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Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V

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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#861 » by Nivek » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:35 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:Politician's job is to advocate for their constituents, full stop.


Is it? I think you could get extensive debate on this issue. Constituents are not a monolithic group. Politicians are always in the position of picking and choosing which group they want to advocate for. And, what about a politician following his conscience and doing what he thinks is right, what he thinks is best -- even if his constituents don't agree?
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#862 » by popper » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:36 pm

Good article on CO2 emission reduction policies in CA. Our recent discussion on global warming could have included these types of policy complexities to illuminate the grey areas that exist between good intentions and desired results.

http://www.newgeography.com/content/003 ... connection
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#863 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:02 pm

Nivek wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Politician's job is to advocate for their constituents, full stop.


Is it? I think you could get extensive debate on this issue. Constituents are not a monolithic group. Politicians are always in the position of picking and choosing which group they want to advocate for. And, what about a politician following his conscience and doing what he thinks is right, what he thinks is best -- even if his constituents don't agree?


Politicians have to do things their constituents don't like all the time, it's called compromise and why people think politicians are all liars. I don't think advocating for your constituents and doing things they don't agree with are at all exclusive -- just a fact of political life.

You gain a certain amount of trust -- "political capital" -- from your constituents by getting things done for them. You have to spend that capital sometimes to get an agreement. Use up all your capital and you're out.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#864 » by hands11 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:17 am

popper wrote:Thanks for the kind words Doc. These threads are a healthy outlet for me to try and stay engaged in both political discourse and in the Wizards (how pathetic is that .... though we have been looking good lately). I have learned a ton from all who post on this site and enjoy the dialectic that is essential in understanding and appreciating the views and positions of others. My greatest frustration with our politics and our media today is the absence of thoughtful discourse between political opponents. When done in good faith, it should lead to better and more effective solutions to our myriad problems. Our leaders could set a better example for the country if they would first seek to understand before they push to be understood.


Sadly for way to many in the House and Senate, that is not their job anymore. They are not there to understand. They are there to promote. They are lobbyist. Hired guns of their corporate donors. They are there to make money, not to serve the public good. So to do that, all they need to do is understand what their big donors want them to say (lie) to convince the public that something that makes no sense...makes sense. You know.. think like...deficits don't matter or tax cut pay for themselves.

Its public pressure that ultimately forces policy to change. That is the real challenge. How does the public get their information and how do you get them pissed off enough to act. What information they get it key. Because you can give the public bad information and get them pissed off to vote and they will vote for bad things. Things like voting for people that want to go to war and cut taxes without paying for them.

But things seem to be changing. People are waking up again.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#865 » by Zonkerbl » Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:45 pm

I think it's really misguided and unhelpful to view a politician's job as anything but advocating for his/her constituents, hands. Lobbyists are not evil. They are the core of the democratic process. Politicians are not the problem. Lobbyists are not the problem. The refusal of constituents representing different points of view to listen to each other, the steadfast vilification of members of the other "tribe," is the problem.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#866 » by Induveca » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:29 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:I think it's really misguided and unhelpful to view a politician's job as anything but advocating for his/her constituents, hands. Lobbyists are not evil. They are the core of the democratic process. Politicians are not the problem. Lobbyists are not the problem. The refusal of constituents representing different points of view to listen to each other, the steadfast vilification of members of the other "tribe," is the problem.


You don't know many lobbyists I do....they are the furthest thing from harmless.

I was sued via a major lobby about 10 years ago, purely to protect the profit of a much larger company in California from whom I had been taking a ton of business. They refused to take their business online and at the time and stuck with printed delivery via physical store.

I actually ended up having to sue a lobby in DC, and spent about 60k in attorneys fees and lost a few hundred thousand in sales. They took down web presences online via fraudulent DMCA notices....right after I refused to sell to a company they represented in California.

Long story short my firm in DC found some folks who worked there, and confirmed they were illegally pushing out DMCA notices and using this tactic to put potential competitors out of business. All in all, smart strategy....bravo to them.

Companies completely isolate themselves, and use associations to act on their behalf. Takes a long time, and a lot of money to prove the intent....and meanwhile your site is taken down by law from an accusation. The definition of "guilty until you prove yourself innocent". At the end though, I won and now that division of the company is dead....and I sold to another company in 2007.

Since that time, I use a few lobbyists for my own purposes. It's very standard practice, and crucial at top levels of government. Preferential treatment at government agencies, applications "moved". Most top lobbyists are pretty much the equivalent of union thugs. Don't let the nice environment/buildings and old lady secretaries fool you. Top associations are ruthless, and actively grease politicians in a variety of ways to ensure they are a dominant force in their respective sector.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#867 » by closg00 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:35 pm

I hope NBA union rep Billy Hunter gets tossed, this latest scandal plays into stereotypes about union corruption. 3-year 15 million dollar self-extension. Disgusting!!!
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#868 » by Induveca » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:41 pm

closg00 wrote:I hope NBA union rep Billy Hunter gets tossed, this latest scandal plays into stereotypes about union corruption. 3-year 15 million dollar self-extension. Disgusting!!!


Hunter has done a solid job for them, not easy to make the likes of Stern bend. Personally he annoys me however.

Unions are by their very definition corrupt. They exist to further a single cause, and make others pay more at any cost to fund that cause's well-being via persistent negotiation (blackmail). Hard to coin that as anything but corrupt. :)
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#869 » by Zonkerbl » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:56 pm

Induveca wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:I think it's really misguided and unhelpful to view a politician's job as anything but advocating for his/her constituents, hands. Lobbyists are not evil. They are the core of the democratic process. Politicians are not the problem. Lobbyists are not the problem. The refusal of constituents representing different points of view to listen to each other, the steadfast vilification of members of the other "tribe," is the problem.


You don't know many lobbyists I do....they are the furthest thing from harmless.

I was sued via a major lobby about 10 years ago, purely to protect the profit of a much larger company in California from whom I had been taking a ton of business. They refused to take their business online and at the time and stuck with printed delivery via physical store.

I actually ended up having to sue a lobby in DC, and spent about 60k in attorneys fees and lost a few hundred thousand in sales. They took down web presences online via fraudulent DMCA notices....right after I refused to sell to a company they represented in California.

Long story short my firm in DC found some folks who worked there, and confirmed they were illegally pushing out DMCA notices and using this tactic to put potential competitors out of business. All in all, smart strategy....bravo to them.

Companies completely isolate themselves, and use associations to act on their behalf. Takes a long time, and a lot of money to prove the intent....and meanwhile your site is taken down by law from an accusation. The definition of "guilty until you prove yourself innocent". At the end though, I won and now that division of the company is dead....and I sold to another company in 2007.

Since that time, I use a few lobbyists for my own purposes. It's very standard practice, and crucial at top levels of government. Preferential treatment at government agencies, applications "moved". Most top lobbyists are pretty much the equivalent of union thugs. Don't let the nice environment/buildings and old lady secretaries fool you. Top associations are ruthless, and actively grease politicians in a variety of ways to ensure they are a dominant force in their respective sector.


Is that a lobbyist or a lawyer? To me a lobbyist is someone who talks to political representatives and other political actors to try to advocate for a certain point of view. A lawyer is a tool used to bend the application/interpretation of laws to serve your interest. Lobbyists are a kind of lawyer, but not all lawyers are lobbyists, and not all lawyers who call themselves lobbyists are "lobbying" all the time.

Ruthlessness is not evil. It's being good at your job within the rules that are permitted/enforced. Using a lobbyist to take advantage of market failures introduced by government intervention is smart business. Allowing the government intervention to produce the market failure in the first place is the root of the problem. Is it fair that big businesses have economies of scale in hiring lawyers/lobbyists to peddle their influence? No. Does that make lobbying evil? No. What's evil is that small businesses can't afford lobbyists -- they cannot buy as much democratic representation per dollar that a large business can. Rather than labeling democratic representation as evil and trying to suppress it, we would all be much better off figuring out ways to lower the cost of democratic representation for smaller entities. That's what consumer advocacy groups are for. That's what online political campaigns are for.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#870 » by Induveca » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:08 pm

Nice spin Zonk. :)

Problem is, it's an extremely corrupt system. Multiple layers of bribes to shelter the politicians and those greasing the wheels.

You have to pay off lobbyists to hold these "political discussions" you reference. They in turn, pay off the politicians via various means.....lobbyist consulting fees vary depending on connections and size of your business.

And no it has absolutely nothing to do with attorneys. Sure the lobbyist firms employ them, as many of the resulting favors from bribes end up as favorable laws for their "clients".....and to wage war on the PR corruption front. Of course many lobbies are purely fronts for a major business.

Can't get more corrupt than that, just the common Joe doesn't get it.....it's organized crime at the highest/most intelligent level....

What's the difference between NY Mobs (formerly) controlling trucking in NYC via well placed local and state government payoffs, and corporations being awarded exclusive rights to operate on federal owned and/or controlled land via not so discreet lobbyist bribery?

Not much....
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#871 » by DCZards » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:55 pm

Induveca wrote:
Unions are by their very definition corrupt. They exist to further a single cause, and make others pay more at any cost to fund that cause's well-being via persistent negotiation (blackmail). Hard to coin that as anything but corrupt. :)


Indu, your views on unions (thugs???) are straight outta the 1930s and 1940s. You need to come into the 21st century. I know how unions operate (just like you seem to know how businesses operate) and I can assure you that your opinion that unions "exist to further a single cause" is very uninformed...unless that "cause" is fighting for the rights of workers, families, children, minorities, senior citizens, etc. :)
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#872 » by DCZards » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:59 pm

Lobbyists get a bad rap. A lot of what I’ve been reading here about evil or corrupt lobbyists are gross overgeneralizations. I work with men and women who “lobby” for a living. They happen to advocate for educators and schoolchildren. And I know first-hand that not only are these men and women righteous individuals but so are the issues they lobby/advocate on behalf of.

Sure there are lobbyists/lawyers (as well as politicians, business owners, police officers and priests) who are corrupt and evil. What’s new?
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#873 » by dobrojim » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:09 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
Is that a lobbyist or a lawyer? To me a lobbyist is someone who talks to political representatives and other political actors to try to advocate for a certain point of view. A lawyer is a tool used to bend the application/interpretation of laws to serve your interest. Lobbyists are a kind of lawyer, but not all lawyers are lobbyists, and not all lawyers who call themselves lobbyists are "lobbying" all the time.

Ruthlessness is not evil. It's being good at your job within the rules that are permitted/enforced. Using a lobbyist to take advantage of market failures introduced by government intervention is smart business. Allowing the government intervention to produce the market failure in the first place is the root of the problem. Is it fair that big businesses have economies of scale in hiring lawyers/lobbyists to peddle their influence? No. Does that make lobbying evil? No. What's evil is that small businesses can't afford lobbyists -- they cannot buy as much democratic representation per dollar that a large business can. Rather than labeling democratic representation as evil and trying to suppress it, we would all be much better off figuring out ways to lower the cost of democratic representation for smaller entities. That's what consumer advocacy groups are for. That's what online political campaigns are for.


Bravo.

Lobbying ~/= right of redress of grievences

I agree with what I take as your basic premise, that big money has an unfair advantage
in lobbying. That has resulted in our current society of a tiny number of haves, and a
large number of have-nots.

I stumbled across an interesting panel discussion last night on C-span (from GWU)
on ending poverty. That's a lobby that could well use the kind of resources that
plutocrats and corps currently have. One of the speakers repeated a quote
(not sure who first said it) but the gist of it was that we have a highway to
poverty and a sidewalk out to the middle class. This affects people of all
political persuasions, ethnicities etc.

fact - we have the greatest disparity in wealth and income of any advanced country.
Some of the cause of that is due to the influence of big money on political decisions
and priorities (by BOTH parties).

link to video of panel discussion http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/TavisSm
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#874 » by dobrojim » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:49 pm

Induveca wrote:Nice spin Zonk. :)

Problem is, it's an extremely corrupt system. Multiple layers of bribes to shelter the politicians and those greasing the wheels.

You have to pay off lobbyists to hold these "political discussions" you reference. They in turn, pay off the politicians via various means.....lobbyist consulting fees vary depending on connections and size of your business.

And no it has absolutely nothing to do with attorneys. Sure the lobbyist firms employ them, as many of the resulting favors from bribes end up as favorable laws for their "clients".....and to wage war on the PR corruption front. Of course many lobbies are purely fronts for a major business.

Can't get more corrupt than that, just the common Joe doesn't get it.....it's organized crime at the highest/most intelligent level....

What's the difference between NY Mobs (formerly) controlling trucking in NYC via well placed local and state government payoffs, and corporations being awarded exclusive rights to operate on federal owned and/or controlled land via not so discreet lobbyist bribery?

Not much....


I think a lot of people get it to a much greater extent than my interpretation
of your post would indicate. These people are just confused/scared/cynical/apathetic
about how best they might act to change it.

Social media has some potential to change this.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#875 » by Zonkerbl » Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:08 pm

Induveca, what's the difference between organized crime and government?

Competition vs. monopoly. When one warring tribe defeats the other, it goes from being a "roving band of militants" to being the "government in power."

Having lived in Siberia for a year, Indu, I can very strongly assert that if you think the U.S. system is corrupt, YOU AIN'T SEEN NUTHIN.

The U.S. is one of THE LEAST CORRUPT countries out there. This will be about the tenth time I've repeated this quote in this thread: Democracy is the worst possible form of government, except for all the others we've tried.

Corruption is a symptom of institutional dysfunction. No institution is perfect -- what we can do is try to identify the root causes of dysfunction and fix it.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#876 » by popper » Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:23 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:Induveca, what's the difference between organized crime and government?

Competition vs. monopoly. When one warring tribe defeats the other, it goes from being a "roving band of militants" to being the "government in power."

Having lived in Siberia for a year, Indu, I can very strongly assert that if you think the U.S. system is corrupt, YOU AIN'T SEEN NUTHIN.

The U.S. is one of THE LEAST CORRUPT countries out there. This will be about the tenth time I've repeated this quote in this thread: Democracy is the worst possible form of government, except for all the others we've tried.

Corruption is a symptom of institutional dysfunction. No institution is perfect -- what we can do is try to identify the root causes of dysfunction and fix it.


Good points. I think term limits could help if properly designed and implemented (a giant and difficult task to be sure but worth it IMO). Won't go into the details of my preferred design as it is complicated and I don't want to bore anyone.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#877 » by dobrojim » Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:50 pm

I don't think term limits is the answer. On its face it's anti-democratic.
It could well lead to GREATER influence by lobbyists/special interests.
Having institutional memory has definite advantages.

But other things ought to be looked at in order to diminish the tremendous
advantages of incumbency.

now term limits for Supreme Court judges...I think there is some merit in that.
Maybe 18 year terms...
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#878 » by popper » Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:53 pm

Finally some good news - hopefully this tactic would force the Senate to develop and submit a budget. Perhaps the President might even consider submitting his own legally mandated budget.


............ A member of the House Republican leadership said consensus is growing among party members to craft “a very short-term” U.S. debt-limit increase to force the Senate to adopt a budget plan. A debt-limit increase probably would last “until the time” Congress is supposed to adopt a budget on April 15, Representative Kevin McCarthy said in an interview with Bloomberg Television’s “Capitol Gains” program airing Jan. 20.

The challenge for the GOP is that the upcoming debate over the budget is framed around three separate events. First, the nation will hit the debt ceiling sometime in mid to late February. On March 2nd, the automatic spending cuts of the "sequester" take effect. Then, at the end of March, the government's spending authority expires, forcing a possible shutdown.

It is politically difficult to take on each of these events separately. There is also growing frustration among Republicans that the Senate has failed to produce a budget for the past four years, requiring a series of continuing resolutions. These are difficult vehicles to secure the spending cuts the nation needs to bring down the deficit.
The statements by Ryan and McCarthy are the first signs of the GOP's strategy on the debate. A short-term extension of the debt ceiling, through April or May, would enable all three events to be wrapped into a single negotiation. It would also put pressure on Senate Democrats to put forward a budget.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government ... rce-budget
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#879 » by montestewart » Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:01 pm

popper wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Induveca, what's the difference between organized crime and government?

Competition vs. monopoly. When one warring tribe defeats the other, it goes from being a "roving band of militants" to being the "government in power."

Having lived in Siberia for a year, Indu, I can very strongly assert that if you think the U.S. system is corrupt, YOU AIN'T SEEN NUTHIN.

The U.S. is one of THE LEAST CORRUPT countries out there. This will be about the tenth time I've repeated this quote in this thread: Democracy is the worst possible form of government, except for all the others we've tried.

Corruption is a symptom of institutional dysfunction. No institution is perfect -- what we can do is try to identify the root causes of dysfunction and fix it.


Good points. I think term limits could help if properly designed and implemented (a giant and difficult task to be sure but worth it IMO). Won't go into the details of my preferred design as it is complicated and I don't want to bore anyone.

I recall a conversation I had with lab partners in college, one each from Turkey, India, and Ethiopia. I made some comments about US corruption, and all three pretty much uniformly asserted that I didn't understand corruption as practiced outside the US if I thought it was bad here. Comments like "everyone expects it" and "no one even tries to hide it" characterize the general tenor of their comments.

I also recall my father commenting on going to conferences around the world, staying in standard hotels, and observing that governmental counterparts from other countries stayed in much more luxurious accommodations and ran up extensive expenses. When confronting some of them with questions about why representatives to development/anti-poverty conferences stayed in swank hotels, the responses generally bypassed the issue by focusing on his naivete.

I'm not saying any of that justifies any level of corruption here, but it does give some perspective.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#880 » by dobrojim » Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:04 pm

my understanding of the Constitution is that the House (of Reps)
is where the budget is supposed to originate. I fail to understand
why one house (or the other) should be held solely responsible
for the failure to come up with a budget. At the end of the day
(conf committee), both houses have to pass the same bill.
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