RealGM Top 100 List -- 2011

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#721 » by ronnymac2 » Mon Jan 7, 2013 9:10 am

I don't know man. It's not just that Dwight is at 80 percent health right now. It's also that Dwight is being used in an odd way, and he has less support than he did in Orlando (in certain ways). So what you're seeing is Dwight at like, 60 percent of his normal effectiveness.

Offensively, Dwight used to be a monster on the pick-n-roll by sucking the defenders of corner 3-pointer shooters in. That would open things up from the perimeter. Then Dwight would have 1 vs. 1 coverage on a few iso's per game. Dwight isn't as limited offensively 1 vs. 1 as many still think.

Thing is, the Lakers don't use him for that as much. They have terrible spacing, so his iso's are more difficult, and with worse mobility and rhythm, he's turning the ball over a lot.

This is my issue with the Lakers: Kobe Bryant has been incredibly efficient this season, and the Lakers offense isn't directly the problem. However, I think they can improve the offense. I think they should give Nash the keys and let him play pick-n-roll with Howard. Let him do the same with Pau while using Howard as a finisher threat (similar to how the Nash/Amare pick-n-roll worked with Shaq as a finisher threat back in 2008 or 2009 or whatever it was). Nash can get the bigs involved in a way that Kobe cannot (not hating on Kobe, but Nash is an elite distributor).

This would allow Kobe to pick his spots and still play off other people and attack. I think this is a more sustainable model for Kobe, and it should allow him to have more energy on defense as well.

This makes better use of Howard in that it puts Dwight in a better position to score on quick hits, meaning defenses don't have as much time to react and force a turnover or tough shot.


Defensively, Howard and World Peace are out there by themselves. The Lakers have no bench defense, Gasol is horrendous defending at the PF position, and Nash and Kobe are below average defenders at this point. SVG had a nice system built around a healthy all-time defensive anchor in Dwight. Pringles doesn't emphasize defense, the Lakers have one other solid defender on the team beside an 80 percent health Howard. The Lakers defense is worse than the team D rating indicates.

I'm predicting the Lakers finish with an ultra-powerful offense. I think they'll finish with an average defense which will be misleading, because I think come playoff time, when teams can hone in on weaknesses, the Lakers D will get picked apart in embarrassing fashion. I don't think the Lakers have any chance of making it out of the West.



Long story short: The fact that Dwight is putting up 17/12 on good efficiency and with good defense is an indicator to me that 39th on this list for a 100 percent Howard is fair.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#722 » by Doormatt » Mon Jan 7, 2013 9:30 am

ronnymac2 wrote:I don't know man. It's not just that Dwight is at 80 percent health right now. It's also that Dwight is being used in an odd way, and he has less support than he did in Orlando (in certain ways). So what you're seeing is Dwight at like, 60 percent of his normal effectiveness.

Offensively, Dwight used to be a monster on the pick-n-roll by sucking the defenders of corner 3-pointer shooters in. That would open things up from the perimeter. Then Dwight would have 1 vs. 1 coverage on a few iso's per game. Dwight isn't as limited offensively 1 vs. 1 as many still think.

Thing is, the Lakers don't use him for that as much. They have terrible spacing, so his iso's are more difficult, and with worse mobility and rhythm, he's turning the ball over a lot.

This is my issue with the Lakers: Kobe Bryant has been incredibly efficient this season, and the Lakers offense isn't directly the problem. However, I think they can improve the offense. I think they should give Nash the keys and let him play pick-n-roll with Howard. Let him do the same with Pau while using Howard as a finisher threat (similar to how the Nash/Amare pick-n-roll worked with Shaq as a finisher threat back in 2008 or 2009 or whatever it was). Nash can get the bigs involved in a way that Kobe cannot (not hating on Kobe, but Nash is an elite distributor).

This would allow Kobe to pick his spots and still play off other people and attack. I think this is a more sustainable model for Kobe, and it should allow him to have more energy on defense as well.

This makes better use of Howard in that it puts Dwight in a better position to score on quick hits, meaning defenses don't have as much time to react and force a turnover or tough shot.


Defensively, Howard and World Peace are out there by themselves. The Lakers have no bench defense, Gasol is horrendous defending at the PF position, and Nash and Kobe are below average defenders at this point. SVG had a nice system built around a healthy all-time defensive anchor in Dwight. Pringles doesn't emphasize defense, the Lakers have one other solid defender on the team beside an 80 percent health Howard. The Lakers defense is worse than the team D rating indicates.

I'm predicting the Lakers finish with an ultra-powerful offense. I think they'll finish with an average defense which will be misleading, because I think come playoff time, when teams can hone in on weaknesses, the Lakers D will get picked apart in embarrassing fashion. I don't think the Lakers have any chance of making it out of the West.



Long story short: The fact that Dwight is putting up 17/12 on good efficiency and with good defense is an indicator to me that 39th on this list for a 100 percent Howard is fair.


wonderfully stated. everything in this post is spot on from what ive seen from the lakers. also to add on to their defensive woes, its especially terrible because they force no turnovers and exert basically zero pressure on the opponents ball handlers. they dont really communicate that well or either dont have much practice defensively. today there was a play where nash thought kobe was going to switch onto lawson but he didnt so they both gave him up, nobody rotated, and they gave up a wide open layup. kind of the perfect summation of the lakers defense thus far. that and their 3 primary ball handlers, iggy, lawson and miller, combined for 27 assists with just TWO turnovers. so the lakers defensive problems really have nothing to do with dwight, although he could be better.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#723 » by ElGee » Mon Jan 7, 2013 9:43 pm

therealbig3 wrote:So, I have to say, I'm thinking Dwight Howard was seriously overrated both here and in the peaks project, myself included. His portability and his defense has been overstated, based on what we've seen from him this season so far. And his offense is really not that impressive imo. And looking at Orlando, they haven't completely fallen apart without him like many expected they would. Their defense has actually held up admirably, 14th so far.

So, thoughts on Dwight after considering Orlando's and Los Angeles's seasons?

I do understand that he's still not 100% physically, but I figured an 80% Dwight Howard would be better than this.


Yeah you have to watch to understand the issues.

First, Bryant's still ridiculously skilled one-on-one, but he has to work harder than ever to overcome his athletic decline to get shots. Probably as a result of this, he's jacking up shots the second he gets any breathing room because it's such a relief for him to have space these days. 26 shots and 33.5% USG over the last 10 games isn't optimal on any team...but whether you think that's sustainable or not, the issue really has to do with translating to defense.

Lots of one-on-one, long iso jumpers and the cluttered basketball that can result are killing LA in transition defense. Curious, I checked the fastbreak defense stats and the Lakers are DEAD last, at 15.9 ppg in transition (at nearly 2 ppp). Bryant's somewhat incredible efficiency has helped LA's offense thus far, but the tradeoff looks far worse to me -- I'd rather he exert way more energy on defense and be used as an off-ball threat on offense (he is a well above-average spot-up shooter), and allow the transition defense to set better as the offensive floor is balanced. This is something, ironically, Phil Jackson heavily emphasized in the triangle.

The team has other issues, of course, like health and coaching transitions (why is Mike Brown's staff still there?). But Howard is not to blame for the transition defense. His turnovers on offense also inflate that number, but as ronnymac said, he's being used in a cluttered manner and not in as many Tyson Chandler-spots. And the guy still isn't moving well -- he looks stiff and like he's quick sand a bit.

For perspective, how much does 3 turnovers leading to easy (~2 ppp) buckets on the other end impact the DRtg and the SRS? It's about 3 points a game difference, which would mean the Lakers would have a predicted record of about 22-11 right now, with about the 8th or 9th-best defense in the league.

To summarize, offense impact defense/transition D, Howard's health and some otherwise clunky defensive schemes (there's a LOT of pointing fingers after giving up wide open layups from breakdowns on backside help) are heavily influencing the defensive numbers and thus the SRS of this team. I don't much see it as indictment on 2005-2012 Howard at all, since he's not health and playing with a team that's a mess on defense, starting with its own offensive scheme.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#724 » by MacGill » Mon Jan 7, 2013 11:16 pm

Well said Ronnymac & ElGee.

When this trade went down I said the immediate future of LA goes on how Kobe responds to the new additions. At that time I stated that Kobe needed to let the offence go through Nash/Howard and even get Pau many more easy buckets. 20-22ppg while using more energy defensively. Team dynamic has seen Kobe resort back to universal solider mode.

And in a sense I do not blame Kobe, as Dwight still doesn't appear to be 100% healthy but this is the part as pointed out where he needs to trust in his peer stars and get others more involved, even if it means a loss. It has nothing to do with how efficient or great individually a season Bryant is having but if LA makes the playoffs, this formula will not do well and their fitment will see an early first round exit.

I have watched quite a few LA games this year and Kobe could use his high BballIQ to get his at the expense of not needing the ball as he gets it. It certainly doesn't help when others aren't making theirs (hence why I don't blame him going back to what he always did) but he isn't able to shoulder the load alone and needs himself to help make the change to get more players touches.

At this point, it isn't even about the losses which are coming anyway, it is for the betterment of the team. I think Dwight is feeling the pressure something I did not think early on he would be able to handle and Nash has to be set free. There are players on that team that can still run, including Kobe but it is amazing what some easy looks to the basket etc can do for health problems and guys who just look like they don't even want to ball.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#725 » by therealbig3 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:19 pm

Ok, other internal debates I've been having, wondering what other people think:

Kobe vs Bird...Kobe's got some very nice longevity going for him right now...a 10 year prime imo (01-10), and then he's got 5 other years during which he's still one of the best players in the league, but not in his prime (99, 00, 11, 12, 13). Bird had a 7 year prime (82-88), and 5 other years during which he's still one of the best players in the league, but not in his prime (80, 81, 90, 91, 92)...but he barely played in 92. Anyway, we can all agree that Bird at his best was better than Kobe at his best, but Kobe has 3 more years in terms of prime longevity, and he's healthier and probably ranks higher among the game's elite during his last 3 non-prime years than Bird did from 90-92.

KG vs Bird...similar to Kobe's argument, and KG's peak is closer to Bird's. And since many people consider Duncan vs Bird a legitimate debate, and since many of those same people also consider KG and Duncan pretty much equals...wouldn't it logically make sense to consider KG vs Bird as well?

And finally...does Duncan's season so far have any effect on how people view him all time, similar to how KG's 2011 and 2012 seasons seriously impressed some people?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#726 » by ardee » Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:42 pm

therealbig3 wrote:Ok, other internal debates I've been having, wondering what other people think:

Kobe vs Bird...Kobe's got some very nice longevity going for him right now...a 10 year prime imo (01-10), and then he's got 5 other years during which he's still one of the best players in the league, but not in his prime (99, 00, 11, 12, 13). Bird had a 7 year prime (82-88), and 5 other years during which he's still one of the best players in the league, but not in his prime (80, 81, 90, 91, 92)...but he barely played in 92. Anyway, we can all agree that Bird at his best was better than Kobe at his best, but Kobe has 3 more years in terms of prime longevity, and he's healthier and probably ranks higher among the game's elite during his last 3 non-prime years than Bird did from 90-92.

KG vs Bird...similar to Kobe's argument, and KG's peak is closer to Bird's. And since many people consider Duncan vs Bird a legitimate debate, and since many of those same people also consider KG and Duncan pretty much equals...wouldn't it logically make sense to consider KG vs Bird as well?

And finally...does Duncan's season so far have any effect on how people view him all time, similar to how KG's 2011 and 2012 seasons seriously impressed some people?


Where do you have them ranked right now?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#727 » by therealbig3 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:33 pm

6. Bird
7. Duncan

9. KG


12. Kobe
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#728 » by TheChosen618 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:55 pm

If I had to make a top 10 list, this would probably be mine

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Lebron James
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Tim Duncan

Note - If Lebron were to have season/career ending injury and never become the same player again today then I think he should be at #11 with Kobe and Duncan at #9 and #10 instead. I have Lebron at #9 because I think it's pretty much inevitable that he will be after this season.

This is just my 2 cents on the top 10, which is the most important to most people. I don't think a whole lot of people really care much past the top 20 really.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#729 » by colts18 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:57 pm

therealbig3 wrote:So, I have to say, I'm thinking Dwight Howard was seriously overrated both here and in the peaks project, myself included. His portability and his defense has been overstated, based on what we've seen from him this season so far. And his offense is really not that impressive imo. And looking at Orlando, they haven't completely fallen apart without him like many expected they would. Their defense has actually held up admirably, 14th so far.

So, thoughts on Dwight after considering Orlando's and Los Angeles's seasons?

I do understand that he's still not 100% physically, but I figured an 80% Dwight Howard would be better than this.

What are you talking about? Orlando has sucked this year without Howard

12 Magic w/Howard: 1.42 SRS, .611 win%, 102.22 D rating (8th in NBA)
13 Magic no Howard: -3.98 SRS, .359 win%, 106.7 D Rating (21st in NBA)
Difference: 5.40 SRS, .252 win% (21 win difference), 4.48 D rating

Remember this is with Orlando adding defensive guys like Afflalo and getting rid of No defense guys like JRich, Anderson, and Duhon.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#730 » by The Explorer » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:39 am

Not much love for Walt bellamy or George mikan in this thread....
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#731 » by penbeast0 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:33 am

Mikan wasn't eligible as the list was limited to post shot clock era; Bells got very little support it's true.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#732 » by ardee » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:50 pm

therealbig3 wrote:6. Bird
7. Duncan

9. KG


12. Kobe


RealGM has really changed my mind on Garnett but I still find it hard to understand how one can justify ranking him in the top 10.

And I don't get it, if you're saying Kobe vs. Bird is a debate in your mind, are you insinuating that you'd move Kobe to 6?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#733 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:08 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Mikan wasn't eligible as the list was limited to post shot clock era; Bells got very little support it's true.

I always felt that was an issue with the last top 100 list (I obviously was not around to comment).

I honestly would have liked for it to have just been restricted. I mean peak play was suppose to be an important part of the criteria anyway, and Mikan peak does not compare to most of the players. I just think the list would have balanced itself out regardless if whether there were pre shot clock players.

My biggest gripe is that I would have really loved to hear arguments for guys from the pre shot clock eras. Dig up some nice info, learn about their styles and accomplishments. I hope for the next top 100 we get rid of the arbitrary restriction.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#734 » by chales_zed » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:49 pm

colts18 wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:So, I have to say, I'm thinking Dwight Howard was seriously overrated both here and in the peaks project, myself included. His portability and his defense has been overstated, based on what we've seen from him this season so far. And his offense is really not that impressive imo. And looking at Orlando, they haven't completely fallen apart without him like many expected they would. Their defense has actually held up admirably, 14th so far.

So, thoughts on Dwight after considering Orlando's and Los Angeles's seasons?

I do understand that he's still not 100% physically, but I figured an 80% Dwight Howard would be better than this.

What are you talking about? Orlando has sucked this year without Howard

12 Magic w/Howard: 1.42 SRS, .611 win%, 102.22 D rating (8th in NBA)
13 Magic no Howard: -3.98 SRS, .359 win%, 106.7 D Rating (21st in NBA)
Difference: 5.40 SRS, .252 win% (21 win difference), 4.48 D rating

Remember this is with Orlando adding defensive guys like Afflalo and getting rid of No defense guys like JRich, Anderson, and Duhon.


That Orlando team was built around Dwight, and it lost it's 2nd best player who is a highly valued PF prospect around the league. Ryan Anderson is 17/7 on .400 3PT% with 19.5 PER as of 31/01/12.

You can take almost any elite team in the league, remove it's top two players and expect a comparable result.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#735 » by Laazard » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:50 pm

Where would D-Wade rank as of right now? Top20 already?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#736 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Mar 5, 2013 7:22 am

Hey, was there ever any serious discussion on adding Paul Pressey to the list? I think he has a case over some of the guys in the late 90s for sure.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#737 » by dreamchaser » Thu Mar 7, 2013 3:30 pm

Laazard wrote:Where would D-Wade rank as of right now? Top20 already?

I was wondering the same thing...

And do you guys still have Clyde Drexler over Dwyane Wade?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#738 » by DanDanE420 » Sat Mar 9, 2013 9:55 pm

Laazard wrote:Where would D-Wade rank as of right now? Top20 already?


I think so. And I understand given the time period (June 2011), but there is zero argument for Dirk over Wade.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#739 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sat Mar 9, 2013 10:13 pm

DanDanE420 wrote:
Laazard wrote:Where would D-Wade rank as of right now? Top20 already?


I think so. And I understand given the time period (June 2011), but there is zero argument for Dirk over Wade.

Huh? Dirk is definitely higher than Wade.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 

Post#740 » by dreamchaser » Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:10 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
DanDanE420 wrote:
Laazard wrote:Where would D-Wade rank as of right now? Top20 already?


I think so. And I understand given the time period (June 2011), but there is zero argument for Dirk over Wade.

Huh? Dirk is definitely higher than Wade.

:o :lol: ok Skip Bayless. Dirk is not higher than Wade. Dirk's team when he won the MVP award back in 2007 his numbers were very identical to Wades and actually Wade's was better and finished with the leagues highest PER that year. But by Wade missing 31 games and his team finishing 44-38 while Dirk's team finished 67-15 you won't here any complaints from me about Dirk winning the award but my point is his stats have never really dominated Wade's numbers...

06-07 Dirk - 24.6ppg, 8.9rebs, 3.4asts...

06-07 Wade - 27.4ppg, 4.7rebs, 7.5asts...

And not to mention that year that the Heat were dealing injuries to not only Wade but our coach Riley too. What's funny is Even though Wade missed 31 games that season he still finished with the NBA's leading PER. Dirk is higher on the all-time scoring list & of course rebs because he's a damn PF. I don't even after explain how many times Wade has got robbed of the NBA All-First team but I mean hey he's lost it to a top 10 great of all-time in Kobe Bryant. Dwyane Wade in 10 seasons is a career averaging 24.9ppg, 5.1rebs, 6.1asts & 1.0 blkpg, has 2 NBA championships, 1 NBA Finals MVP, 3x time All-Defensive 2nd Team, 2x All-NBA 1st Team (Should have won it in again in 2011 but read what I said up there about Kobe) 1x scoring champion & The best shot blocking guard of All-Time.

Dirk's stats is impressive tho, in 15 seasons he is a career averaging 22.7ppg, 8.2rebs, & 2.6ppg, 1 NBA Championship, 1 NBA Finals MVP, 4x All-NBA 1st Team, the only player in the NBA with 150 three-pointers and 100 blocks in a single season, one of only four players with an NBA Playoff career average of 25 ppg and 10 rpg, One of only five players to become a member of the 50–40–90 Club, one of eleven players to have been NBA Champion, NBA regular season MVP, NBA Finals MVP and a 10× NBA All-Star, one of only three players to surpass the mark of 1000 in both three-pointers and blocks for the career, holds the record for most free-throws made in a single playoff season with 205 free-throws made & set a playoff record for most free throws made without a miss with 24...

But Wade is by far a more complete player than Dirk as you can see by their career averages and on top of that Wade still has 3-4 good seasons left in him so he still has a lot of time to break records, while Dirk is on the verge of retiring. As far as winning the MVP award of the regular season he'll never do that with LeBron James playing at the level he is at and the NBA riding Kobe Bryant play of recently. But Dwyane still has a good chance to win another Finals MVP award because he's still playing at a high level and it's no question who was the best Heat player on the floor in the 2011 NBA Finals where Dirk won his first NBA Championship & Finals MVP. D-Wade put on one of the top 5 greatest playoff performances of all-time back in the 05-06 Finals where he won us our first ever championship in franchise history and will go down as one of the greatest playoff performers of all-time. By the time Wade finishes his career he will go down as the third best SG of all time if he wins at least 1 more ring and can manage to at least average 22-23ppg in the next seasons with his usual blkpg, I just don't see how people can deny that when at that point when Jerry West was basically more of a pg, even tho he's the logo he still only won 1 ring (and i'm bringing up rings because that seems to be what the typical NBA fans like to rank certain greats off of). Being clutch is an overrated stat to me, if you look back at how many shots Jordan & Kobe missed than you would see why and both of those two guards are considered clutch too. West was a hell of defender but he was playing in a different era compared to Wade, the players now are much more athletic and faster then the ones Jerry West was guarding. Clyde only averaged more rebs than Wade that's it. Clyde only won 1 championship & made 1 All-NBA 1st Team. Wade is better than Clyde all around, defender, more asts, more ppg, and of course Wade's blkpg...

Dirk is and will finish as the 5th best PF of all-time after Tim Duncan, KG, Karl Malone & Charles Barkley imo...

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