Jay10 wrote:No one is going to know what he capable of doing as a coach until #7 is no longer on the roster.
We can win with Melo but Rose must go.
Moderators: dakomish23, Capn'O, j4remi, Deeeez Knicks, NoLayupRule, GONYK, mpharris36, HerSports85, Jeff Van Gully
Jay10 wrote:No one is going to know what he capable of doing as a coach until #7 is no longer on the roster.
GONYK wrote:malik959 wrote:I strongly feel that a lot of this can't be placed on Horny. He was placed in a position to fail. Forced to run an offense that he had no knowledge of and like most of his players he had to learn on the fly. Had no time to develope a defense because he was stuck trying to understand the triangle. Didnt have two of his starters to have a full training camp and also preseason and those players have missed significant games due to injuries.
Then in order to run the triangle successfully you have to have a pass first guard and for some reason Phill got Rose. Maybe he was planning on having a losing season so we could draft high?
Then comes Melo. This team is not built for now and should be built around KP for the future. But with Melo we're stuck in limbo because this team is poorly built, not able to win now and not properly built for the future. This draft is really going to bring us to a new'direction.
Was offense the problem this season?
moocow007 wrote:GONYK wrote:moocow007 wrote:
The Knicks offense wasn't terrible terrible but that's probably because they do have 3 guys that averages 18+ ppg based on pure talent. From an offensive efficiency standpoint they are ranked 17th. Folks may see that and say that that's not terrible but when you consider that they have 3 very skilled offensive players and is supposed to be offensive geared (meaning offense is what wins games for them) it is pretty bad. They are near the bottom in terms of assists and effective FG% which are good signs that the offensive as a collective is not a good one.
I don't disagree, but in terms of the reason our record is what it is, I don't think it is because we didn't have an offensive system.
Our offense might be inefficient and depend on individual scoring, but I can name you playoff teams who are worse than us.
Our defense is front and center as the biggest problem.
I think an analysis that leads to our record being what it is because because Jeff had to run the Triangle (which he did NOT do) is a very inaccurate one.
Their defense is definitely the bigger issue no question but I don't think we had much in the way of an offensive system. Like I said, our system was basically geared around 3 18+ppg scorers that can score on their own to carry the bulk of the offensive burden.
What Derrick Rose said about the Knicks offense (before Jackson started spending more time showing them the Triangle) being "random offense" IMO is a correct statement of the teams "offensive system".
If most folks get what they want (which is no more Rose and no more Anthony) then I think the offense will become just as big if not a bigger problem. So I don't want their defensive issues to mask what could very well be an equally big issue if/when Rose and Anthony go.
I absolute think folks are not giving enough credit to the offensive ability of the maligned duo. Folks that think that the few snippets of "good offensive flow" that they've seen when Anthony and/or Rose wasn't playing can actually translate into a "good offense" without them IMO is fooling themselves. At the end of the day, even top notch offensive systems need guys that can score and create on their own.
As far as Jeff having to run the Triangle, I'm honestly not sure what he's trying to run (and that's part of the problem). Whether it's because he's just not a very good head coach (with no real system) or because he's trying to compromise his system with another system. They aren't running what he ran in Phoenix. They aren't running what I would consider the Triangle.
I don't think there's been clear communication between him and Jackson on what Jeff should be doing (and that could be part of the problem). If there is and Jackson is insisting that Jeff run the Triangle then I can tell you that Jeff is not good at it cause they are just piss poor at understanding the concepts of it (and you can only blame Anthony and Rose so much since Porzingis appears just as lost if not more so).
moocow007 wrote:GONYK wrote:moocow007 wrote:
The Knicks offense wasn't terrible terrible but that's probably because they do have 3 guys that averages 18+ ppg based on pure talent. From an offensive efficiency standpoint they are ranked 17th. Folks may see that and say that that's not terrible but when you consider that they have 3 very skilled offensive players and is supposed to be offensive geared (meaning offense is what wins games for them) it is pretty bad. They are near the bottom in terms of assists and effective FG% which are good signs that the offensive as a collective is not a good one.
I don't disagree, but in terms of the reason our record is what it is, I don't think it is because we didn't have an offensive system.
Our offense might be inefficient and depend on individual scoring, but I can name you playoff teams who are worse than us.
Our defense is front and center as the biggest problem.
I think an analysis that leads to our record being what it is because because Jeff had to run the Triangle (which he did NOT do) is a very inaccurate one.
Their defense is definitely the bigger issue no question but I don't think we had much in the way of an offensive system. Like I said, our system was basically geared around 3 18+ppg scorers that can score on their own to carry the bulk of the offensive burden.
What Derrick Rose said about the Knicks offense (before Jackson started spending more time showing them the Triangle) being "random offense" IMO is a correct statement of the teams "offensive system".
If most folks get what they want (which is no more Rose and no more Anthony) then I think the offense will become just as big if not a bigger problem. So I don't want their defensive issues to mask what could very well be an equally big issue if/when Rose and Anthony go.
I absolute think folks are not giving enough credit to the offensive ability of the maligned duo. Folks that think that the few snippets of "good offensive flow" that they've seen when Anthony and/or Rose wasn't playing can actually translate into a "good offense" without them IMO is fooling themselves. At the end of the day, even top notch offensive systems need guys that can score and create on their own.
As far as Jeff having to run the Triangle, I'm honestly not sure what he's trying to run (and that's part of the problem). Whether it's because he's just not a very good head coach (with no real system) or because he's trying to compromise his system with another system. They aren't running what he ran in Phoenix. They aren't running what I would consider the Triangle.
I don't think there's been clear communication between him and Jackson on what Jeff should be doing (and that could be part of the problem). If there is and Jackson is insisting that Jeff run the Triangle then I can tell you that Jeff is not good at it cause they are just piss poor at understanding the concepts of it (and you can only blame Anthony and Rose so much since Porzingis appears just as lost if not more so).
Jimmit79 wrote:Yea RJ played well he was definitely the x factor
dakomish23 wrote:The answer from Knicks fans is always blaming the players and the coaches. Not the folks who create the roster or bring in the coaches.
Makes sense
I want to see who the scapegoat is after those guys are gone. I assume the next group of players or coaches.
Until this organization is run like a well run organization, you will not see a good product on the floor consistently. We had legit NBA management for a few years and it culminated in the best season we had in 15 years. Not a coincidence.
swisscheeseD wrote:Jeff Van Gully wrote:I agree with the no band-aid moves. but we need to define that. you have to field a team. there's a cap floor. that means sometimes you need to bring in a vet like courtney lee. if we're talking about a max vet who is not a key driver, then i'd look to avoid that too. but then, fans need to respect that we're on that kind of path.
My definition of "no band-aid" moves is signing anybody in the off-season that is more of a "win-now" player, to a multi-year contract and that could block or stunt the development of our youth. We are nowhere near a "win-now" team there isn't a single player in FA, Steph Curry included, that will turn this team into a Contender.
I'd much rather see this franchise use its available cap space to take on salary through dumps that have additional future considerations / young players attached for the troubles of taking on the salary.
You say that "sometimes you need to bring on a vet like Courtney Lee". I say, so do other teams around the league who are looking for players like him to put them over the top. Why pay CLee $13mil the next 3 seasons when we aren't winning dick over that time, can pay a guy like Holiday less(who replicates his skill set and like Lee, a journeymen who is now starting to come on to his own), all while acquiring another pick/young asset? I have zero issues with keeping Lee, but we need to get into "stocking assets mode" while our young guys develop. As a core starts to form, we'll have even more assets at our disposal to fill needs around them.
I just don't see why anyone would want to pay anyone anything this Free Agency. The idea of wooing a Jrue Holiday or for some reason George Hill, paying them $30mil/yr for 4yrs, when we can use our Top 8 to select one who is cost-controlled in a stacked PG draft, just makes me sick to my stomach.
We need to do what good organizations do for a change.
Greenie wrote:GONYK wrote:malik959 wrote:I strongly feel that a lot of this can't be placed on Horny. He was placed in a position to fail. Forced to run an offense that he had no knowledge of and like most of his players he had to learn on the fly. Had no time to develope a defense because he was stuck trying to understand the triangle. Didnt have two of his starters to have a full training camp and also preseason and those players have missed significant games due to injuries.
Then in order to run the triangle successfully you have to have a pass first guard and for some reason Phill got Rose. Maybe he was planning on having a losing season so we could draft high?
Then comes Melo. This team is not built for now and should be built around KP for the future. But with Melo we're stuck in limbo because this team is poorly built, not able to win now and not properly built for the future. This draft is really going to bring us to a new'direction.
Was offense the problem this season?
Yes.
All we really ran were P&R and Iso.
When Lance snd Kyle are in Iso sets I have a problem.
GONYK wrote:K P 6 wrote:I think its **ed up to force the triangle on him. We couldn't even let him coach. the young guys lay well for him. Get rid of Melo and Rose and see what he can do.
This myth needs to die.
Phil basically let him do whatever he wanted offensively up until the AS break. We ran the Triangle less than 6 times a game. Offense wasn't a problem before and it isn't a problem now that we've gone back to the Triangle.
The problem was always defense, and that remains a problem.
MP4LIFE wrote:dakomish23 wrote:The answer from Knicks fans is always blaming the players and the coaches. Not the folks who create the roster or bring in the coaches.
Makes sense
I want to see who the scapegoat is after those guys are gone. I assume the next group of players or coaches.
Until this organization is run like a well run organization, you will not see a good product on the floor consistently. We had legit NBA management for a few years and it culminated in the best season we had in 15 years. Not a coincidence.
Glen Grunwald wasn't legit NBA management.
We signed some veterans who led a team where Melo couldn't because he isn't a natural leader. Unfortunately we had a very mediocre coach and we flamed out in the playoffs.
Donnie Walsh was legit NBA management, a man who made the playoffs for nearly 30 seasons in Indiana. He did his best under the toxic environment but he, too, was sent packing in no time.
The cancer of the franchise is James Dolan. The man is the single worst thing to ever happen to the New York Knicks.
Jimmit79 wrote:Yea RJ played well he was definitely the x factor