Justin Holiday - a keeper?

Mech Engineer · Post #21 » by **Mech Engineer** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:23 pm

From what I heard on the radio, the Bulls wanted the cheapest deal back(they had to get one back). And, Holliday''s was the cheapest deal they could get back from the Hawks. If there was a cheap PF or Center, they probably would have taken him back. That tells me they didn't get Holiday to challenge Snell for minutes but a contract who happens to be a wing.

donaldtrump_00 · Post #22 » by **donaldtrump_00** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:43 pm

Rerisen wrote:I guess 9.3 PER, .503 TS% is a big upgrade when we are used to Kirk eh?

But I have liked his defense.

He'd be an ok 3rd stringer, but I don't think ideally you want him AND Moore in your rotation.

Whatever... he's already done more then kirk this season. He's better then snell also. Is it ppl want gar gone so bad they can't give him credit for a decent trade. I'll take etwaun and Holiday all day over kirk and snell. Snell knows his time in chi is dim with a unknown type player coming in and do in what he was supposed to do all year. I'm sick of the bashing of the mediocre players that show signs of being better then there vet has been but nobody wants them. Bring him back. He's not useless. He seems to be gaining more confidence each game. He's played in golden state. He's been around winners. Ppl bitch all day about a backup wing who's young and athletic and can shoot and defend. Holiday does that reguardless of whether it's on a mediocre level. Snell can't do it. I guess fans see a player who's been here for 3 years and get used to them and except the fact they suck. Holiday not a female type player like snell is. Not afraid of stepping up.

Bomba Navarro · Post #23 » by **Bomba Navarro** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:50 pm

I won't give Forman credit for a trade he only used to dump salary.
I can't believe people still fool themselves into thinking this was anything but a salary dumping move that by chance turned out better than expected.

donaldtrump_00 · Post #24 » by **donaldtrump_00** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:04 pm

mj234eva wrote:This is what it has come to.

It's not that holiday is a keeper. It's the fact he's already better then snell. The part that's real sad is I'm sure the Bulls didn't know a single thing about him till now. I'm sure there's someone even better we can get but it his price and knowing how cheap this organization is he is a keeper. And bairstow needs to go this summer. Felico also. When Bulls bring in guys at the end of the roster it doesn't mean they have to be terrible. But holiday is proving he's no bust. I actually think he is better then he's played. Just needed a weak team like this to use him

MrSparkle · Post #25 » by **MrSparkle** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:56 pm

weneeda2guard wrote:The bulls didn't grab him because they were trying to improve the roster

They got him because it was the best case scenario to lower tax cost

Him coming in and out shining half the roster is not the testimony of his talent but more a indictment on how piss poor the talent pool of this roster is.

Spot on , my dude.

I've been saying for a while, the Bulls FO loooooooooooves bringing in YMCA-caliber talent at the 9-15 roster spots.

Going into the last 2 seasons, we knew that Kirk was basically a 3rd/4th-string PG that you want on the team solely for occasional 10-15 minute stints, and great locker-room presence. Same with Nazr. Don't get me started on Bairstow, Eric Murphy and Mike James.

Instead this FO has enjoyed making such guys primary backups for SEVERAL YEARS in a row. Absolutely asinine.

And with multiple question marks like Snell, Doug, Moore and past-prime vets like Dunleavy... this past summer was more than due time to reload with guys like Justin Holiday. Shuffle the deck, try some new guys out. As usual, they did it by swapping Kirk, but 6 months too late.

So yeah, it's disturbing to see Justin Holiday (and E'taun Moore for that matter) outperforming half the roster. Highly disturbing, and of little surprise (to me). I've been saying for 3 years that we have THE worst guard rotation in the league. Sure, Jimmy is elite, and Rose was elite (and carries half-high expectations when he's "healthy"), but the backup guards have been an epic joke, often bailed out by vet. min. waiver signings.

MC3 · Post #26 » by **MC3** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:43 pm

Mech Engineer wrote:From what I heard on the radio, the Bulls wanted the cheapest deal back(they had to get one back). And, Holliday''s was the cheapest deal they could get back from the Hawks. If there was a cheap PF or Center, they probably would have taken him back. That tells me they didn't get Holiday to challenge Snell for minutes but a contract who happens to be a wing.

Ofcourse they didnt. They didnt sign any SF last few years cause they believed in Snell and Doug. And they decided not to trade one expandable bigs for starting wing. Gar Forman and John paxson AKA GARPAX believe in their draft picks so much they basically undermine the team. Specially when Dunleavy was out half a year. Can you imagine such negligence in some other organization? I can't. Team which contend do moves, and they improve their rosters, fix their holes. Teams which tank sell vets for assets. We? We do jacks*it. Stand pat. Believing in cheap rookie contracts and salary dumping from time to time.

For me it's funny and ironic situation. That some Holiday is outperforming GarPax boy from New Mexico and taken his position in less then a 3 weeks. But in other hand it makes me sick, cause they will if Holiday is really good will take credit for that. When they really shouldnt. Doug on other hand seems to have some backbone. He will probably never be worth price we paid to get him, unless he is superstar or all-star in making. But hey, if Doug plays well and continue to improve he will be fun to watch.

musiqsoulchild · Post #27 » by **musiqsoulchild** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:49 pm

If you don't have a bunch of small contracts that punch above their weight then you can't be a team that carries essentially 30 Million of dead salary for the last 2-3 years.

And if we want to get a couple of decent players this coming offseason ( 1 via trade and the other via cap space) then these super cheap contracts are super helpful in building a very strong team:

Portis
Felicio
Holiday
Doug
Snell
Bairstow

Some of them can play - some can't. But collectively they are giving you about 3 rotational slots while taking up very little money.

We'll have heavy salary consumption in our Top 4-5 players. The top heavy nature of such a roster is complimented by a very light contractual load in the remaining positions.

I think we'll only keep Niko at his current salary. Everyone else is either gone, traded or re-signed for value contracts ( Moore)

That allows us to go big on trades. Or dumps to clear up cap space. See what Riley did after spending close to 70 Million dollars on just 4 players ( Bosh, LeBron, Wade, Miller).

Mech Engineer · Post #28 » by **Mech Engineer** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:59 pm

For all the whining about the Bulls frontcourt, they are paid a lot less than most teams collectively for GarPax not to make moves. Pau and Taj are both on below-market contracts. Noah was probably the only one on a regular-market contract. It is not like the Bulls are paying max money to a big to not afford a decent wing or decent backup PG. They have messed up in their evaluations of multiple wings/guards to land themselves in this crap where a discard like Holliday looks like a starting wing.

Post #29 » by **DASMACKDOWN** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:14 am

Bomba Navarro wrote:I won't give Forman credit for a trade he only used to dump salary.
I can't believe people still fool themselves into thinking this was anything but a salary dumping move that by chance turned out better than expected.

He has been pretty lucky to strike gold more than once. Remember the Noce salary dump? No one saw Salmons and old Brad Miller giving us the jolt they did in the second half of that season. We had like the best offense in the league when they arrived. I know what wasn't what he had in mind.

I guess he still gets credit for it?

Post #30 » by **Ice Man** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:18 am

Absolutely. And who knew? Nice 2-way rotation player.

Post #31 » by **DASMACKDOWN** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:19 am

He also is technically a 'Hoiberg guy' figuring that he was at Golden St and Atlanta, two places that play the same style.

RagingBull316 · Post #32 » by **RagingBull316** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:33 am

DASMACKDOWN wrote:
Bomba Navarro wrote:I won't give Forman credit for a trade he only used to dump salary.
I can't believe people still fool themselves into thinking this was anything but a salary dumping move that by chance turned out better than expected.

He has been pretty lucky to strike gold more than once. Remember the Noce salary dump? No one saw Salmons and old Brad Miller giving us the jolt they did in the second half of that season. We had like the best offense in the league when they arrived. I know what wasn't what he had in mind.

I guess he still gets credit for it?

He wasn't even GM in February 2009 when that trade happened. He wasn't promoted until May.

HoopsterJones · Post #33 » by **HoopsterJones** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:43 am

I like Holiday. Plays some good defense, has length and athleticism, can handle the ball, and has made some buckets.

He is an upgrade over Snell. And is on the books for $1 million next season. Good enough to be the 2nd or 3rd guard off the bench for now.

AKfanatic · Post #34 » by **AKfanatic** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:54 am

musiqsoulchild wrote:Why is this a lucky acquisition?.

Because good in regards to our FO is always luck...or so I've heard.

Luck or not, I do like what I've seen from Holiday. He plays hard, has some athleticism and length. He's looking like a nice middle of the bench energy/defensive guy. I'm really interested is seeing if he shows any growth after an offseason with the Bulls.....invite him to the gym Buckets!

musiqsoulchild · Post #35 » by **musiqsoulchild** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:56 am

AKfanatic wrote:
musiqsoulchild wrote:Why is this a lucky acquisition?.

Because good in regards to our FO is always luck...or so I've heard.

Luck or not, I do like what I've seen from Holiday. He plays hard, has some athleticism and length. He's looking like a nice middle of the bench energy/defensive guy. I'm really interested is seeing if he shows any growth after an offseason with the Bulls.....invite him to the gym Buckets!

That trade also created a TPE that can be used to get the best vet min guy on the market --- because the TPE > the vet min.

AKfanatic · Post #36 » by **AKfanatic** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:01 am

musiqsoulchild wrote:
AKfanatic wrote:
musiqsoulchild wrote:Why is this a lucky acquisition?.

Because good in regards to our FO is always luck...or so I've heard.

Luck or not, I do like what I've seen from Holiday. He plays hard, has some athleticism and length. He's looking like a nice middle of the bench energy/defensive guy. I'm really interested is seeing if he shows any growth after an offseason with the Bulls.....invite him to the gym Buckets!

That trade also created a TPE that can be used to get the best vet min guy on the market --- because the TPE > the vet min.

Was it? I wasn't aware of that...though I suppose given the salaries involved I should've realized that it did and gave us "flexibility". We all know how much GarPax love flexibility. Perhaps they'll use the savings to hire a yogacharya to keep the team flexible also.

musiqsoulchild · Post #37 » by **musiqsoulchild** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:16 am

AKfanatic wrote:
musiqsoulchild wrote:
AKfanatic wrote:

Because good in regards to our FO is always luck...or so I've heard.

Luck or not, I do like what I've seen from Holiday. He plays hard, has some athleticism and length. He's looking like a nice middle of the bench energy/defensive guy. I'm really interested is seeing if he shows any growth after an offseason with the Bulls.....invite him to the gym Buckets!

That trade also created a TPE that can be used to get the best vet min guy on the market --- because the TPE > the vet min.

Was it? I wasn't aware of that...though I suppose given the salaries involved I should've realized that it did and gave us "flexibility". We all know how much GarPax love flexibility. Perhaps they'll use the savings to hire a yogacharya to keep the team flexible also.

Ha!

The TPE is worth $2.5 - $2.8 Million. Enough to absorb another quality bench PG next to Rose and Moore next season.

Thats why all these small contracts that we are collecting are so damn important. Financially, the shape we are taking in salary structure ......it sure looks like we are about to have a KAPOW offseason.

tiffac · Post #38 » by **tiffac** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:17 am

I just think Tony Snell and my answer becomes very obvious.

AKfanatic · Post #39 » by **AKfanatic** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:23 am

musiqsoulchild wrote:
Ha!

The TPE is worth $2.5 - $2.8 Million. Enough to absorb another quality bench PG next to Rose and Moore next season.

Thats why all these small contracts that we are collecting are so damn important. Financially, the shape we are taking in salary structure ......it sure looks like we are about to have a KAPOW offseason.

Boy I hope so.

I said at the beginning of the season I viewed this season as one in which the FO would see what they have in Rose, Butler, and the youth before looking to build a team to compete with their new coach and new vision, regardless of sound bytes about contention.

I've been willing to give them the offseason to put it together, though I'd still like Gar gone. I think they've set themselves up for a nice reload...not sure the pieces will be available for it. I am interested in seeing if they pull it off though.

musiqsoulchild · Post #40 » by **musiqsoulchild** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:33 am

Next season:

PG: Rose / Gap / Gap ( 20 Million)
SG: Jimmy / Holiday / Snell ( 22 Million)
SF: Gap / Doug / Dunleavy ( 7 Million)
PF: Gap / Niko / Felicio ( 8 Million)
C: Taj / Portis / Bairstow ( 12 Million)

With the following assets to plug gaps:
1) Close to 18 Million in cap space
2) Kirk trade TPE (2.8 Million)
3) Our draft pick
4) Tradeable + Expiring contracts in Niko + Dunleavy + Taj totalling 22 Million ( think Melo) or Batum.

Its becoming an easier problem to solve with each day. Rose is still the key but not as much as in prior seasons.