Has Lebron caught Michael Jeffrey Jordan

[wully834]

Lebron will never be better than mike. As much as they want 2 force it. Lebron legacy is already as amazing as it can get . One of the greatest to play the sport , one of the greatest athletes in general of all sports. But catching MJ ship to me has already sailed . Even if he wins 1 or 2 more.

[cpower]

Lebron has too much ups and downs in the playoffs. He also needs a finisher (Wade/ Irving) to be able to close out series. He had the chance to surpass Jordan since he has all the tools but the scoring is just not on the same level as Jordan.

[HurricaneKid]

In all of Jordan's championship wins, he ALWAYS had Pippen and a solid supporting cast (Grant, Cartwright, Paxon, Armstrong, Hodges) ... Rodman, Kukoc, Longley.

2015 Cavaliers were Lebron and NOONE else!
2015-16 Cavaliers had a supporting cast, but Lebron carried that team. Like Kerr hitting game winning shot with Jordan, Irving hit the game winning shot with Lebron.

well remember the Heat big 3 first season they lost so you can't make the excuse when he lost that they didn't always have enough talent.

The first time he went to the finals he gets a pass because he had a horrible Cavs team but while on the Heat they had three HOF players and didn't always manage to win.

I'm not picking on you per se but this is something I see WAY too often; people conflating the 11 team with the 12 and 13 teams.

You are right that the Heat had 3 great players. But they didn't have Battier or Allen yet. In fact, the Heat started Joel Anthony and Mike Bibby in the Finals. Bibby tried to play one more year but was cut mid way through the season when he shot 28% from the field and .404 TS%. He was DONE long before he got to Miami. And teams just put him in the PnR and there was nothing Wade or LeBron could do. Anthony was barely an NBA player. It wasn't until the next year that they added Battier that their team filled out and they became the team we all thought they were going to be. They just couldn't bring in any glue guys. They didn't have role players, they had bums.

This isn't to forgive LeBron his tentative play in the Finals. But he hadn't worked on his post game and without ANY shooters around him (Wade shot .304 in the Finals and .306 for the season; Bosh hadn't extended his range yet and shot .240 during the season and didn't hit a single one in the Finals, and Mike Miller, who was supposed to be that guy, missed most of the season) there was just no spacing.

That first Heat team just wasn't a team. It was three good players and whatever leftovers they could wrangle. More than half the minutes played for that team were played by min salary players. And not the DWest/Zaza kind; the wouldn't be in the league if it weren't for Miami type. The only two players making more than the league min (outside of the big 3) were UD and MMiller and both were out for the bulk of the season with injuries.

[Louie_Ruckuz]

Lebron is an all time great but lets be real, Jeffrey is the GOAT and is 6 for 6 in the finals. Didn't ring chase or join another team to do it, legend!

[Louie_Ruckuz]

Lebron is an all time great but lets be real, Jeffrey is the GOAT and is 6 for 6 in the finals. Didn't ring chase or join another team to do it, legend!

[RunSunRun]

Sorry, but you can't call someone the GOAT when they do stuff like this regularly...it's embarrassing.

Watch on YouTube

[MartinToVaught]

Oh please like LBJ doesn't also get favorable calls and gets the benefit of the doubt on defense so he rarely ever is in foul trouble?

Jordan got favorable calls and numerous rules changes to help him win. The NBA even went as far as changing the dimensions of the court for a few years to artificially inflate Jordan's career 3PT%. On top of all that, Jordan was on some of the most stacked teams ever assembled in the '90s and the league was watered down by multiple rounds of expansion. The idea that LeBron has somehow had it easier than Jordan is a myth fueled by the NBA's marketing machine and fans' nostalgia for the "good old days."

LBJ made the finals in an extremely weak eastern conference

This talking point has been blown so far out of proportion, it's not even funny. Yes, the bottom of the East has been a joke for a long time. Yes, the West has had more regular-season pretenders than the East for years now. But in the playoffs, LeBron still had to go through great teams like the "Goin' to Work" Pistons, the Big Three Celtics, SVG's Magic, and stacked Bulls and Pacers teams that would be remembered a lot differently if LeBron didn't exist. And after getting out of the East, LeBron has never once had the better roster in the Finals.

I've never understood why the "weak conference" talking point is only ever used against LeBron, BTW. The West during Magic's prime makes today's East look like today's West by comparison. There were times when the Showtime Lakers played an under .500 team in the Western Conference Finals. The Lakers barely even had to break a sweat until June. But nobody ever brings this up to discredit Magic.

while Jordan did not make the finals in his early years because he had to battle the bad boy Pistons and the Celitics who knocked him out of the playoffs until age started to catch up with them

LeBron didn't have to wait for other teams to get too old to compete before it was his turn. He single-handedly slammed the window shut on the 2000s Pistons and the Big Three Celtics at a time when both of those teams still could have won more rings. He beat one of the best Duncan Spurs teams ever. He beat an OKC team with a 23-year-old Durant, a 23-year-old Westbrook and a 22-year-old Harden that everyone was crowning as the next great dynasty. He did the same with a 73-win Warriors team starring a 27-year-old Curry, a 25-year-old Klay, and a 25-year-old Draymond.

The first three peat was also not exactly an easy road as the Knicks were a pretty physical team that played tough defense that simply could not be played today, look at the old youtube clips of the Knicks committing hard fouls that would be graded as flagrant fouls today.

You can thank Jordan himself for that. The league kept changing the rules throughout the '90s to discourage physical defense and make it easier on offensive players. They realized that the Jordan Bulls were a marketer's wet dream and went about making it easier by the year for them to keep winning.

Jordan also won a NCAA title so that should also count for something.

LeBron was so good in high school that he didn't even need to play in college. He went directly from high school to first overall in the draft. That should count for something too.

If we're going to start counting college championships, then Jordan loses the ring count argument to Kareem, who won three of those.

[primopastalove2]

He might not catch but he is better player than MJ


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[The4thHorseman]

Since you confirm that both Wade and James are both close friends, then it's not hard to imagine an agreement of LeBron taking a back seat so Wade can have one last hurrah and try to win another FMVP.
Does it not strike you odd that shortly after that Finals loss, Wade told the media "it's LeBron's team now" in which Miami proceeded to win B2B Championships with Wade taking the backseat and the luxury of taking games off during the reg. season??

No, it doesn't because I can document for you exactly what happened. The lockout-shortened 2012 season began in December with James and Wade once again in full co-alpha mode. Through two games, LeBron was averaging 26 and Wade 24. In the third game, Wade got hurt and then had to sit out nine games, during which time the Heat went 8 -1, and James/ Bosh were a devastating combo. After seeing this and in light of LBJ's ultimate failure at sharing the leadership mantle in 2011, Wade approached James and told him he would take the back seat (however, he was sort of lying as he proceeded to outplay James for the next two months-- during January and February, in terms of per 36, Wade averaged 28 ppg to James' 24 ppg; but, in March, Wade suffered sustained his first serious injury of the Heatles-era, which signified the beginning of the end of his prime).

After the 6th game of the season, Wade missed 3 games in a row, not 9 (the 2nd game against ATL James didn't play either) He cameback for a few games and Wade's 9th game of the season is when he injured his ankle and proceeded to miss 6 more games.

Using per 36 over a 2mo. stretch to prop Wade up and say he played better....

Wade was healthy for the month of March. He proceeded to miss 8 games throughout April due to B2B games and prob. rest. Not sure where you're getting your info from but what I do know for fact is that once Wade gave the team to James, the Heat ran off B2B titles while LeBron leading the Heat in points, rebounds and assists in the postseason for 2012,13,14.

Also, your theory about LBJ agreeing to defer in the 2011 Finals is a cute attempt to obscure the fact that LeBron scored 8 points in Game 4, which they lost by 3, with the Heat poised to take a 3 - 1 lead, which with HCA under the 2-3-2 format was insurmountable. It also ignores that Wade outplayed James in the second most important series of that playoffs against the Celtics (33 ppg vs. 27 ppg), outscored him in the playoffs outright (24 ppg vs. 23 ppg), was statistically on par with him during the season (27/7/7 vs. 26/6/5), had better numbers per 36 and was the leading scorer in more games that both played. Wade was in every way James' equal, if not better.

Greats have bad games, it's well documented. LeBron led the Heat in scoring for 2 games and had a triple-double in another. Plus led the entire 2011 postseason in W/S. You would have thought if LeBron played so poorly in those Finals, then he would have no shot at the W/S. He would have been overcome by Wade or Dirk etc......correct?

Against the Celtics (not sure where you came up 33ppg for Wade and 27ppg for James other than continue to change them on purpose for Wade's sake)
Wade - 30-7-5
James - 28-8-4

Everything was clicking fine for Miami until the Finals happened. Looked like a meeting had taken place before the Finals for the sake of Wade and their plan backfired.

the4thhorseman wrote
MJ shouldered the offense while Pippen shouldered the defense by guarding the best opposing offensive player. That's why MJ could stay fresher on offense. Younger non-injured better 2 way player Pippen > 2012-14 Wade. Young Grant banging for rebounds and posting up > 2012-14 Bosh

Defense does not equal offense. Neither does rebounding, and neither does passing or any other skill (although the ability to be a scorer/playmaker is admittedly fundamental to dominance-- hence why MJ's first Finals when he dropped 31/11 was one of his more impressive performances). Overall, there is no more valuable ability in basketball then for your team to put the ball in your hands and say win us the game/ series/ title. On that front, without hesitation, I'm taking both MJ and Wade over James.

It was great performance because after the 1st game and into game 2, MJ got into foul trouble and Pippen had to guard Magic. Needless to say that's when it was realized how great a defender Pipp was. When guarding Magic, he shut him don. He took some of the burden off MJ's shoulders and MJ was able to put more effort into offense.

Also, while MJ didn't hit every single game-determining shot on the biggest stage (for example, Phil drew up a play for a Paxson 3 that won the 1993 title against the Suns, and MJ drew and kicked to Kerr for the clincher in 1997 vs. the Jazz), he was never bailed out as LeBron definitely was by Ray Allen after he missed a game-tying three in Game 6 in 2013 and also arguably was by Kyrie last year.

Miami would have been in need of more than 3 if James hadn't hit a 3pt with 20 seconds left in the game which brought Miami within 2.

Kyrie bailout last year..... There was 56 seconds left when he hit that 3. James sealed it with a free throw which made it a 4pt game.

As far as comparing prime Pippen to 2012 - 2014 Wade, I suppose that's arguable. But, here's what I'll say: as recently as the 2016 playoffs last year, a healthy 34 year-old Wade was reprising his "hop-on-my-back" role in beating the Hornets and taking the Raptors to Game 7. Scottie couldn't do that. He wasn't that kind of player. (Scottie's stats in his best season without MJ are almost identical to his best season with MJ-- the proper comparison for him is the Grant Hill tier).

Chicago won 2 less games when MJ quit on the Bulls and was replaced in the starting line-up with a journeyman who started 81 games and avg. 8ppg. When LeBron left, he was replaced by a handful of nice players and Miami couldn't even make the playoffs.

The reason this matters is that even as it got to the point where Wade was constantly getting his knee-drained in the postseason, he was still able to provide "flashes" of his true self at critical times, such as Games 2 - 5 in the 2012 Finals when he averaged 25 ppg and Game 4 of the 2013 Spurs series, which he closed down after James subbed himself out, scoring 32 and putting the Heat up by 15 by the time LeBron reentered.

All it proves is that Wade wasn't healthy which made it harder and more impressive to overcome for LeBron and Miami.

MJ just never had that caliber of support.

Pippen was 6x All-NBA and 6x All-Defense playing with MJ
Rodman was the rebounding champion when he signed on with Chicago and continued to lead the league for the next 3yrs. He also was All-Defense in 1996.

Safe to say that LeBron has never had that multiple support for that many years.

An easy way to explain the difference is that Mike played with a true Robin. LeBron played with a Batman who was crammed into a Robin costume, a fact reinforced by the fact that as soon as LBJ left, Wade immediately changed back into his Batman suit. (The jury is out on whether Kyrie is a Batman; we haven't seen him in that role in his prime).

Wade played like a Batman with James for 1 season.

As soon as LBJ left, Miami replaced him with some good players and they couldn't make the playoffs that following season.

[infinite11285]

Lebron has too much ups and downs in the playoffs.

Proof? Link?

Have you seen LeBron's playoff averages? Are you thinking of another LeBron?

[cpower]

Lebron has too much ups and downs in the playoffs.

Proof? Link?

Have you seen LeBron's playoff averages? Are you thinking of another LeBron?

Have you seen Lebron's finals against Mavs and Spurs?

[madmaxmedia]

It would be easier to compare if they were more similar as players (even though they are both wing players.) Michael was more refined and skilled, whereas Lebron is more physically dominant. Michael is a leopard crossed with a cheetah, Lebron is a leopard crossed with a bull. They are both ~50% FG shooters for their career, another sign of each of their greatness.

I personally give the nod to Michael but feel it is very close- basically a toss up. I could try to come up with a bunch of arguments, but all they'd really be is an attempt to justify my emotional response to the question.

[infinite11285]

Lebron has too much ups and downs in the playoffs.

Proof? Link?

Have you seen LeBron's playoff averages? Are you thinking of another LeBron?

Have you seen Lebron's finals against Mavs and Spurs?

Career Playoff Avgs:
MP--PTS--RB--AST--STL--BLK--%TS
42--28--9--7--2--1--55%

Spurs Series (2007): -- Lost Series
MP--PTS--RB--AST--STL--BLK--%TS
43--22--7--7--1--0.5--43%

Mavs Series (2011): -- Lost Series
MP--PTS--RB--AST--STL--BLK--%TS
44--18--7--7--2--0.5--54%

Spurs Series (2013): -- Won Series
MP--PTS--RB--AST--STL--BLK--%TS
43--25--11--7--2--0.9--53%

Spurs Series (2014): -- Lost Series
MP--PTS--RB--AST--STL--BLK--%TS
38--28--8--4--2--0.4--68%

Given the above data, the ONLY outlier here is the 2011 series against the Mavs where he played below his averages (in scoring only). He's played well to his averages during each Spurs series, winning 1 out of 2; where 2 of those instances (2007 & 2014), the Spurs were clearly head and shoulders above the entire league. Outside of the Finals against the Mavs in 2011, he's been an absolute workhorse and the model of consistency in the postseason.

[rrosario35]

Sorry, but you can't call someone the GOAT when they do stuff like this regularly...it's embarrassing.

Watch on YouTube

Exactly...


This was such bull lol

[ropjhk]

I'm not one of those people who think that Lebron can never surpass Jordan's greatness, but I don't think he's there yet. Aside from the stats and the championships, MJ's career plays out like a storybook fantasy. Overcoming the old guard, dominating the league, early retirement and the adversity of losing his father and the comeback. Throw in the most memorable shots and moments in NBA history and in terms of storylines MJ's story is unmatched.

Lebron on the other hand has a much different story. Aside from the Pistons, he never beat the Celtics, Spurs or Lakers while with the Cavs. Runs away from his situation to form a superteam and underwhelms in terms of results. Redeems himself by returning home, and performs his greatest feat in defeating an all time great team. Lebron's last two seasons are what keeps this an argument, but he still has alot to overcome. He doesn't need to win 6 championships, but he needs more signature moments when comparing him with the guy whose career was near perfect. Win against GS this year and we have a really good argument.

[ropjhk]

Proof? Link?

Have you seen LeBron's playoff averages? Are you thinking of another LeBron?

Have you seen Lebron's finals against Mavs and Spurs?

Career Playoff Avgs:
MP--PTS--RB--AST--STL--BLK--%TS
42--28--9--7--2--1--55%

Spurs Series (2007): -- Lost Series
MP--PTS--RB--AST--STL--BLK--%TS
43--22--7--7--1--0.5--43%

Mavs Series (2011): -- Lost Series
MP--PTS--RB--AST--STL--BLK--%TS
44--18--7--7--2--0.5--54%

Spurs Series (2013): -- Won Series
MP--PTS--RB--AST--STL--BLK--%TS
43--25--11--7--2--0.9--53%

Spurs Series (2014): -- Lost Series
MP--PTS--RB--AST--STL--BLK--%TS
38--28--8--4--2--0.4--68%

Given the above data, the ONLY outlier here is the 2011 series against the Mavs where he played below his averages (in scoring only). He's played well to his averages during each Spurs series, winning 1 out of 2; where 2 of those instances (2007 & 2014), the Spurs were clearly head and shoulders above the entire league. Outside of the Finals against the Mavs in 2011, he's been an absolute workhorse and the model of consistency in the postseason.

How is 2011 the only outlier? He wasn't so good in 2007.

[jlokine]

didnt read through all the posts in the thread but here's my opinion...

lebron probably entered prime kobe or prime lebron debate, which is not prime kobe, prime jordan or prime lebron debate. i dont think there's a prime kobe or prime jordan debate. it's still jordan hands down.

there's something to be said for lebron being in the finals every year since 2011. but those losses (mavs, warriors) definitely hurts his goat potential. i've always said this. between lebron and kobe, i would count on lebron to have a clutch game (ie 40 points/triple double type performance), but last 2 minutes, i would still give the ball to kobe/jordan (clutch plays).

we can have a lebron/jordan goat talk when lebron gets 5 rings. if he gets 6, then he can be goat because of his regular appearance in the finals.

and he should go to adidas and start a King line to compete with jordan.

[Bobbalu]

You can't use numbers in a debate like this to make a definitive conclusion. The numbers can help build a case, but for people that watched both play, there is a gap. Jordan could do whatever he wanted to whoever, whenever he wanted. I really don't refer Michael as a basketball player. He was an artist, and the ball was his brush.

[madmaxmedia]

For all his high-flying dunks, Jordan never proved his greatness in a Finals Game 7, and took the easy way out in jumping to 3-1 leads in 4 of his 6 championships.

[JonFromVA]

Jordan failed to make the finals 9 times out of 15 seasons, LeBron 6 times out of 13.