2015 Scenarios (what the hell, it's July?)

[R-DAWG]

The big picture is, at the moment, 2015. The FO is not directionless. There seems to be a very deliberate plan.

if the big picture is 2015 why give up a pick for Bargnani. Why sign JR Smith to a 3 year deal. Why not trade Chandler and stockpile assets. The front office isn't concerned about 2015. They care about getting headlines NOW at all costs.

What they should have done in 2011:
Used the full MLE to sign a player to a 2 year, $10m deal
Used the bi annual exception to sign a player to a 2 year, $4m deal
Looked to see what they could get for Billups and Turiafs's expiring, again only taking back player with 2 year deals

The fans would have been excited, the players excited. Sell the first training camp and full year of Amare and Melo together. The goal being that in 2013 to have a roster with only Melo, Shumpert, and the 2015 1st under contract and $30 million in cap space the year BEFORE Melo has the opt out.

I am sure this plan could have resulted in 1-2 in playoff series over the last 2 years.

Because we feel like winning in the meantime. The Knicks don't share your opinion about your window.

It's not that hard.

winning championships or headlines?

because no team is winning a championship with Andrea Bargnani and JR Smith as the 2nd and 3rd best offensive players.

I hope i'm wrong but how did you watch last years playoffs after game 3 in Boston and feel like this team can contend. It's a team built for the regular season. Suspect defense, a million 3 pointers and guys that chuck up bad shots.

[seren]

What 4 year window? A four year window to lose in the first round? I understand they went all it, it didn't work out. Yes, they might have not been as good the past 2 years without Chandler. BUT why don't you admit that:
A) the Knicks have flopped in the playoffs the past 2 years and failed to meet expectations
and
B) the Knicks would be in a much better position today if they could amnesty Amare
and
C) if you went all in and you haven't accomplished your goal why do you keep doubling down (ie trading draft picks and handing out long term contracts)

This is an exaggeration. It is one thing to say the team is playing for a championship, but as realistic fans as well as the FO, we all knew that a 50+ win team and second round was a great success. In fact, last season was quite remarkable given our second best player was injured almost all year.

[Capn'O]

I think this is right. I heavily questioned the Melo move as I don't think he's a guy that can carry a deep playoff run. But once you commit... Commit hard.

I took flack last night for not being fully committed to ONE opinion, but I am committed to ONE concept, nuance.

I have doubts whether Melo is that guy either.

I also think he may have been the Knicks best option.

Those things can co-exist.

There is one Lebron James. And I think the KNicks took an honest pass at him. I have honest questions about who the next generation of franchise superstars are after Durant and Rose (who BOTH still have incomplete resumes themselves).

Sometimes the best move is the best available move.

The Knicks Stat-Melo window may close like the windows for most every competitive championship does, with a title, but I don't see this obvious alternative soem of your seems to think existed or would exist.

Hell, even the POTENTIAL 2015 FA class of Gasol, Love, Rondo and Aldridge doesn't exactly inspire awe.

Knicks are a HIGHLY imperfect team. Given the starting point of 2010, I'm not sure how reasonable it is to expect otherwise.

I can't kill the Knicks for the make-up of this team - it may not work, but that doesn't mean it may not also have been the best you could have reasonably expected.

Look at what the Rockets have done - not as an exact blueprint we could have followed. But their pieces match and they maintained their flexibility until they had a legit shot at pieces that matched. You have to think Howard looked at Houston and their two playmakers and shooters and thought "damn, that could work great. I see where I fit in." Once the Knicks got Stat, I wish they had held court and maintained flexibility for a piece that better matched.

I was advocating to either keep flexibility for a Paul trade or go in hard for Gasol in the summer as those pieces better fit with the existing piece (and coach). Melo is great but if you have one scoring forward with questionable defense why get another?

[R-DAWG]

What 4 year window? A four year window to lose in the first round? I understand they went all it, it didn't work out. Yes, they might have not been as good the past 2 years without Chandler. BUT why don't you admit that:
A) the Knicks have flopped in the playoffs the past 2 years and failed to meet expectations
and
B) the Knicks would be in a much better position today if they could amnesty Amare
and
C) if you went all in and you haven't accomplished your goal why do you keep doubling down (ie trading draft picks and handing out long term contracts)

This is an exaggeration. It is one thing to say the team is playing for a championship, but as realistic fans as well as the FO, we all knew that a 50+ win team and second round was a great success. In fact, last season was quite remarkable given our second best player was injured almost all year.

DId you watch the games? They were lucky they didn't blow a 3-0 lead to Boston and got killed by Indiana. KILLED by Indiana. With the exception of getting hot for 15 minutes in game 2 and George Hill missing game 5 the Knicks were no match for Indiana.

Going into the postseason everyone, me included, said a good season was the conference finals considering the injured to the rest of the top teams in the conference.

By Dolan standard last year was a great year. But I grew up under the Steinbrenner doctrine.

[GONYK]

I think this is right. I heavily questioned the Melo move as I don't think he's a guy that can carry a deep playoff run. But once you commit... Commit hard.

I took flack last night for not being fully committed to ONE opinion, but I am committed to ONE concept, nuance.

I have doubts whether Melo is that guy either.

I also think he may have been the Knicks best option.

Those things can co-exist.

There is one Lebron James. And I think the KNicks took an honest pass at him. I have honest questions about who the next generation of franchise superstars are after Durant and Rose (who BOTH still have incomplete resumes themselves).

Sometimes the best move is the best available move.

The Knicks Stat-Melo window may close like the windows for most every competitive championship does, with a title, but I don't see this obvious alternative soem of your seems to think existed or would exist.

Hell, even the POTENTIAL 2015 FA class of Gasol, Love, Rondo and Aldridge doesn't exactly inspire awe.

Knicks are a HIGHLY imperfect team. Given the starting point of 2010, I'm not sure how reasonable it is to expect otherwise.

I can't kill the Knicks for the make-up of this team - it may not work, but that doesn't mean it may not also have been the best you could have reasonably expected.

Look at what the Rockets have done - not as an exact blueprint we could have followed. But their pieces match and they maintained their flexibility until they had a legit shot at pieces that matched. You have to think Howard looked at Houston and their two playmakers and thought "damn, that could work great." Once the Knicks got Stat, I wish they had held court and maintained flexibility for a piece that better matched.

I was advocating to either keep flexibility for a Paul trade or go in hard for Gasol in the summer as those pieces better fit with the existing piece (and coach). You have one scoring forward with questionable defense. Why get another?

I asked this question in another thread, but can you think of a team that has operated like the Rockets (being a treadmill for 6 years) or even the Nuggets that hasn't done so out of fear of the luxury tax?

I can't think of one big market team who has done so, outside of maybe Chicago.

[R-DAWG]

I think this is right. I heavily questioned the Melo move as I don't think he's a guy that can carry a deep playoff run. But once you commit... Commit hard.

I took flack last night for not being fully committed to ONE opinion, but I am committed to ONE concept, nuance.

I have doubts whether Melo is that guy either.

I also think he may have been the Knicks best option.

Those things can co-exist.

There is one Lebron James. And I think the KNicks took an honest pass at him. I have honest questions about who the next generation of franchise superstars are after Durant and Rose (who BOTH still have incomplete resumes themselves).

Sometimes the best move is the best available move.

The Knicks Stat-Melo window may close like the windows for most every competitive championship does, with a title, but I don't see this obvious alternative soem of your seems to think existed or would exist.

Hell, even the POTENTIAL 2015 FA class of Gasol, Love, Rondo and Aldridge doesn't exactly inspire awe.

Knicks are a HIGHLY imperfect team. Given the starting point of 2010, I'm not sure how reasonable it is to expect otherwise.

I can't kill the Knicks for the make-up of this team - it may not work, but that doesn't mean it may not also have been the best you could have reasonably expected.

Look at what the Rockets have done - not as an exact blueprint we could have followed. But their pieces match and they maintained their flexibility until they had a legit shot at pieces that matched. You have to think Howard looked at Houston and their two playmakers and thought "damn, that could work great." Once the Knicks got Stat, I wish they had held court and maintained flexibility for a piece that better matched.

I was advocating to either keep flexibility for a Paul trade or go in hard for Gasol in the summer as those pieces better fit with the existing piece (and coach). You have one scoring forward with questionable defense. Why get another?

we have 2 scoring forwards with questionable defense, 1 with questionable health and just used one of our few assets to get another scoring forward with questionable defense and health

[TKF]

Lots of fires burning behind closed windows here....

LOL.. good to see you around man.

[cgmw]

OP, I don't know why you start your evaluation of Knicks management in 2010. We were still paying our way out of the Isiah years at that point with one of the most blatantly obvious examples being the Morey trade. Even Isiah never found himself completely out of the hole dug by his predecessor.

Personally, if I'm looking for a chunk of time to evaluate Knicks management, it starts back in the late nineties when Dolan threw Checkets and Grunfeld to the curb. It never ceases to amaze me how fans want to hold each successive GM accountable as if they haven't had the same medling boss all these years.

Grunny is a helluva lot better than Isiah. But they dance for the same master. The only difference I see is the insane degree to which Isiah went "all in" with the wrong hand. Grunny, to his credit, has shown some restraint. I don't know what he's up to by limiting contracts to Carmelo's end year, but at least he's not signing the Jerome James and Shandon Andersons of the world to longterm deals. Whether that's credit to him or to the new CBA, who knows.

But I hope he's got something great up his sleeve. If so and the Knicks actually win a 'chip, he'll be a NY legend for generations.

[seren]

DId you watch the games? They were lucky they didn't blow a 3-0 lead to Boston and got killed by Indiana. KILLED by Indiana. With the exception of getting hot for 15 minutes in game 2 and George Hill missing game 5 the Knicks were no match for Indiana.

Going into the postseason everyone, me included, said a good season was the conference finals considering the injured to the rest of the top teams in the conference.

By Dolan standard last year was a great year. But I grew up under the Steinbrenner doctrine.

I am not sure where you are going with this. I have stated in many posts that Indiana is a better theam than us and we were clearly owned by Indiana.

The balded part is your wishful expectations and are far from reality. Contrary to your belief not everyone claimed that. In fact, many people said 50+ wins and a second round exit is a success.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

[
winning championships or headlines?

because no team is winning a championship with Andrea Bargnani and JR Smith as the 2nd and 3rd best offensive players.

I hope i'm wrong but how did you watch last years playoffs after game 3 in Boston and feel like this team can contend. It's a team built for the regular season. Suspect defense, a million 3 pointers and guys that chuck up bad shots.

Wining enough to keep Melo from bolting. Basically we're buying time before we can get a proper robin for him. And the Bargs/MWP moves will help to preserve him, as he gets to go back to the 3 now.

[bklynstoops]

we have 2 scoring forwards with questionable defense, 1 with questionable health and just used one of our few assets to get another scoring forward with questionable defense and health

well, when you put it like that, it doesn't sound so great. Kenyon's still out there, right?

[R-DAWG]

[
winning championships or headlines?

because no team is winning a championship with Andrea Bargnani and JR Smith as the 2nd and 3rd best offensive players.

I hope i'm wrong but how did you watch last years playoffs after game 3 in Boston and feel like this team can contend. It's a team built for the regular season. Suspect defense, a million 3 pointers and guys that chuck up bad shots.

Wining enough to keep Melo from bolting. Basically we're buying time before we can get a proper robin for him. And the Bargs/MWP moves will help to preserve him, as he gets to go back to the 3 now.

I have no problem with the MWP move. It's a great move. But giving up one of the few assets available for Bargs hurts the teams ability to trade for a real Robin. It's not a knock on Bargs. With the costs associated with putting this team together, from sacrificing 2 seasons, first rd picks in 2012, 2014 and 2016 along with all the young assets previously on the roster and all future flexibility 50 wins and a 2nd rd exit is kind of disappointing.

It's kind of like leaving the club with a chick that's a 5 after throwing down big money for a table. It's better than a 2 but not the 9 you were hoping for.

During the season the Garden will be fun, a great place for business meetings and dates. But the buzz of this past year where I was showing up 45 minutes before playoff games is gone.

[Capn'O]

I asked this question in another thread, but can you think of a team that has operated like the Rockets (being a treadmill for 6 years) or even the Nuggets that hasn't done so out of fear of the luxury tax?

I can't think of one big market team who has done so, outside of maybe Chicago.

In general, the 2010 purge and binge model is pretty new. There isn't a lot of precedent either way. But I'm really only talking a matter of waiting a few more months here for a better fitting piece.

The Rox couldn't do much until Yao and Tmac were gone. Their real move lasted about 3 years.

[suicidedeuce]

What 4 year window? A four year window to lose in the first round? I understand they went all it, it didn't work out.

Yet.

A mature person should be able to acknowledge the window is still open, even if they doubt the KNicks are capable of taking advantage.

quote]Yes, they might have not been as good the past 2 years without Chandler. BUT why don't you admit that:
A) the Knicks have flopped in the playoffs the past 2 years and failed to meet expectations
and [/quote]

Because I think that is a highly emotional reaction based on dissappointment which is the perspective we've firmly established you're coming from.

I don't think they flopped in the playoffs the last 2 years, because I use judgment beyond the basic and superficial.

In terms of 2012 what I really think is the knicks flopped in the first 2/3rds of the REGULAR season, mostly because they had the wrong head coach, which was not Grunwald or the player's fault.

Because of this, they finished (and it took a AWESOME job by Woodson and the players to get there) 7th, which matched them up against the eventual NBA champions in the first round.

Now I suspect what think is the Knicks lost in the FIRST round, and you'd be technically accurate.

My take is they played the Heat not all that differently than the Thunder played them, difference being the Thunder had home court, lost 4 games in a row and had a healhty Durant, Westbrook and Harden.

So what you see as a failure of the postseason, i see as a failure of the frist 66% of the regular season.

B) the Knicks would be in a much better position today if they could amnesty Amare

His amnesty wouldn't create a dollar in cap room. Your point requires the ASSUMPTION the Knicks don't have a $75m plus payroll by some other means.

C) if you went all in and you haven't accomplished your goal why do you keep doubling down (ie trading draft picks and handing out long term contracts)

Because their is 2 more years left in the window we both acknowledge. I mean seriously, how many times do we need to go over this for you to finally realize your ENTIRE premise is based on your subjective, personal opinion the KNicks have reached their ceiling already?

[R-DAWG]

OP, I don't know why you start your evaluation of Knicks management in 2010. We were still paying our way out of the Isiah years at that point with one of the most blatantly obvious examples being the Morey trade. Even Isiah never found himself completely out of the hole dug by his predecessor.

Personally, if I'm looking for a chunk of time to evaluate Knicks management, it starts back in the late nineties when Dolan threw Checkets and Grunfeld to the curb. It never ceases to amaze me how fans want to hold each successive GM accountable as if they haven't had the same medling boss all these years.

Grunny is a helluva lot better than Isiah. But they dance for the same master. The only difference I see is the insane degree to which Isiah went "all in" with the wrong hand. Grunny, to his credit, has shown some restraint. I don't know what he's up to by limiting contracts to Carmelo's end year, but at least he's not signing the Jerome James and Shandon Andersons of the world to longterm deals. Whether that's credit to him or to the new CBA, who knows.

But I hope he's got something great up his sleeve. If so and the Knicks actually win a 'chip, he'll be a NY legend for generations.

the biggest mistake Checketts made was protecting Grunfeld instead of letting Riley control basketball operations. Grunfeld was fired by Checketts because in 1999, when they needed to fire someone to kick start the team, Ewing went to war for Van Gundy. They wanted to fire Van Gundy and bring in Phil. Ewing said no. Grunfeld got the boot.

[cgmw]

My point is the Knicks have been paying for past roster mistakes for nearly fifteen years. I've never tried to do it, but I'm sure you can draw an unbroken chain all the way back to Ewing's demise. Grunwald was forced to deal with Walsh's sh*t (Amar'e), and Grunwald's successor will be forced to deal with his.

That's what happens when the team's driving philosophy is to buy-buy-buy, but only on credit.

[R-DAWG]

What 4 year window? A four year window to lose in the first round? I understand they went all it, it didn't work out.

Yet.

A mature person should be able to acknowledge the window is still open, even if they doubt the KNicks are capable of taking advantage.

quote]Yes, they might have not been as good the past 2 years without Chandler. BUT why don't you admit that:
A) the Knicks have flopped in the playoffs the past 2 years and failed to meet expectations
and

Because I think that is a highly emotional reaction based on dissappointment which is the perspective we've firmly established you're coming from.

I don't think they flopped in the playoffs the last 2 years, because I use judgment beyond the basic and superficial.

In terms of 2012 what I really think is the knicks flopped in the first 2/3rds of the REGULAR season, mostly because they had the wrong head coach, which was not Grunwald or the player's fault.

Because of this, they finished (and it took a AWESOME job by Woodson and the players to get there) 7th, which matched them up against the eventual NBA champions in the first round.

Now I suspect what think is the Knicks lost in the FIRST round, and you'd be technically accurate.

My take is they played the Heat not all that differently than the Thunder played them, difference being the Thunder had home court, lost 4 games in a row and had a healhty Durant, Westbrook and Harden.

So what you see as a failure of the postseason, i see as a failure of the frist 66% of the regular season.

B) the Knicks would be in a much better position today if they could amnesty Amare

His amnesty wouldn't create a dollar in cap room. Your point requires the ASSUMPTION the Knicks don't have a $75m plus payroll by some other means.

C) if you went all in and you haven't accomplished your goal why do you keep doubling down (ie trading draft picks and handing out long term contracts)

Because their is 2 more years left in the window we both acknowledge. I mean seriously, how many times do we need to go over this for you to finally realize your ENTIRE premise is based on your subjective, personal opinion the KNicks have reached their ceiling already?[/quote]

A) for whatever reason - the coach, the players, not having a starting guard on the roster, whatever, the team did not accomplish the goals in 2012. No one said we got Tyson Chandler were going to be the 7th seed and lose in the first round. Even with Chandler that roster was EXTREMELY flawed. Forget weather or not Chandler would fit with Amare/Melo or Melo and Amare could fit (all still questions) is any team winning a championship with Mike Bibby and Baron Davis as PG? Come on man. There were moves that could have been made that improved the team with burning the amnesty, they just may not have been as flashy as Tyson Chandler. Weather you consider the playoff result a failure is up to you, but going all in and losing in the first round is failing in my book.

B) Yes, my assumption is that if the team was smart enough to hold onto the amnesty for Amare they wouldn't blow the cap space on other garbage. My plan, as I clearly stated, was to sign guys to 2 year contracts. Have a 2 year window with Melo-Amare and then have a chance to rebuild around Melo before his salary got to Kobe level. Again, long term planning.

C) Window for what? Winning a championship? Or 2 years left until we get Amare's contract off the books? What's this window were talking about here. It sounds like 2 more years until we have cap space to play with but by the organizations actions the past 2 years guys like Novak and JR are more important than cap space. And as far as flipping contracts, you need ASSETS to get quality players. When you don't have assets you end up flipping expiring for longer contracts that other teams don't want.

[BOOMbip]

As some people keep talking they can't help but make even less sense and become even more wrapped up in their hysterical exaggerations.

[suicidedeuce]

I think this is right. I heavily questioned the Melo move as I don't think he's a guy that can carry a deep playoff run. But once you commit... Commit hard.

I took flack last night for not being fully committed to ONE opinion, but I am committed to ONE concept, nuance.

I have doubts whether Melo is that guy either.

I also think he may have been the Knicks best option.

Those things can co-exist.

There is one Lebron James. And I think the KNicks took an honest pass at him. I have honest questions about who the next generation of franchise superstars are after Durant and Rose (who BOTH still have incomplete resumes themselves).

Sometimes the best move is the best available move.

The Knicks Stat-Melo window may close like the windows for most every competitive championship does, with a title, but I don't see this obvious alternative soem of your seems to think existed or would exist.

Hell, even the POTENTIAL 2015 FA class of Gasol, Love, Rondo and Aldridge doesn't exactly inspire awe.

Knicks are a HIGHLY imperfect team. Given the starting point of 2010, I'm not sure how reasonable it is to expect otherwise.

I can't kill the Knicks for the make-up of this team - it may not work, but that doesn't mean it may not also have been the best you could have reasonably expected.

Look at what the Rockets have done - not as an exact blueprint we could have followed. But their pieces match and they maintained their flexibility until they had a legit shot at pieces that matched. You have to think Howard looked at Houston and their two playmakers and shooters and thought "damn, that could work great. I see where I fit in." Once the Knicks got Stat, I wish they had held court and maintained flexibility for a piece that better matched.

I get how fans look at (what appears at the moment) to be the success of one team and argue why their team couldn't have done the same thing, but the truth is, what the Rockets have done IS dependent on a string of circumstances.

The 2013 Rockets should rename themselves the Houston Butterfly Effects.

They were in position to get Howard through some shrewd cap management AND because OTHER free agents and trade targets passed them over.

They deserve all the credit in the world, but they ALSO got lucky someone else they were trying to acquire didn't take up their cap space AND that DW landed in the usual circumstances of leaving the Lakers as a free agent.

As I say, I give Houston credit. I also acknowledge they were in the position they were in because they also struck out previously.

using what happened to them (before they actually do anything) as a blueprint is suspect.

[R-DAWG]

I took flack last night for not being fully committed to ONE opinion, but I am committed to ONE concept, nuance.

I have doubts whether Melo is that guy either.

I also think he may have been the Knicks best option.

Those things can co-exist.

There is one Lebron James. And I think the KNicks took an honest pass at him. I have honest questions about who the next generation of franchise superstars are after Durant and Rose (who BOTH still have incomplete resumes themselves).

Sometimes the best move is the best available move.

The Knicks Stat-Melo window may close like the windows for most every competitive championship does, with a title, but I don't see this obvious alternative soem of your seems to think existed or would exist.

Hell, even the POTENTIAL 2015 FA class of Gasol, Love, Rondo and Aldridge doesn't exactly inspire awe.

Knicks are a HIGHLY imperfect team. Given the starting point of 2010, I'm not sure how reasonable it is to expect otherwise.

I can't kill the Knicks for the make-up of this team - it may not work, but that doesn't mean it may not also have been the best you could have reasonably expected.

Look at what the Rockets have done - not as an exact blueprint we could have followed. But their pieces match and they maintained their flexibility until they had a legit shot at pieces that matched. You have to think Howard looked at Houston and their two playmakers and shooters and thought "damn, that could work great. I see where I fit in." Once the Knicks got Stat, I wish they had held court and maintained flexibility for a piece that better matched.

I get how fans look at (what appears at the moment) to be the success of one team and argue why their team couldn't have done the same thing, but the truth is, what the Rockets have done IS dependent on a string of circumstances.

The 2013 Rockets should rename themselves the Houston Butterfly Effects.

They were in position to get Howard through some shrewd cap management AND because OTHER free agents and trade targets passed them over.

They deserve all the credit in the world, but they ALSO got lucky someone else they were trying to acquire didn't take up their cap space AND that DW landed in the usual circumstances of leaving the Lakers as a free agent.

As I say, I give Houston credit. I also acknowledge they were in the position they were in because they also struck out previously.

using what happened to them (before they actually do anything) as a blueprint is suspect.

What the Rockets did was put themselves in position to take advantage of the opportunities. They have a very smart and creative GM and a patient owner. They had a plan, they started on the long path of executing it, and luck broke their way.

It's like that old saying, the harder I work the luckier I get.