cause we have cops on our side. With zero gun ownership by good guys, we have less kids shooting themselves accidentally, less murder/suicides of passion, less suicides...

I must say, the second amendment was the dumbest idea EVER.

[Zonkerbl]

Induveca .... I hear what you are saying. I rarely carry a gun but more and more I feel irresponsible if I don't. For gosh sakes people are being mass slaughtered in movie theaters and schools. Someone needs to be prepared for such an occurrence.

Heard an article on NPR that the people who stand up and try to defend themselves with guns are the first to get gunned down. You just can't beat someone who already has the drop on you... You just make yourself a target.

Really the only brave thing you can do to prevent these things is stand up to the gun lobby and push for an all out ban with all your strength.

[barelyawake]

Have all those complaining about the drop in the stock market after Obama's election been watching the stock market since? Regained all the losses. Now dipping because Republicans won't make a deal. These tea party idiots have to get out of the way of a good economy. Period.

[Induveca]

Have all those complaining about the drop in the stock market after Obama's election been watching the stock market since? Regained all the losses. Now dipping because Republicans won't make a deal. These tea party idiots have to get out of the way of a good economy. Period.

Good economy? The USA is projected to be 17.5 trillion in debt by end of 2013. US debt has grown by 70% in 5 years.

That is what the debate is over right now......huge budget cuts are needed. While the EU goes into wise austerity measures the US is launching massive government backed programs with no money to pay for them.

If you were 40k in credit card debt with no way to pay down the principal, would you accept a 20k credit increase? Apparently the US government thinks it is a great idea. Heads are buried in the sand, and it doesn't have a **** thing to do with political parties. They are both delusional.

When a country is 17 trillion in debt, millions will be poor without a revolutionary job increase. 2008 was just the beginning, recession round 2 is coming soon for the US and sadly will be much harsher.

[barelyawake]

Indy, arguing with you on this point is much like banging my head against the wall. But, just to respond:

1) Austerity is awful for Europe, though their level of "government support" is leagues greater than ours. Austerity for them is "socialism" for us. Austerity is an economic trap. Why? I've explained several times, if you kill your supposed customers, you can't expand.
2) Most economists predict a huge growth spurt in the American economy once the damn political purests get the hell out of the way.
3) Once we see economic growth and the reduction of health care costs, our debt will not seem so insurmountable.
4) You completely discount the American spirit. Many a dictator, clan, group, country and empire have fallen making that fatal mistake.

[Induveca]

Economies in peril have no room for superstition and emotion.

[barelyawake]

It has nothing to do with superstition. You want to take money out of the hands of the customers who are supposed to expand the economy (by buying things). How the hell does that help an economy? It's the "my father slapped me too much, so if I slap the American workers more they will straighten up" plan. But, after you slap them, they still have no money to spend at your damn store. It's asinine economics. As Bush said, it's voodoo economics. And it is driving even more business to the USA, the more Europe tries it. Growth is the key. Innovation is the key. Shooting yourself in the ass a bunch doesn't make you "tougher."

[DCZards]

Indu, it often sounds like you want America and Americans to fail. I agree with barely. You underestimate us.

[Induveca]

I'm an American citizen, and most of my savings are in dollars. By no means do I want the country to fail. Certain policies, I see no other option but failure. 17 trillion in debt, 70% higher than 5 years ago, and massively expensive federal programs are being implemented now....while the government pays for it by raising the debt ceiling continuously. The *idea* of some policies is good, but to attempt implementation when the country is awash in historically high debt, both at the governmental and personal levels is beyond foolish. It's a blind utopian idea.....

"Underestimate us"? Patriotism. I get it. Wave the flag, do what you want....I'm not one for blind patriotism.

If I see something that threatens my family, I'm protecting them. I'm an American citizen who left the country to save 80% on taxes a year in my parent's home country, ensure my kids have a great education, while I can continue to make far much more money for them, and my future grandchildren.

I can afford my own healthcare, and have been paying in full for over 10 years now. Until the insanity in the US settles down, I'm choosing to lessen my contributions to programs which the country seems completely divided on........

However, 17.5 trillion dollars in debt doesn't go away overnight. That's a decade+ of spending controls, and massive budget cuts. Not budget increases. If the US keeps printing money, eventually it will lose reserve currency status......there is a reason gold is so high right now.

[Induveca]

4) You completely discount the American spirit. Many a dictator, clan, group, country and empire have fallen making that fatal mistake.

And this is why I don't take the argument seriously. I truly respect your patriotism and hope, but no matter how hard you wave a flag it won't save an economy. Cutting your bills, refusing to handcuff yourself with credit, buying things vs leasing them and living within your means will....it's a lesson everyone in the EU/US especially need to learn.

We're actually saying the same things, I'm just putting more pressure on the individual to put more money in their own pocket. The reliance on credit reached epic proportions these past 20 years, and now the government itself is addicted more than ever to debt. 17.5 trillion! 70% increase since 2008, unheard of in modern times.

[Zonkerbl]

Well, another way to put it is that the U.S., being the hotbed of innovation and entrepreneurial spirit it is, will increase the productivity of its citizens to the extent that 17 trillion dollars of debt will only be 75% of GDP, meaning the GDP will grow to about $23 billion, an increase of about 50%.

Yeah. Not going to happen. I'm with Indu here -- America is a great country, but not THAT great. We have to spend less and tax more.

[popper]

Well, another way to put it is that the U.S., being the hotbed of innovation and entrepreneurial spirit it is, will increase the productivity of its citizens to the extent that 17 trillion dollars of debt will only be 75% of GDP, meaning the GDP will grow to about $23 billion, an increase of about 50%.

Yeah. Not going to happen. I'm with Indu here -- America is a great country, but not THAT great. We have to spend less and tax more.

Yep, it's a mathematic certainty. Taxes going up, spending either drastically reduced or hyperinflation cripples us.

[barelyawake]

Again, this thread is of little importance because of the election -- so revisiting old arguments is a waste of breathe.

A lot of our spending is on health care costs and the military.

Of course, "spending" needs to be reduced. But, it's a matter of what and when. Indy believes allowing the middle class to take the hit -- because they are lazy. That's a recipe for disaster. Google "austerity trap."