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What Exactly Is The Issue?

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Re: What Exactly Is The Issue? 

Post#81 » by Dr Aki » Thu Jan 3, 2013 8:17 am

reading this thread...

EVERYTHING IS WRONG!!!
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Re: What Exactly Is The Issue? 

Post#82 » by laduane1 » Thu Jan 3, 2013 8:20 am

I fell asleep reading the opening post. Get to the point. We do not need to read 1,000 words.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#83 » by Mamba Venom » Thu Jan 3, 2013 8:24 am

crazyeights wrote:For a supposed Laker fan you sure don't get Kobe's tone.

He's not even being negative or angry, instead he's pointing out a fact and saying the team has to overcome it.

http://youtu.be/5QpUmBc6sSQ


Reading the article and watching the video are 2 COMPLETELY different stories.

Old as sh-- was obviously a joke. There is no Kobe death stare or anger. He is smiling and explaining what happened. I screamed at the TV when I saw how slow Gasol closed out after Kobe hit the 3 and we were down 97-99. That was the ball game.

ESPN didn't have a vid of Kobe PROFANITY LACED RANT, instead they made it sound like a kid throwing a tantrum and made it sound serious like Kobe was death staring. Awful journalism.
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Re: What Exactly Is The Issue? 

Post#84 » by No-Man » Thu Jan 3, 2013 9:25 am

The main issue is the roster, it was made for the money, the advertisement and the tv, not for a championship.

I don't know if Mitch built it that way on purpose, or it's Jim Buss stuff, but the moves made in the summer were awful.

Howard move was great but the rest... mother of god, everyone that know a little bit about the game knew in the summer that it couldnt work, there is no idea of game, no identity, nothing would fit.

The roster needs major changes if the Lakers want to compete.
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Re: What Exactly Is The Issue? 

Post#85 » by Jakay » Thu Jan 3, 2013 10:26 am

Oh, Nash isn't even playing his game yet, Kobe doesn't quite trust his teammates yet, Pau is older, and Dwight has definitely not found his full game yet.

Don't panic. They will put this together. They will make the playoffs. They will be a team to fear when they do. They are possibly the most remade team this season, and it hasn't clicked as fast as everyone would like, but that's not exactly the end of the world.

That said, they'd better shore up that D if they're going to survive in the playoffs. You can see they're not on the same page at all. No feel for each other yet. Dwight and Pau aren't on the same page yet, Nash and Kobe either. It's not just Pau is slow, it's also that no one quite knows who can cover what yet, and it's obvious.
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Re: What Exactly Is The Issue? 

Post#86 » by EnigmaticProblem » Thu Jan 3, 2013 10:57 am

Browsing through this thread, I've seen "age" be brought up quite a bit. I don't buy age to be an appropriate excuse. The Mavericks team that won the championship had an average age of approximately 31 years old. Those 2008 Celtics were a rather old bunch, as well. James Posey, P.J. Brown and Sam Cassell all had significant minutes on that squad; of their big three, Pierce was the youngest at 30. The 2007 Spurs had a majority of their players at 30+ years old. I could be wrong about this, but I think the 1998 Bulls were the oldest champions, ever.

Look at what the Knicks have accomplished so far, this year. The team that wins the champion is the team that maximizes its resources while appropriately marginalizing their weaknesses; the exception to this rule is the 2006 Heat team, who had a lot of help from the Zebra Gang. However, I digress. This team needs to play at a much slower, calculated pace. Two cardinal predicaments with this system, without authoring a weighty tome, are:
1. Far too many threes. Quick three-pointers, early in the shot clock, lead to long rebounds, which lead to fast breaks. Anyone who has played basketball at 'just' the highschool level knows this. If we make an effort to gets things going at the rim, whether through drives, or post ups, we'll give ourselves an opportunity to a) get to the foul line, and b) get back on defense, even if it a 'point-less' offensive trip.
2. Every player has a great deal of offensive freedom. I don't want to see Metta getting more shots than Dwight Howard, or Pau Gasol (despite his poor play). I don't want to see Metta awkwardly dribble into the paint, with his absurdly underdeveloped handle, only to create a turnover or throw up an ill-advised shot. I don't want to see Jodie Meeks try to get into the paint, either. Players need roles, and on the offensive end, all the players on this team are designated "scorers" (aside from Jordan Hill, who puts in work to rebound the ball). I don't want to see anyone defend Metta, either. I think he has great value on the defensive end, but he really needs to shoot the ball at a lower rate; I think his noteworthy shooting, thus far, has been an anomaly, and he'll go back to shooting at the substandard percentage he has throughout his entire career. I mean, he's 2/14 from beyond the arc in his last three games.

richboy wrote:Pau isn't the issue in my books because I fully expect when he is traded that he go to another team and put up 18 and 11 and 4 assist and suddenly be the same player we saw in the past. Kobe said it. After winning the title this team decided Bynum was the go to post guy and it hasn't been the same since for Pau. I don't think there anything physically different from Pau Game 7 in the finals to now. What is difference is instead of getting 25 touches in the post he is getting under 10. Some games under 5. You can call it an excuse but things like shooting were just the icing on Gasol's game. Icing is good with the cake. You can't just serve Icing. Gasol and Dwight can not establish any rhythm. They get a touch here. They get a touch there. Nothing consistent. Nobody that has played the game could expect Gasol to play well in his current circumstances.

I think Pau has been an issue. He hasn't been assertive, and he's playing basketball like he was brought up believing it to be a "no contact" sport. His heart doesn't seem to be in it. Physically, he 'may' be there, but he's wandered into a twisted abyss psychologically. However, I absolutely agree that Pau and Dwight cannot establish any rhythm. If we buy the premise that these two aren't doing anything with the ball once they receive it, we should attach the argument that these two are not being given the opportunity to get themselves in a rhythm, or develop any consistency. In contrast, we've all seen Kobe go through major slumps, only to continue shooting until he finds some rhythm.

DEEP3CL wrote:What is the exact point of this thread ?

There is no need to over analyze things, the team and management should know what they are. And it has nothing to do with coaching. A lot of this is at the players feet. They have to solve it.

I like D'Antoni as a coach, and actually believe him to have a highly respectable basketball IQ. I think he's figuring this thing out on the fly, and he's made some impressive short-term adjustments. There is a problem with our system, though. I think we rank tenth in points in the paint; we should be in the top five, easily. Our team is third in 3PFA, despite the fact that we have horrible three-point shooters. These are just a couple things that stand out. Like I said, I really respect D'Antoni's knowledge of the game, but I doubt he'll make the most cardinal adjustments.

I completely agree that this is, as you so appropriately phrased it, "at the players' feet". I've said this before, and I'll say it again. There is absolutely no focus on the defensive end, and aside from those beautiful moments where Nash is dictating the offense, there's no chemistry on the offensive end. There'll be times where Nash is on the floor, but he'll force-feed Kobe to get his gamely quota of ISO basketball. I think Kobe is a top ten player (all time), and have absolutely enjoyed watching his game. However, the Kobe that we see now mirrors the Kobe we saw when Smush Parker was our starting point guard. There have been countless times where Kobe has looked off the open man to try to get his; this exhibits a lack of trust, which transfers over to the defensive side of the ball. This team is playing with no patience, or unity, on either end of the floor. At the same time, I think the defense will improve itself, but only to a certain extent. Team defense improves with collective experience, right?

I could go on, and on, and on, but I won't. I know this team will make the playoffs without any personnel changes. The playoffs aren't the goal though, are they?

laduane1 wrote:I fell asleep reading the opening post. Get to the point. We do not need to read 1,000 words.

And you woke up to tell us that? Thanks, hombre.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#87 » by CraZyPraiZ » Thu Jan 3, 2013 2:18 pm

GeneralNash wrote:I just wonder if his leadership style is doing more damage than good. It is good to see he wants to push Dwight to the next level:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zjxD3MJI61Y[/youtube]

Average Celtics during their 2008 championship run were older than this team, and they were not being called old and slow....they were probably remembered as being tough, and passionate. Lakers identity is quickly becoming "old and slow" and that is not a good thing.

The reality is they don't seem to have the passion to win. That is why when they come out in the 1st quarter a lot of times this season, they get off to slow starts.


Dwight has already started to check out. A change of scenario does not change one's character. He checked out of Orlando while his team had a winning record. I am sure he would not mind being 3rd fiddle on a team if they were winning. He wanted more touches in Orlando and he wants to be the man which he will never be. Most rational people would give this current team a 2 year window at best. I am starting to believe that Dwight is gone once the season is over. Just wait till Cuban starts coddling him.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#88 » by leeprettyp » Thu Jan 3, 2013 3:18 pm

SMH. Another thread bashing Kobe! It only makes sense to blame the guy who leaves it on the court every single game UNREAL. At times i wish we could just push out these player fans and bandwagon fans everywhere. The biggest issue I see IMO is Dwight isnt healthy and cant help Kobe carry us yet. You can see it he blows by his man every play but has to collect himself before he can jump which results in him either being stripped or the defense being able to recover and crowd him. Another issue is Gasol just aint Gasol anymore period on either end. If we're not gonna use him as the focal point in the post (Mike D. rather have him chucking 3's smh)and on the other end run more zone defense to help compensate for his weak pic n roll defense (wasnt always like that but is now) he's hurting us. Sux because unlike alot of fake fans I'm a huge fan of Pau's but this is the truth. Maybe bring Pau off the bench as the 2nd string Center and start Jamison or Metta at the PF to space the floor more for Nash, Kobe and Dwight? Also I love what Metta is doing out there but its getting a lil silly IMO we dont need our 5th best player shooting 15 shoots.

Anyway I'm not giving up on this team. I never give up on my Lakers. Maybe some of you should learn LOYALTY to 1 team. I just want us healthy come playoff time and it wont be a team that can stop both Dwight and Kobe with Nash on the SAME TEAM. IMO its obvious we're just not healthy and our franchise Center being the main guy out there when he's not
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#89 » by Kilroy » Thu Jan 3, 2013 3:27 pm

Kobe's offense has been exceptional with few exceptions...
His leadership has been fine.
I think I'd personally take a bit of a trade-off on giving up some of his efficient offense for him to focus a bit more on Defense.
We lack a perimeter presence on D, and while I agree that MWP should be the enforcer, we need Kobe to step up on D too...

If our D improved, especially our perimeter D, we'd get more transition opportunities.

So Kobe's definitely not the problem, but I think he maybe could be a bigger part of the solution.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#90 » by Neutral 123 » Thu Jan 3, 2013 4:01 pm

Yeah sounds almost conciliatory. I wouldn't expect Kobe to give up, but it seems like he's gone from shock that the team wouldn't put in the effort, to maybe seeing the team just isn't good enough. Hell, that's pretty hard to believe, but if Kobe believes it. He might be right.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#91 » by dockingsched » Thu Jan 3, 2013 4:04 pm

leeprettyp wrote:SMH. Another thread bashing Kobe! It only makes sense to blame the guy who leaves it on the court every single game UNREAL.


why do people say that? he takes almost every other play off on defense, never fighting through screens, slow to run out at shooters, and consistently losing track of his man.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#92 » by Slava » Thu Jan 3, 2013 4:28 pm

Beard wrote:I guess I would question then how the Lakers hope to compete from now until Kobe's retirement. Unless they're okay with 1st or 2nd round bounces for a few years prior to the rebuild. This is the Lakers, for crying out loud. They can have any free agent they want if they're willing to give him the keys.


Constructive criticism is well and good but posts like yours are pretty much sneakily disguised attempts at trolling.

I really don't understand why the goal posts are regularly moved wide when it comes to judging Kobe Bryant. One moment a ridiculously biased stat that we are like 4-10 or something when he scores 30+ and then when we suddenly win 6 games in a row with him scoring at the same volume, its his defense that's the issue and afterwards its his leadership.

We are essentially expecting him to be '08 Garnett, '06 Kobe and 60s Bill Russell in one package at the tender age of 34 and in his 17th NBA season on a team loaded with a previous MVP, multiple defensive player of the year winners and one of the greatest European big men to play the game.

You do not expect him to set the tone on defense, he doesn't have to, he's not a big man that can erase others mistakes and anchor a defense like KG did in '08. We essentially brought in a guy to do just that and he's no rookie either.

Its not much old age as it is about not having a defensive scheme, the center not shouting and communicating with the perimeter guys and the guys defending the pick n' roll not being on the same page and worse yet, Pau Gasol not even taking accountability for his own lapses.

Does Kobe make mistakes by not sticking to shooters? Yes. Then just put him on a guy that's a dribble penetration threat and he will be forced to stick to his man on the ball instead of concentrating off the ball. There's no one size fits all in basketball, you just need to adjust and move on.

Its not just outlandish to think that we might win 15 games in a row without our best player, its just stupid. You'll be hard pressed to find a franchise player of the same caliber for another 10 years once Kobe retires (see Bulls after Jordan). Everyone has a right to act foolish once in a while but just don't abuse the privilege.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#93 » by Michael Lucky » Thu Jan 3, 2013 4:33 pm

I don't mind him being candid like this. It has little to do with leadershiip in my opinion. where he fails in that department is when he doesn't even bother setting any tone for his teammates on Defense which is our biggest problem.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#94 » by NeedForSheed » Thu Jan 3, 2013 5:32 pm

Like everyone has been saying, the problem is Bryant's defense and that Howard isn't playing well and Gasol is terrible, along with our bench. Kobe's scoring, in my opinion, is keeping us in games at the moment.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#95 » by madmaxmedia » Thu Jan 3, 2013 6:59 pm

GeneralNash wrote:I understand what he's trying to do, but I don't think it's a good idea to reiterate negatives about the team. Age isn't the biggest factor with last game's loss...it's just a bad convenient excuse.


He wasn't using it as an excuse. I understand you don't want to be negative, but I really don't believe he was- he is one of those old as *** guys himself! His point was that you start by acknowledging your weaknesses, and that is what allows you to adjust or compensate. He said there was going to be nights where their shots are short, the legs are a bit slow, and the other team is running around like jackrabbits. If you acknowledge this, then you can prepare and figure out ways to compensate and WIN. He basically said all those things in a radio interview yesterday.

2012-2013 Average Laker Age: 28.5yrs

2008 Boston Celtics Championship team Average Age: 28.8yrs


Don't just look at average age, look at average of starters, or say all players with significant MPG. The Knicks right now have a really old average age, but majority of the starters are younger and a couple of bench guys (Kurt Thomas, Camby) really skew their age. I'm not sure about that Celtics squad though.

But what really compounds the Lakers age is their lack of depth. They haven't been able to to build up a good crew of supporting pieces to fill in the gaps and address the Lakers' weaknesses. Almost all the primary Laker players have 13+ years. Individually, it's not a problem just as an individual's height doesn't dictate their success. But team quickness/speed, team height, team age is important.

Another thing compounding the problem is that the 1 main guy in the starting lineup who doesn't have 13+ years NBA experience/mileage, is still recovering from major back surgery and is playing much slower and stiffer than he normally would.

As you say, none of this is an excuse to lose. But you have to realistically look at your strengths and weaknesses, and figure out how to maximize what you do have.
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Re: What Exactly Is The Issue? 

Post#96 » by madmaxmedia » Thu Jan 3, 2013 7:13 pm

The Spurs are a good counter-argument to the age thing. However, the Spurs have consistently done a great job of building supporting pieces around their big 3. I don't know what their average age is, but they have significant contributors who are younger. The majority of the Knicks starters are younger, its a few guys like Kidd, Thomas, Camby that skew the 'average' age.

Now look at the Lakers. Nash, Kobe, Gasol, Metta, Jamison all have 13+ years I believe in the league. Howard is not old but for the time being unfortunately is stiff and balky until he fully recovers from surgery. The Lakers don't have a great bench, forcing all the older players to carry the load (mainly Kobe). You can say Kobe shouldn't shoot so much or play so many minutes, it's great to say on a message board but in these games Kobe is often the main factor keeping them in games. There are certain possessions in games where they really need a bucket, and then rely on Kobe to deliver. I get how that can be sort of a chicken-egg thing, the problem is the Lakers can't afford to lose any winnable games going forward.

If the Lakers had the Clippers bench then I agree none of this is a problem. But they don't. It's not age alone, but add it all together and you will have a lot of nights where the team looks flat and slow.

I still believe the team will make the playoffs and can possibly make significant noise. But as Kobe says they need to acknowledge their weaknesses, so that they can adjust and compensate for them.

You suggestion that they need to play a more calculated, deliberate game is one way of doing this, so I think we are basically saying the same overall thing in different ways.
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Re: What Exactly Is The Issue? 

Post#97 » by tenten » Thu Jan 3, 2013 7:31 pm

The issue is Howard.

He's no where near his Orlando days, heck, he's no where near last year's Bynum.
not talking about stats, but how many times you see him get the ball in the paint and turn the ball over?
His bball IQ is way below average and seem to have gotten worse.

Pau always have up and downs and Kobe is Kobe. Nash was hurt most of the times. So I will point most of this Laker mess on Dwight not close to meeting expectation. If you're hurt, then don't even play. I see we win more games with Pau and Hill getting starter minutes.
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Re: What Exactly Is The Issue? 

Post#98 » by ennui » Thu Jan 3, 2013 10:07 pm

There a multitude of reasons for which we are where we are. First and foremost, I would like to touch on what may be perceived as major issues, but are rather minor in comparison.

Kobe's defense, while admittedly awful, isn't an integral reason for our woes. Kobe's regular season defense hasn't changed much in application within the last 5 or so years, defensive accolades be damned. We were successful in spite of it. Kobe's offense, again while seemingly selfish and haphazard, has kept us afloat during droughts and lulls. Should Kobe be doing his hero ball thing at the end of the game? Preferably, no. But that is a symptom -- not the disease. It should be apparent that Kobe takes matters into his own hands when there is no offensive flow or consistency. Especially when the golden boy Steve Nash is being acquiescent (not much mention of this, no surprise, he is God after all). He turns down open shots, almost as if to preserve his percentages (speculation). But a huge reason why he was acquired was to space the floor, instead he is making Kapono/Mike Miller blush with his passivity.

Dwight Howard's offensive deficiencies are being magnified by his lack of lift and explosion and he largely doesn't possess the low post skill to compensate. Realize though, if he is given the ball in the proper spots consistently with adequate spacing he can still control a game, as evidenced by his play within the Princeton under Mike Brown.

This segues into my next point, which is the meat and bones of our issues, the system. This system is not suited for our personnel. Plain and simple. This is not a run and gun team. Kobe alluded to it with his old age quote and he is spot on. We simply cannot force the ball down the other team's throat because we don't have the energy or legs to prosper like that. Often, I see us work our way back into a game only to take a long three which ignites fast breaks for younger teams, allowing them to come back into games. We're playing into opposing teams hands. Teams want the likes of Jodie Meeks and Darius Morris to take quick, questionable shots, rather than have to deal with Kobe/D12/Nash.

Furthermore, this is a team with proficient post players who are not allowed to venture into the post, effectively negating our biggest advantage. Rather than having a system that allows, hell encourages post ups, we have a perimeter-oriented system helmed by old players who are on their way out in the near future. Not only will utilizing our post advantage give us the ability to control the pace, it can help our defense to get set, as there will be less long rebounds.

As much as Steve Nash's wizardry led those Phoenix Suns offenses to extraordinary heights, it did not occur in a vacuum. Gmatcallahan had an excellent post in the "Lakers get Steve Nash" thread on how those Phoenix Suns teams had the optimal roster to run the MDA 1/4 spread pick and roll system consistently. Not to take any credit away from Steve Nash, because he was obviously the maestro of the symphony, but it takes more than him to play that way and we don't have personnel who are equipped with the same tools.

Also, Dwight Howard's defense is not up to his usual lofty standards. He can't currently shrink the floor and be the ultra-dominant defensive anchor he has previously been and that is killing us. This is further exacerbated by his moping and lethargy on the defensive end when he goes multiple possessions without touching the ball. His ability to help and recover has increasingly diminished and that is compounded by the mediocre defenders we field. If he was at a hundred percent, our ineptness at perimeter defense would be considerably lessened.

Finally, Pau Gasol's all-around game and role within the offense. Pau is hampered with tendinitis and plantar fasciitis, sure I get that. I don't know how much that is contributing to his pathetic defense, but the truth is IDGAF. Some of this could be overlooked if he was enriching the offense, but he has been utterly garbage on that end too. Now, some of you may be aware that I am a proponent of Gasol, and I still believe a healthy Pau in a suitable system can still be highly effective, but I also like to believe I can be objective on this issue. And that is trade the guy as soon as you can, Lakers org, because he has been a thorn in our side penetrating deeper than any opponent has.

Obviously, things like chemistry and undefined roles are hurting us, but those are issues that organically sort themselves out. I believe the prior issues listed are not. They are solutions to those that can be implemented today.

Kobe sees this and is basically pleading to the org/coach/players to rectify it and hopefully we do. Because as much as people want to complain about players not having the energy or the legs to make this work, we have to call a spade a spade. If we could somehow get physical augmentations for our players, such as bionic legs (or a working heart for Pau) this system could work. But that is not the case nor will it ever be.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#99 » by kblo247 » Thu Jan 3, 2013 10:22 pm

GeneralNash wrote:Hate to admit it being a Laker fan and a Kobe fan but he is not doing a great job of leading his team in any respect. I see a great performance from him overall, but from a leadership standpoint, I have seen nothing but negative comments from Kobe to the media. Things like this:

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/stor ... ack-energy

To me this isn't good leadership. Boston was an old and pretty slow team when they won their last ring, it's not like it hasn't been done before. Kobe is creating excuses and making stupid remarks. You can't call your team old and slow and expect your team to gain confidence in itself. Yes they are older and slower than a lot of teams, but that isn't the reason they are losing. Do you really want to ingrain "old and slow" into your teammates heads? Negative reinforcements won't help this team succeed.

First off I'm no Kobe hater but a big fan. I actually rank him just below Lebron this season from an individual player stand point.

Hate to see Kobe waste a season, and Nash waste the last two seasons of his career. The leader needs to believe they can contend and win. And right now, Kobe has that "Loser" mentality and is spreading it like a virus. It starts with the confidence and the belief you can win every night, and a leader should be instilling that in his team.



The Celtic rotation guys were
- Pierce, Allen, KG, Posey, Powe, Perk, Rondo, House, and Sam/PJ who both joined late

The Knicks heavy rotation guys have been
- Felton, Kidd, Brewer, Melo, Tyson, Novak, JR, Prigioni, and Sheed

The Lkers major minutes have went to
- Kobe, Nash, Pau, Dwight off back surgery, MWP, Duhon, Meeks, Jamison, Morrison, and Hill


Why are you accounting for the likes of Clark, Ebanks, DJO, and Sacre to ring the age down when they don't sniff the court? Why are you ignoring that the Lakers man rotation guys especially Kobe hardly sit to go with their age, unlike the Knciks rotation or those Celtics in 08?
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#100 » by GeneralNash » Thu Jan 3, 2013 10:26 pm

I'm really not knocking Kobe overall, it's just his lack of leadership. I don't hear about desperate team meetings, emergency team meetings, and players crying in the locker room. That Miami Heat team in their first year were crying like babies in that locker room, and that's what the Lakers need to do. This team lacks cohesion, and that has to be a big part of Kobe's fault. The way things are going they need to start having private players meeting before every game.

It is a question of how Kobe can get his teammates on another level, emotionally, mentally, etc. Kobe obviously can get himself on that level, but he can't seem to transfer it to his team. And it doesn't just fall on Kobe, part of the blame goes to Nash. Kobe, Nash, and Dwight have to get together and figure it out. Have a team BBQ, do some team bonding, talk it out, do something besides half-assing games everyone knows they should win.

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