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Big Balls traded to Boston for (almost) NOTHING

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Re: Big Balls traded to Boston for (almost) NOTHING 

Post#361 » by GhostsOfGil » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:52 am

dandridge 10 wrote:It's also kind of funny that the Wizards are saying that Crawford did not fit in their plans because of his shot jacking and lack of defense. Well, he has played that way for 2 years now and until just this month, the Wizards let it happen. There were never any repercussions before when Crawford jacked up shots or played no defense. Yet, with a few weeks before the trade deadline, the Wizards chose that particular time to discipline him. What perfect timing!

Listen, I don't think that Crawford is that special of a player and I don't mind that he is gone. However, a young cheap player that has shown flashes being at least an above average player and that is improving should fetch more than 2 expiring vets that won't ever play here.


+1 Very well put.
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Re: Big Balls traded to Boston for (almost) NOTHING 

Post#362 » by Zonkerbl » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:45 am

dandridge 10 wrote:
nate33 wrote:Wow. Lots of Crawford apologists.

Crawford was permitted to be a no-D chucker for the first year-and-a-half because we had no other options. Crawford earned heavy minutes in only two instances: last year when Young was hurt, and this year when Beal and Wall were hurt. It's hard to be a disciplinarian and bench players for playing the wrong way when there is literally nobody else to put on the floor. Wittman had to choose between permitting Crawford's no-D chucking, or going with Jannero freaking Pargo.

If you want to blame EG for not acquiring the proper amount of depth, fine. Whatever. But don't blame Wittman. He probably never wanted to permit Crawford's chucking but was forced to because of circumstances. Once we finally had the depth to discipline Crawford, he made an attempt to reel him in. Crawford reacted like a brat.

I can't believe people are defending Crawford for his shenanigans while on the bench. He's a professional athlete getting paid millions of dollars. If the coach tells you not to play, you don't play. You sit, pay attention, cheer your teammates, and stay ready for when you are called. Period.


I don't see any Crawford apologists on this board. I certainly am not defending Crawford for what he did the last game. I simply said that I understood why he was mad. He went from getting minutes every game to getting none despite really no change in the quality of his play.

And I disagree that the Wizards had no other options. The Wizards certainly had other options if they didn't want to play a "no D, chucker". They had Martin they could have played over Crawford. They could have played Webster at the 2 like they are now on occasion. Heck, if Crawford was as bad as some people are now claiming he was, then they certainly could have called up a D-leaguer for him. I mean, its not like that the Wizards should have been worried that they would be worse without Crawford. After all, as Nivek points out, the Wizards were epically bad with Crawford.

In any event, this isn't about Crawford at all. This is about the Wizards management and how they just find ways to unnecessarily devalue players they have on their roster when they don't have too. They did it with regard to Gilbert and how they handled the gun gate situation. They also did it when they listed Blatche out as "poor conditioning." I don't have a problem with the Wizards wanting to move Crawford, or any of these other players. I have a problem with the Wizards handling situations in a way that causes players to be further devalued at the same time they are trying to move them. It is just poor management.

Again, there was no reason to bench Crawford just before the trade deadline. If they wanted to move him, they should have kept playing him minutes to further bolster his value or at least show to the rest of the league that they valued him, even if they didnt. Indeed, just on January 5, you wrote the following:

"I wonder if his value is reaching the point where he might be a key component of an upcoming Cousins trade?...Crawford has definitely improved to the point where he can be a useful addition to many rosters."

Yet, instead of trying to build on that success to further bolster his value, they basically turned around and said to the rest of the NBA, "this guy is not even good enough to play on one of the worst basketball teams in the NBA." No wonder why no one was willing to give anything up for him than an injured/old expiring vets.

With that said, its not even worth my time arguing this point. I think there is already enough evidence on the table to support that the Wizards management sucks. I don't need this issue for more evidence.


Dude. You are apologizing for him.

Read what you just said. "they basically turned around and said to the rest of the NBA, "this guy is not even good enough to play on one of the worst basketball teams in the NBA." Really? So you think Randy said, well, we are finally playing the way I want the team to play and I can finally use minutes as a discipline tool to get Crawford to play defense. But you know what? We suck -- I'll just ignore our record over the last two months and give Crawford minutes he doesn't deserve.

They tried going public with their "hustle stats" showing Crawford was one of the two worst defenders on the team. Crawford ignored them. So Wittman benched him. Instead of taking it like a man, like, say, Singleton did, he has a public sulking tantrum.

I don't see Jan sulking. I don't see Singleton sulking. Singleton, Jan, Booker, and Seraphin all seem to appreciate that minutes are a privilege that have to be earned. JC doesn't. It's not like Wittman all of a sudden benched JC, without ever doing anything like that before. He benched Singleton, who took it like a man, took the message to heart and worked in practice until he earned minutes again. Next it's JC's turn to get benched.

Now at this point JC could have quietly gone to EG and asked for a trade. "I see I'm not a part of the equation here, could you try and find a place for me where I might have a chance to earn more minutes?" He could have not telegraphed his desire to be traded to all the other GMs in the league by keeping his damn jersey on. He could have behaved like a goddamn professional on the sidelines. Yes, he was benched, but before his public insubordinate behavior there was still a chance EG could have gotten something for him. Maybe only a second round pick, but damn it, SOMETHING. JC is DIRECTLY responsible for the lousy trade return EG got for him.

And this is true regardless of what else was going on behind the scenes. It doesn't really matter if he was undermining Beal or pooping in Wall's shoes or whatever. Jesus "Christ!" Crawford screwed EG and the Wizards with his idiotic public behavior, and that is 100% HIS FAULT.

Kudos to EG for not coming out publicly and saying "JC approached me and asked for a trade. While I was shopping him around, his public behavior undermined his trade value. I was only offered expiring contracts or low-value players like Fab Melo for JC because all the other GMs in the league knew I had no choice but to get rid of him. I knew I would be criticized for receiving essentially nothing in return for a player who averaged almost 20 points a game in December, but I decided it would be better for our team to resolve the situation sooner rather than later." I would guess that he at least said something like this to Ted and that making the trade was a decision they made together.
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Re: Big Balls traded to Boston for (almost) NOTHING 

Post#363 » by dandridge 10 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:34 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
dandridge 10 wrote:
nate33 wrote:Wow. Lots of Crawford apologists.

Crawford was permitted to be a no-D chucker for the first year-and-a-half because we had no other options. Crawford earned heavy minutes in only two instances: last year when Young was hurt, and this year when Beal and Wall were hurt. It's hard to be a disciplinarian and bench players for playing the wrong way when there is literally nobody else to put on the floor. Wittman had to choose between permitting Crawford's no-D chucking, or going with Jannero freaking Pargo.

If you want to blame EG for not acquiring the proper amount of depth, fine. Whatever. But don't blame Wittman. He probably never wanted to permit Crawford's chucking but was forced to because of circumstances. Once we finally had the depth to discipline Crawford, he made an attempt to reel him in. Crawford reacted like a brat.

I can't believe people are defending Crawford for his shenanigans while on the bench. He's a professional athlete getting paid millions of dollars. If the coach tells you not to play, you don't play. You sit, pay attention, cheer your teammates, and stay ready for when you are called. Period.


I don't see any Crawford apologists on this board. I certainly am not defending Crawford for what he did the last game. I simply said that I understood why he was mad. He went from getting minutes every game to getting none despite really no change in the quality of his play.

And I disagree that the Wizards had no other options. The Wizards certainly had other options if they didn't want to play a "no D, chucker". They had Martin they could have played over Crawford. They could have played Webster at the 2 like they are now on occasion. Heck, if Crawford was as bad as some people are now claiming he was, then they certainly could have called up a D-leaguer for him. I mean, its not like that the Wizards should have been worried that they would be worse without Crawford. After all, as Nivek points out, the Wizards were epically bad with Crawford.

In any event, this isn't about Crawford at all. This is about the Wizards management and how they just find ways to unnecessarily devalue players they have on their roster when they don't have too. They did it with regard to Gilbert and how they handled the gun gate situation. They also did it when they listed Blatche out as "poor conditioning." I don't have a problem with the Wizards wanting to move Crawford, or any of these other players. I have a problem with the Wizards handling situations in a way that causes players to be further devalued at the same time they are trying to move them. It is just poor management.

Again, there was no reason to bench Crawford just before the trade deadline. If they wanted to move him, they should have kept playing him minutes to further bolster his value or at least show to the rest of the league that they valued him, even if they didnt. Indeed, just on January 5, you wrote the following:

"I wonder if his value is reaching the point where he might be a key component of an upcoming Cousins trade?...Crawford has definitely improved to the point where he can be a useful addition to many rosters."

Yet, instead of trying to build on that success to further bolster his value, they basically turned around and said to the rest of the NBA, "this guy is not even good enough to play on one of the worst basketball teams in the NBA." No wonder why no one was willing to give anything up for him than an injured/old expiring vets.

With that said, its not even worth my time arguing this point. I think there is already enough evidence on the table to support that the Wizards management sucks. I don't need this issue for more evidence.


Dude. You are apologizing for him.

Read what you just said. "they basically turned around and said to the rest of the NBA, "this guy is not even good enough to play on one of the worst basketball teams in the NBA." Really? So you think Randy said, well, we are finally playing the way I want the team to play and I can finally use minutes as a discipline tool to get Crawford to play defense. But you know what? We suck -- I'll just ignore our record over the last two months and give Crawford minutes he doesn't deserve.

They tried going public with their "hustle stats" showing Crawford was one of the two worst defenders on the team. Crawford ignored them. So Wittman benched him. Instead of taking it like a man, like, say, Singleton did, he has a public sulking tantrum.

I don't see Jan sulking. I don't see Singleton sulking. Singleton, Jan, Booker, and Seraphin all seem to appreciate that minutes are a privilege that have to be earned. JC doesn't. It's not like Wittman all of a sudden benched JC, without ever doing anything like that before. He benched Singleton, who took it like a man, took the message to heart and worked in practice until he earned minutes again. Next it's JC's turn to get benched.

Now at this point JC could have quietly gone to EG and asked for a trade. "I see I'm not a part of the equation here, could you try and find a place for me where I might have a chance to earn more minutes?" He could have not telegraphed his desire to be traded to all the other GMs in the league by keeping his damn jersey on. He could have behaved like a goddamn professional on the sidelines. Yes, he was benched, but before his public insubordinate behavior there was still a chance EG could have gotten something for him. Maybe only a second round pick, but damn it, SOMETHING. JC is DIRECTLY responsible for the lousy trade return EG got for him.

And this is true regardless of what else was going on behind the scenes. It doesn't really matter if he was undermining Beal or pooping in Wall's shoes or whatever. Jesus "Christ!" Crawford screwed EG and the Wizards with his idiotic public behavior, and that is 100% HIS FAULT.

Kudos to EG for not coming out publicly and saying "JC approached me and asked for a trade. While I was shopping him around, his public behavior undermined his trade value. I was only offered expiring contracts or low-value players like Fab Melo for JC because all the other GMs in the league knew I had no choice but to get rid of him. I knew I would be criticized for receiving essentially nothing in return for a player who averaged almost 20 points a game in December, but I decided it would be better for our team to resolve the situation sooner rather than later." I would guess that he at least said something like this to Ted and that making the trade was a decision they made together.


Zonker,

Wittman did bench Crawford without ever doing it before. You are mentioning Wittman's treatment of other players. In the 2 years Crawford played here, I don't recall Wittman ever benching Crawford for his no D and shot jacking. It was perfectly acceptable for 2 years and then all of a sudden right before the tradeline they decide, you know what, its not acceptable anymore. Its not like Crawford was all of a sudden playing bad or doing something differently than he had before. That was my problem with the benching. It went from getting to consistent minutes every game to zero minutes overnight, without any significant change in Crawford's play. Its not the same as with Singleton and Ves because they went from playing reasonably well last year, to stinkin' up the joint this year. Their play did change singificantly.

And regarding Crawford sulking, I don't condone that at all. However, I also know that it was not as though it was happening all season long and there has been no evidence whatsoever that he had become a cancer to the team or that he was a distraction in the lockerroom. It happened one game. I find it hard to believe that GM's accross the country would not agree to give up a late first round pick or a 2nd round pick because Crawford sulked one game. Players sulk in the NBA all the time. Heck, Dwight Howard sulked for 2 years.

You are 100% right that Crawford should not have sulked and just should have put on a happy face. However, I personally think that benching Crawford for 2 weeks, AFTER his best month of his career, had more to do with devaluing him than one game in which he sulked because he did not get any playing time. You think that is apologizing for Crawford. I think that is criticizing Wizards management. We will agree to disagree.
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Re: Big Balls traded to Boston for (almost) NOTHING 

Post#364 » by nate33 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:47 pm

Dandridge, I agree completely with your criticism of management in the way the devalued Crawford's trade value just weeks before the Trade Deadline. Management should either have traded him in January, or sucked it up and played him in February until a Trade Deadline deal could be arranged.

I took issue with this portion of your critique:

I also think it is bull crap to claim that Crawford was sulking because he was put in his proper role as a reserve. Crawford wasn't sulking because he was put in a reserve role, he was sulking because he went from being a piece to the puzzle to being no piece whatsoever. I did not hear anybody claim he was a discontent or cancer when he was coming off the bench at the beginning of the season. I think Crawford was fine in a reserve role. He just didn't appreciate being benched completely after having one of his best month of his career. I can't say that I blame him. I would not be happy either.


From reading this, it appeared as though you were blaming management (Wittman) for abruptly benching Crawford for being a no-D chucker after two full seasons of tolerance. I just don't think it went down this way. I think it's unlikely that Wittman woke up one morning and decided to bench Crawford after his best month. I'm sure Wittman communicated with Crawford and explained what he expected from him. It's not like Crawford went from playing 30 minutes to 0 minutes. Crawford's minutes slowly dwindled and yet he didn't seem to respond to Wittman's expectations. His minutes continued to decline until he started betting DNP-CD's.
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Re: Big Balls traded to Boston for (almost) NOTHING 

Post#365 » by Zonkerbl » Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:09 pm

I would add that the team played good perimeter defense all year long. It has been clear all year long that playing good defense is a priority. As various players got healthy, the ones that played defense better than JC got his minutes. Not a surprise.
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Re: Big Balls traded to Boston for (almost) NOTHING 

Post#366 » by hands11 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:32 am

So we got nothing for Dray, but we swallowed that pill because it happened in the offseason and we were just glad to have that drama over with.

Now they shipped off Crawford for nothing. That sucked. But the win over Houston helped wash that down.

I like the way the team is playing with their mostly 7 man rotation of professionals.

The draft should hopefully add another quality piece or two so we have that to look forward to.

Here is what is bothering me.

What is the plan or path for Kevin S, Ves, Booker and Singleton ? They aren't all sticking around. None of them are starter quality to replace Nene. All would have to develop at ton to reach that level.

Kevin S was getting PT, but now he is getting the bench. In two year, mayyyybe he could be that.
Ves looks the part. He has the raw talent to do it but again, at least 2-3 year away from it.
So now we have Booker or Singleton getting minutes but both of them top off as nice back ups.

So what ever happens with Ves ? He isn't even seeing the floor. Never going to get them sitting on the bench.

Just like they got nothing for Crawford, it would suck to get nothing out for or out of Ves either. I just don't understand the plan. Does he even want to stay playing in the US.

I think with the draft, there is a path to keep growing this with at least one first and two seconds. But its going to be a bitter pill watching them trim this tree even more as they add new unsoiled free talent.

Good news one day, bad news. Good news. Bad news. I guess as long as they keep getting better, that all that matters but it will suck to see talent and picks go wasted.

One of Booker and Singleton have to go. Booker has to stay healthy the rest the year to stand any chance.
One of Kevin S and Ves have to go. Kevin had his chance. Time to give Ves a legit shot again.

I just hope we get something for them. Something close to value. Its just hard for me to see that happening.

Before things get even better, I think we might have a few more Crawford type pills to swallow. But sometimes you just have to cut your loses and more forward. Learn from your mistakes. Hopefully Beal types are their new mold regarding character and smarts.
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Re: Big Balls traded to Boston for (almost) NOTHING 

Post#367 » by nate33 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:44 am

I think they've given up on Vesely. I don't think we will see him crack the regular rotation for the rest of the year unless there are injuries. He'll only play in garbage time, and maybe once every blue moon when Randy feels the matchups favor it.

I think they're real disappointed in Vesely's lack of development. It wouldn't surprise me to see them decline his 4th year option (the 3rd year has already been accepted). It'll probably depend on how he looks in the offseason. Vesely was a huge mistake and it's pretty hard for them to remain in denial about it.
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Re: Big Balls traded to Boston for (almost) NOTHING 

Post#368 » by hands11 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:49 am

nate33 wrote:I think they've given up on Vesely. I don't think we will see him crack the regular rotation for the rest of the year unless there are injuries. He'll only play in garbage time, and maybe once every blue moon when Randy feels the matchups favor it.

I think they're real disappointed in Vesely's lack of development. It wouldn't surprise me to see them decline his 4th year option (the 3rd year has already been accepted). It'll probably depend on how he looks in the offseason. Vesely was a huge mistake and it's pretty hard for them to remain in denial about it.


Just wish I know what was going on in practice or behind closed doors.

I don't get it. He can't shoot from outside but he plays the team game Randy likes.

If he could just limit the fouls, you would think he would play. He wasn't always a fouling machine.

Again. Wish I had more information about what is going on.
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Re: Big Balls traded to Boston for (almost) NOTHING 

Post#369 » by closg00 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:25 pm

Boston Acquires Jordan Crawford from Washington for Leandro Barbosa and Jason Collins

Celtics: B+

Wizards: F


Looking to bolster their scoring off the bench, Boston took a chance on a volume shooter (41.5 percent on the season) but solid scorer (13.4 points a night) in Crawford. What makes this a clear win for the Celtics is that it only took sending a player on injured reserve (Barbosa) and a 34-year-old center that wasn’t getting much playing time.

While the Wizards do save some cash in acquiring two players in the midst of the final year of their contract, Washington should have seemingly held out for something better for the 24-year-old or just stood pat. It’s abundantly clear that Crawford wasn’t involved in the Wizards’ future plans but trading him for what amounts to less than $2 million in cap relief has to be considered taking a loss.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/grading-the-2 ... ine-deals/

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