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OT: The flu

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Re: OT: The flu 

Post#41 » by alphad0gz » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:29 am

...Not to mention that there is huge difference between a bad cold and the flu. If you don't get on top of the flu in the first day or two, you are in it for the haul. A bad cold? A week or so of discomfort. You can die from the flu.
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Re: OT: The flu 

Post#42 » by E86 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:42 am

Boyz of 4d wrote:Hello all;

Long time lurker as I usually don't have much to add to the conversation, however in this situation I may be able to shed some advice. My background is I am a cardiologist in the New England Area (NY born and raised, but trained in NE unfortunately...).

Even though I'm a cardiologist I see a fair amount of flu and these would be my recommendations (obviously you are free to do what you want, but this is the advice I give my family and friends).

1. Flu shot - Everyone should get it
- There are a few issues with the shot. It does not cover all strains of flu, but only the most common serotypes, so it is true that you may still get the flu, but the thought behind it is that you are protected and against the majority of serotypes (about 70% this year).
- It is true young people may not be affected or infected by the flu as much as the elderly, however bad cases of the flu can be extremely devestating. I have seen a fair number of flu pneumonias leading to respiratory distress, intubation, and even death (in people < 40, very bad outcomes in the pregnant especially).

2. What to do when you get the flu
- If you are within the first 48-72 hours of symptoms -- Go to a hospital and get a course of Tamiflu. This *may* help shorten the course of the flu (research is mixed about this), but what it has been shown to do is decrease the potential bad complicatoins from the flu. Normally symptoms will last anywhere between 7-14 days, but eveyrone varies
- If you are > 48-72 hours there is no proven benefit of taking Tamiflu. Some still recommend taking it, especially if you have a complication, however there is no research to back this recommendation. At this point it is all supportive care; ie fluids, anti-pyretics (tylenol), anti-inflammatories (high dose tylenol, ibuprofen, naproxen, etc), and symptomatic relief (pseudophedrine)

I know a lot of people are on board with vitamins and the like but there are a few things to be cautious about. There has been no large scale studies to show benefit of taking high dose vitamins in terms of preventing the flu or in terms of curtailing the symptoms especially after 48 hours. People will site small scale studies and the like, but I'd recommend taking a look at the actual study, not just the end point. Also, remember all vitamin recommendations/herbal things are not FDA approved, and as a result have not gone through the vigorous testing that medications have (the average medication goes thru 10 years of teating before hitting the market).

As I said eat the beginning of this post, I'm just giving my opinions, not trying to initiate a flame war. If anyone else has questions feel free to post them here or PM me. Thanks


I agree with you more than I do with Ibraheim, I imagine, but this line is perplexing. Just because the FDA doesn't "approve" vitamins doesn't negate their positive effects. Especially when it comes to preventing sickness, VitC studies have shown it's positive effects on phagocytes. Vitamins are not a cure all by any means, but you make it seem like they are completely irrelevant in that statement and that is dishonest.
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Re: OT: The flu 

Post#43 » by Boyz of 4d » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:02 am

As I said in my previous post, I'm not anti-vitamins or herbs (I prescribe certain ones to my patients for certain condition) nor am I trying to initiate a flame war.

However the literature on vitamins and the flu is shaky at best. The reason I mentioned the FDA is because they oversee what medical companies can say. For example if the research doesn't show that drug X doesn't cure disease Y they can't make that claim (although sometimes further research shows things may not be as effective as originally thought or effective at all...).

However since there is no group that governs on these vitamins, supplements, herbs these types of claims can be made (some may be true, but it's not a requirement for their advertisements)...My point is to blindly agree/disagree with what someone says without actually reading the literature is silly.

Also, if a medicine/vitamin/etc is shown to be beneficial on phagocytes there is no guarantee that carries over to overall benefit. There are many treatments/effects that are seen in individual cells or in animal models that don't translate out (for example the scare between PPI's and plavix a few years ago).
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Re: OT: The flu 

Post#44 » by shmeakone » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:11 am

Smoke a blunt.
My lifetime better have a Knicks championship.
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Re: OT: The flu 

Post#45 » by ibraheim718 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:12 am

Boyz of 4d wrote:And this is the reason I said to 'actually read the articles', not just blindly believe nonsense other people write. There are many false things in your above statement, but let me give you two quick examples.

1. The link you mention talks about the Concorde study showing that it shortened the lives of HIV patients. Completely incorrect, I suggest you take a look at the trial (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7908356)

Let me summarize it for you; It was a trial that used AZT in HIV patients at different stages of the disease: Either At the time of HIV diagnosis or at the time the patient converts to AIDS.

What was the outcome? It showed that EARLY implementation of AZT (prior to the diagnosis of AIDS) had no benefit in extending life. How did that change the use of AZT? It made the guidelines for it to be used only AFTER the diagnosis of AIDS. This actually would hurt pharmaceutical companies because it limits its use. Multiple papers have shown the benefit of AZT vs placebo in patient's with AIDS.

2. You mention coumadin preventing white blood clots but increasing the risk of red blood clots. This is completely true, however the risk of bleeding is much less than the odds of getting a stroke from white blood clots. If you want to see the exact numbers google CHADS2 or CHADS2vasc and it will compare the risks of dying from a stroke (white clot) vs those of dying from a bleed.

It's a shame you believe everything you read on websites. However, since you are so gullible; I recommend you check out http://www.doctoryourself.com. It explains how the cure to almost all medical issues is high dose vitamin C. I suggest you invest in it early...before everyone finds out...

:lol:

And BTW, I'm not against herbals/vitamins/supplements. Some have been shown to be beneficial, and some have been taken off the market for bad outcomes (ever hear of fenfen or ephedra?). I just wouldn't believe everything you read without actually looking at in depth. Is there a large pharmaceutical influence of medications? Most definitely. That's why you need to actually READ and UNDERSTAND the data, not just hang on to statements people say.

You don't think these herbalists make a killing on selling this stuff? Get real, 33.9 BILLION dollars were used last year in America on 'alternative' treatments.


Friend... and I assume you're an old poster because you just showed up out of nowhere started an account just to post in this thread.

I don't proclaim to be a doctor... I don't believe everything I read on the internet... I trust James Sloane the guy who authored the post you're questioning. I had 4 retinal detachments on my left eye and 5 surgeries to fix it... for the first time in my life I was pumped full of more drugs than I had ever experienced in my life. Coming out of it my nervous system was shot that I couldn't function in every day life... I saw every doctor money could buy... I had ever blood test they could think of and you know how I got better? Because of Mr. Sloane and his formulations and his advice. That's my reality.

you can go here to take a look if you want...

mountainmistbontanicals.com. There you can read about his formulations and the science behind it.

Now... Wingo asked for some advice because obviously the guy is suffering. I told him what worked for me... I haven't had the Flu in over 5 years... I haven't had a cold in over 5 years...and I've never got one Flu shot in my life.

And the 33.9 billion dollar industry you claim alternative medicines or treatments make in a year doesn't come no where close to what the pharmaceutical industry makes in America. That's a fact...

Now I'm going to keep doing what I do... and you should keep doing what you do.

And smart ass I told a poster that mega-dosing with vitC was a bad idea. :lol:
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Re: OT: The flu 

Post#46 » by ibraheim718 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:15 am

alphad0gz wrote:...Not to mention that there is huge difference between a bad cold and the flu. If you don't get on top of the flu in the first day or two, you are in it for the haul. A bad cold? A week or so of discomfort. You can die from the flu.


You're the same guy who was urging I'mcominghome to rush to the ER for some stomach pain... and when they checked him out they told him he had "impacted fecal matter"... :lol: Come on man if a fly took a crap on your shoulder you'd fear for your life.
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Re: OT: The flu 

Post#47 » by ibraheim718 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:22 am

Boyz of 4d wrote:As I said in my previous post, I'm not anti-vitamins or herbs (I prescribe certain ones to my patients for certain condition) nor am I trying to initiate a flame war.

However the literature on vitamins and the flu is shaky at best. The reason I mentioned the FDA is because they oversee what medical companies can say. For example if the research doesn't show that drug X doesn't cure disease Y they can't make that claim (although sometimes further research shows things may not be as effective as originally thought or effective at all...).

However since there is no group that governs on these vitamins, supplements, herbs these types of claims can be made (some may be true, but it's not a requirement for their advertisements)...My point is to blindly agree/disagree with what someone says without actually reading the literature is silly.

Also, if a medicine/vitamin/etc is shown to be beneficial on phagocytes there is no guarantee that carries over to overall benefit. There are many treatments/effects that are seen in individual cells or in animal models that don't translate out (for example the scare between PPI's and plavix a few years ago).


Since when did Andrographis become a Vitamin?

And since you're an MD explain this to me...

http://www.foundhealth.com/viral-upper- ... drographis

And this...

http://www.foundhealth.com/viral-upper- ... drographis

It seems to me that Andrographis according to the first link is exactly what Wingo needed... and at least is not harmful.
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Re: OT: The flu 

Post#48 » by duetta » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:29 am

Got a Flu shot in September, got the flu in October (came down with serious symptoms the day after the Hurricane)...but it mercifully wasn't a long one, and I was able to be back at work by Monday (when downtown Manhattan reopened).

My co-worker got his flu shot on Saturday - and by Monday he had symptoms, and he's been out ever since!

Boy, this flu shot stuff can be hit or miss!
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Re: OT: The flu 

Post#49 » by Boyz of 4d » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:38 am

As I said man, vitamins, herbs, etc may be beneficial in certain treatments. My comments towards vitamins was in relation to one of the above posters (it may not have been you) mentioning something about high dose vitamin C.

Looking at the information/link you provided, it seems that andrographis improves symptom duration but has no effect on mortality (not that quality of life isn't important). I'm not saying its not beneficial, but it's also doesn't prevent the bad outcomes of the flu (such as pneumonia). The only thing to my knowledge that has been shown to improve mortality/progression to worsening disease is tamiflu.

This thread has become become exactly what I did not want however and as a result I'm going to stop arguing. My intention of my original post was to provide medical information.

As I'm sure you've heard the NE area has been basically a huge area for the flu, and I've unfortunately seen many bad outcomes in young people which is why I recommended what I did in my original post (it really is a shame to see young people have a bad outcome from something that could be prevented).

Have a good night.
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Re: OT: The flu 

Post#50 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:43 am

duetta wrote:Got a Flu shot in September, got the flu in October (came down with serious symptoms the day after the Hurricane)...but it mercifully wasn't a long one, and I was able to be back at work by Monday (when downtown Manhattan reopened).

My co-worker got his flu shot on Saturday - and by Monday he had symptoms, and he's been out ever since!

Boy, this flu shot stuff can be hit or miss!


The only thing I can think of is that it takes a few days for the virus to incubate in your body before you start to feel the symptoms. So maybe you already were infected when you got the shot? I had to visit a client in one of the prisons here in Pa. That was on Wednesday. I was in the waiting area during shift change when all these correctional officers signed into work. I'm sure that's where I got it. Sunday is when I started feeling the symptoms.

Try getting the shot a little earlier next time. I think I'm going to get one next year.
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Re: OT: The flu 

Post#51 » by Boyz of 4d » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:46 am

Flu vaccine does not cover ALL strains of the flu, it covers the most common ones. Some possible explanaitons include; you got a strain of flu that you were not vaccinated against, you didn't develop antibodies quick enough, or you didn't actually get the flu, but possibly a different viral illness (did you actually have a positive rapid flu test or do you just think you had the flu...the only way to truly confirm the flu is a positive viral test)
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Re: OT: The flu 

Post#52 » by ibraheim718 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:51 am

HawthorneWingo wrote:
duetta wrote:Got a Flu shot in September, got the flu in October (came down with serious symptoms the day after the Hurricane)...but it mercifully wasn't a long one, and I was able to be back at work by Monday (when downtown Manhattan reopened).

My co-worker got his flu shot on Saturday - and by Monday he had symptoms, and he's been out ever since!

Boy, this flu shot stuff can be hit or miss!


The only thing I can think of is that it takes a few days for the virus to incubate in your body before you start to feel the symptoms. So maybe you already were infected when you got the shot? I had to visit a client in one of the prisons here in Pa. That was on Wednesday. I was in the waiting area during shift change when all these correctional officers signed into work. I'm sure that's where I got it. Sunday is when I started feeling the symptoms.

Try getting the shot a little earlier next time. I think I'm going to get one next year.


Check this link out..

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthings ... 11604a.htm

Yes and no... the flu vaccine will be more effective some years than others. The CDC predicted that the vaccine developed for the winter of 2003/2004 wasn't going to be effective against most cases of the flu because the strains covered by the vaccine weren't the same as the strains that were common. Highly targeted vaccines work, but only against their targets! There's no point in accepting the risks of a vaccine for a disease you can't get. When the flu vaccine is on-target, it's more effective. Even then, the vaccine isn't perfect because it uses inactivated virus. Is that bad? No. A live vaccine is more effective, but much more risky.

Bottom line: The flu vaccine varies in effectiveness from year-to-year. Even in a best-case scenario, it won't always protect against the flu. The CDC study didn't say that the vaccine didn't work; it says the vaccine didn't protect people from getting sick. Even with imperfect effectiveness, the vaccine is indicated for certain people. In my opinion, however, the vaccine isn't for everyone and certainly shouldn't be required for otherwise healthy people.


Disclaimer... the author is an MD. :lol:

In my 40 years I've never taken a Flu shot... I've had the flu *knocks on wood* luckily 2 or 3 times.

What I do is just make sure my immune system is strong and make sure my hygiene is impeccable.
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Re: OT: The flu 

Post#53 » by ibraheim718 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:55 am

Boyz of 4d wrote:Flu vaccine does not cover ALL strains of the flu, it covers the most common ones. Some possible explanaitons include; you got a strain of flu that you were not vaccinated against, you didn't develop antibodies quick enough, or you didn't actually get the flu, but possibly a different viral illness (did you actually have a positive rapid flu test or do you just think you had the flu...the only way to truly confirm the flu is a positive viral test)


I just posted an article that says just what you said but goes more in depth.

Further the majority of people don't ever have the luxury (more importantly the money) to go get checked out when they have the flu or are sick in general... much less get a viral test done. Doctors are all about 'in and out' they just assume based on symptoms that a person has the flu.. prescribe whatever they're going to prescribe and send you on your way. <except for my doc.
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Re: OT: The flu 

Post#54 » by Boyz of 4d » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:57 am

a PhD is a different type of doctor than an MD (not that being a PhD discredits what she says).
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Re: OT: The flu 

Post#55 » by ibraheim718 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:59 am

Boyz of 4d wrote:a PhD is a different type of doctor than an MD (not that being a PhD discredits what she says).


Do you disagree with her?
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Re: OT: The flu 

Post#56 » by Boyz of 4d » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:08 am

My view on the flu vaccine is kind of how I have alluded to in my prior posts.

It does not guarantee 100% that you will not obtain the flu, however it may decrease the chance (depending on the strain that is prevalent in your area/that year) that you get it. In my opinion, there is little downside in getting it, however the potential benefits may be huge.

A way to think about it (this is not a perfect example), is similar to wearing a seatbelt.:

Could you wear a seatbelt and never need it? Sure.
Could you be in an accident while wearing a seatbelt and still have a bad outcome/die? Yup.
Could you be in an accident and have your life saved because of it. Most definately.

I view the vaccine as Low risk, high reward (and is commonly given away for free or very cheap). That's why I advise it to my family and friends. BTW I have no other accounts, and you probably wont see me post much anymore unless it relates to medicine or a school I went to in the past. Have a good night :D
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Re: OT: The flu 

Post#57 » by ibraheim718 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:10 am

Boyz of 4d wrote:My view on the flu vaccine is kind of how I have alluded to in my prior posts.

It does not guarantee 100% that you will not obtain the flu, however it may decrease the chance (depending on the strain that is prevalent in your area/that year) that you get it. In my opinion, there is little downside in getting it, however the potential benefits may be huge.

A way to think about it (this is not a perfect example), is similar to wearing a seatbelt.:

Could you wear a seatbelt and never need it? Sure.
Could you be in an accident while wearing a seatbelt and still have a bad outcome/die? Yup.
Could you be in an accident and have your life saved because of it. Most definately.

I view the vaccine as Low risk, high reward. That's why I advise it to my family and friends. BTW I have no other accounts, and you probably wont see me post much anymore unless it relates to medicine or a school I went to in the past. Have a good night :D


No worries.. you seem like a nice guy. Not a big deal... to each their own.
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Re: OT: The flu 

Post#58 » by Jordan Diddy » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:40 am

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Re: OT: The flu 

Post#59 » by HixNixKnicksTix » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:23 pm

21shumpshumpst wrote:Earn enough to get some decent insurance then I'll tell you.


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Re: OT: The flu 

Post#60 » by MaseInYourFace » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:32 pm

duetta wrote:Got a Flu shot in September, got the flu in October (came down with serious symptoms the day after the Hurricane)...but it mercifully wasn't a long one, and I was able to be back at work by Monday (when downtown Manhattan reopened).

My co-worker got his flu shot on Saturday - and by Monday he had symptoms, and he's been out ever since!

Boy, this flu shot stuff can be hit or miss!


Seems like your co-worker had the virus already when he got the shot. Too late. They tell you when you get the shot, it's well publicized, the flu shot is just a well educated guess. It protects you against about 70% of the flu currently out there but it's not 100% effective.
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