Image ImageImage Image

Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls

Moderators: Ben, Senor Chang, HomoSapien, Morten Jensen, Mark K, DASMACKDOWN, Rerisen, DuckIII, fleet, alucryts, Tommy Udo 6

User avatar
jl342323
General Manager
Posts: 8,454
And1: 474
Joined: May 26, 2010

Re: Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls 

Post#41 » by jl342323 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:09 pm

WinCity wrote:
:lol:

but seriously looking at Webbers reasoning it comes down to two things: First, the O and D ratings for these two teams. Now, which would Melo an offensive powerhouse with limited defensive impact compliment better:

Off Rtg: 111.0 (4th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 106.3 (13th of 30)

Off Rtg: 102.5 (28th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 100.5 (2nd of 30)

and then we have coaching:

Thibs

vs

McHale

I mean is that even a contest?


You give Thibs a Rose and Melo next season I guarantee he gives us a top 6-7 offense at worst, and still a top 3 defense. Whats McHale going to do to improve HOU's D with Melo? Are they really going to improve over 4th rated O?



Melo is the ideal player the bulls should get. I have been saying the bulls would be better off with 3 perimeter threats + taj and noah. that is a championship lineup.

What i wrote in my first post in this thread was a response to CWebb on the bulls offense. The bulls offense sucked, even with Derrick Rose. Mainly because thibs built his system emphasizing his defense way too much.
“He don’t care (about offense). He just cares about defense. When we come down or shoot a bad shot or whatever, he don’t really care about that. -Rose talking about Thibs
User avatar
The Force.
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,783
And1: 420
Joined: May 30, 2008
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls 

Post#42 » by The Force. » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:10 pm

I mean, he's probably right that Melo shouldn't come to Chicago but his reasoning is pretty dumb. Rose's health is the main reason FA will likely shy away from the Bulls. It has nothing to do with Thibs.
User avatar
RoseTheFuture22
Starter
Posts: 2,336
And1: 181
Joined: Dec 16, 2008

Re: Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls 

Post#43 » by RoseTheFuture22 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:11 pm

Mediocre offense yes, terrible no. The biggest problem during Thib's time here is we've had no shooters in an era that shooting is at an absolute premium
User avatar
Rerisen
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 82,319
And1: 10,789
Joined: Nov 23, 2003

Re: Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls 

Post#44 » by Rerisen » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:15 pm

jl342323 wrote:What i wrote in my first post in this thread was a response to CWebb on the bulls offense. The bulls offense sucked, even with Derrick Rose. Mainly because thibs built his system emphasizing his defense way too much.


It wasn't just about Thibs, the management brought in lopsided defensive talent, and failed at bringing proper offensive talent.

The offense wasn't good, because outside Rose, it did not have good offensive talent.
Mirotic minutes with healthy frontcourt watch: 14.3 MPG
User avatar
Mr. Tibbs
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,879
And1: 147
Joined: Jun 25, 2006

Re: Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls 

Post#45 » by Mr. Tibbs » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:18 pm

Magilla_Gorilla wrote:In Roses last two healthy seasons the Bulls had the 11th and 5th rated offenses in the NBA.


My first move as soon as I read that article was to confirm on basketball reference that I hadn't completely forgotten the 10-12 seasons. Even if you throw an asterisk on the 5th rated offense due to a shortened season, if we made an 11th ranked offense without Melo, I feel like its reasonable we could do the same or better with him.
RIP Johnny Red Kerr, Norm Van Lier, Pdenninggolden, Bullsmaniac
User avatar
Mech Engineer
RealGM
Posts: 10,005
And1: 1,697
Joined: Apr 10, 2012
Location: NW Suburbs

Re: Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls 

Post#46 » by Mech Engineer » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:21 pm

Rerisen wrote:
jl342323 wrote:What i wrote in my first post in this thread was a response to CWebb on the bulls offense. The bulls offense sucked, even with Derrick Rose. Mainly because thibs built his system emphasizing his defense way too much.


It wasn't just about Thibs, the management brought in lopsided defensive talent, and failed at bringing proper offensive talent.

The offense wasn't good, because outside Rose, it did not have good offensive talent.


When your SG plan went from D-Wade/Joe Johnson/JJ Reddick to Keith Bogans/Ronnie Brewer, I don't know if you can blame Thibs much on devising a scheme not involving much plays for his SG.

And, you lose your superstar and the main ball handler, trade your 2nd best player for nothing and your 2nd highest paid player decides to amnesty himself on the court...and Thibs has to run his offense through his Center, it is not on Thibs. Actually, after the all-star break the Bulls were in the low 20s in offensive rating(not good but not last either).
ChiCitySPORTS#1
RealGM
Posts: 14,706
And1: 1,284
Joined: Jul 02, 2006
Location: West Loop

Re: Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls 

Post#47 » by ChiCitySPORTS#1 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:40 pm

Melo doesnt need to be coached by an offensive minded coach. He's already one of the best offensive players in the league, he'll get his regardless.
Betta Bulleavit
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,888
And1: 434
Joined: Oct 29, 2004
       

Re: Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls 

Post#48 » by Betta Bulleavit » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:42 pm

jl342323 wrote:
WinCity wrote:
:lol:

but seriously looking at Webbers reasoning it comes down to two things: First, the O and D ratings for these two teams. Now, which would Melo an offensive powerhouse with limited defensive impact compliment better:

Off Rtg: 111.0 (4th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 106.3 (13th of 30)

Off Rtg: 102.5 (28th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 100.5 (2nd of 30)

and then we have coaching:

Thibs

vs

McHale

I mean is that even a contest?


You give Thibs a Rose and Melo next season I guarantee he gives us a top 6-7 offense at worst, and still a top 3 defense. Whats McHale going to do to improve HOU's D with Melo? Are they really going to improve over 4th rated O?



Melo is the ideal player the bulls should get. I have been saying the bulls would be better off with 3 perimeter threats + taj and noah. that is a championship lineup.

What i wrote in my first post in this thread was a response to CWebb on the bulls offense. The bulls offense sucked, even with Derrick Rose. Mainly because thibs built his system emphasizing his defense way too much.

You insist that the Bulls offense sucked even when Derrick Rose was healthy yet willfully disregard the metrics from those very seasons, which tell a different story. The bottom line is this. The Bulls' offense has sucked when the Bulls offensive options have sucked. Melo would help just a tad in that regard....
User avatar
PJ Brown
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,004
And1: 84
Joined: Feb 20, 2002
Location: SF by way of Albany Park
     

Re: Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls 

Post#49 » by PJ Brown » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:50 pm

You're one of the top scorers in the league. The Bulls are a top defensive unit that needs a scorer. That actually adds up.
User avatar
jl342323
General Manager
Posts: 8,454
And1: 474
Joined: May 26, 2010

Re: Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls 

Post#50 » by jl342323 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:52 pm

Betta Bulleavit wrote:You insist that the Bulls offense sucked even when Derrick Rose was healthy yet willfully disregard the metrics from those very seasons, which tell a different story.


Offensive rating doesnt mean much when you cant score in the last 5 minutes of the game.

It doesnt matter what you do in the regular season when nothing translates well to the playoffs.

The bottom line is this. The Bulls' offense has sucked when the Bulls offensive options have sucked.


are you playing chicken or the egg game with me? IMO, Thibs doesnt put everyone in the right position to get buckets. He focuses way too much of his time on defense and out of bounds plays that he neglects fundamentals on the offensive side. Its no wonder John Lucas the 3 and Kyle Korver publicly said Thibs doesnt give a **** about offense. Even Derrick Rose said something similar.
“He don’t care (about offense). He just cares about defense. When we come down or shoot a bad shot or whatever, he don’t really care about that. -Rose talking about Thibs
lostonbase
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,940
And1: 180
Joined: Nov 11, 2004
Location: Vail Co
       

Re: Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls 

Post#51 » by lostonbase » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:54 pm

If Thibs had the horses, he would have an offense.
Stratmaster
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,038
And1: 1,015
Joined: Oct 02, 2010
       

Re: Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls 

Post#52 » by Stratmaster » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:55 pm

I have to agree with him about Thibs lack of offensive savvy. I have been saying that for 3 seasons now. Had the Bulls done what I suggested back then, and got an offensive minded assistant coach, they wouldn't have this concern.

As far as the Bulls being in the top half of the league offensively with Rose, having the 3rd best scorer in the league will make just about any team a top half offensive team. If you watched the Bulls for those seasons you were not watching a good offensive scheme. In fact, you weren't really watching an offensive scheme. You were watching an explosive player.

However, that doesn't mean Melo should run from the Bulls. In fact, Melo has always had a rep as a ball stopper and is probably perfectly suited for the Bulls and for a coach who's best approach to offense is to give the ball to a scorer and let him create points.
Thibs had a blood test done. He is human. They also placed kryptonite next to him, and he did not become ill.
User avatar
dumbell78
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,397
And1: 1,770
Joined: Apr 03, 2012
Location: Sydney, Aus. by way of Muddy Water land (Chicago)
       

Re: Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls 

Post#53 » by dumbell78 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:56 pm

lulz Chris, that made perfect sense.
The D-Rose thread:
GimmeDat wrote:I just saw him get compared to Carlos f***king Boozer.
Betta Bulleavit
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,888
And1: 434
Joined: Oct 29, 2004
       

Re: Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls 

Post#54 » by Betta Bulleavit » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:57 pm

jl342323 wrote:
Betta Bulleavit wrote:You insist that the Bulls offense sucked even when Derrick Rose was healthy yet willfully disregard the metrics from those very seasons, which tell a different story.


Offensive rating doesnt mean much when you cant score in the last 5 minutes of the game.

It doesnt matter what you do in the regular season when nothing translates well to the playoffs.

The bottom line is this. The Bulls' offense has sucked when the Bulls offensive options have sucked.


are you playing chicken or the egg game with me? IMO, Thibs doesnt put everyone in the right position to get buckets. He focuses way too much of his time on defense and out of bounds plays that he neglects fundamentals on the offensive side. Its no wonder John Lucas the 3 and Kyle Korver publicly said Thibs doesnt give a **** about offense. Even Derrick Rose said something similar.


I suppose this is where we will have to agree to disagree. Obviously Thibs is more of a defensive coach and always will be. That's his identity. However, he does run an offensive system that is predicated on constant ball movement and finding the open shooter. The problem with that type of offense is that it doesn't work very well when you don't have guys that can knock down shots. And for that matter, I can't think of too many offenses that will work without guys that can consistently knock down shots. It's just damn hard.

To your point about not being able to score in the last 5 minutes of games...that's a very obvious problem. Nobody is going to disagree with you there. But that's not a system problem...that's a personnel problem. One that (again) Melo would go a long way towards fixing.
Stratmaster
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,038
And1: 1,015
Joined: Oct 02, 2010
       

Re: Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls 

Post#55 » by Stratmaster » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:58 pm

lostonbase wrote:If Thibs had the horses, he would have an offense.


No. No he wouldn't. Or at least only to the extent of what that talent can creat on its own. Thibs had the 3rd best scorer in the league, a proven scorer in Boozer, Deng, Korver... He never understood how to use his best offensive players.

I mean yeah, if he had Rose, Melo, Love he would have an offense despite his weaknesses as an offensive coach. But then so would any other coach in the league.
Thibs had a blood test done. He is human. They also placed kryptonite next to him, and he did not become ill.
User avatar
Rerisen
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 82,319
And1: 10,789
Joined: Nov 23, 2003

Re: Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls 

Post#56 » by Rerisen » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:59 pm

People must have forgotten that Thibs stole and inserted a bunch of SA plays to start the year, and planned to revamp the offense around 'read and react', a very similar style to how the Spurs play.

He might have been thinking in real time right along with Pop on how to defeat the top dog.

But it didn't work because we didn't have the talent to make it work, lack of shooting and on ball handling, and Rose wasn't healthy nor used to playing in such a way, and then he got hurt again before he could even try to learn it, ruining the season.
Mirotic minutes with healthy frontcourt watch: 14.3 MPG
Stratmaster
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,038
And1: 1,015
Joined: Oct 02, 2010
       

Re: Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls 

Post#57 » by Stratmaster » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:02 pm

micromonkey wrote:Chris--calm down and take a time out.

Wait do you have a timeout? :D


Yeah, and he is talking about playing smart lol
Thibs had a blood test done. He is human. They also placed kryptonite next to him, and he did not become ill.
User avatar
jl342323
General Manager
Posts: 8,454
And1: 474
Joined: May 26, 2010

Re: Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls 

Post#58 » by jl342323 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:08 pm

Betta Bulleavit wrote:I suppose this is where we will have to agree to disagree. Obviously Thibs is more of a defensive coach and always will be. That's his identity. However, he does run an offensive system that is predicated on constant ball movement and finding the open shooter.



Thibs doesnt have an offensive system. When he had healthy Derrick Rose it was all about get him the best shot at the basket. Then there was constant single double screen plays for rip/kover and some utah flex to get boozer going. That wasnt a system, he used plays from legendary coaches like sloan, daly, coach k as a decoy to set up Derrick Rose. Like Strat said above, Thibs' best approach to offense is to give the ball to Derrick Rose.

And lastly, the bulls ball movement looked the best when they had korver, brewer, and boozer playing together.
“He don’t care (about offense). He just cares about defense. When we come down or shoot a bad shot or whatever, he don’t really care about that. -Rose talking about Thibs
User avatar
kyrv
RealGM
Posts: 54,623
And1: 1,989
Joined: Jan 02, 2003
Location: Ducktown

Re: Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls 

Post#59 » by kyrv » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:12 pm

Magilla_Gorilla wrote:In Roses last two healthy seasons the Bulls had the 11th and 5th rated offenses in the NBA.


:lol:

Thanks for your input Weber. You need a timeout.
dice wrote:"please, josh smith. please make me look less dumb for letting parsons walk" - daryl morey
by the way, nick young and josh smith are starters on my clown nickname squad
User avatar
DRoseCantStop
General Manager
Posts: 8,403
And1: 2,009
Joined: Feb 17, 2013
   

Re: Webber: Melo Run from the Bulls 

Post#60 » by DRoseCantStop » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:12 pm

Jerry Sloan, we could use your offense
2015 NBA Finals: Warriors vs. Bulls

WAS --> ATL --> CLE --> GSW

Return to Chicago Bulls