WCQF | (3) Houston Rockets vs Oklahoma City Thunder (6) | HOU 2-1

[donnieme]

Harden is better with talent. Sometime in the first half I wondered why he wasn't shooting more when Ryan Anderson was stinking it up and it looked like OKC could run away with it. Harden stayed calm and exploded at the right time. Just because your teammates miss shots doesn't mean you should start shooting every other possession. But damn doesn't mean the Thunder don't suck

I can't say Harden is "better with talent" until he matches Westbrook's playoff resume. When Westbrook had Durant, they made finals and 3 WCF. Harden needs to prove himself beyond the 1st round.

Don't forget that Harden was on the OKC finals team and it was actually Durant and Harden that carried the team past SAS in the conference finals and Westbrook did get fairly outplayed by Tony Parker in that series.

That post is actually sig worthy. He doesn't even know that finals team had Harden on it.

[CnG]

You sound like the people who claim Trump is a brilliant business man. All that money, he must be!

That makes no sense and is irrelevant but I'll take an Oklahoman's word when it's regarding Trump

I'll connect the dots for you -
Trump is a billionaire - people use this to validate his business sense, ignoring inherited funds and breaks
Durant is a superstar - you are using this to validate his competitive drive, ignoring inherited physical advantages

Durant is a great shooter, but so is Anthony Morrow, and even he is 6'5 (which is still a genetic lottery of smaller proportion). Lots of guys can shoot and handle the ball, not all of them are 6'11 freak athletes with long arms.

And yes, Oklahomans support Trump. Good one.

Lol this is such an awful back and forth, I apologise for the seconds of people's lives they've had to use to scroll past.

I can go back to praising Donald's business acumen (apparently), and you can go back to questioning the competitive drive of athletes and blaming genetics for life's failures.

We're both losers here, bud.

[Patches Perry]

Harden is better with talent. Sometime in the first half I wondered why he wasn't shooting more when Ryan Anderson was stinking it up and it looked like OKC could run away with it. Harden stayed calm and exploded at the right time. Just because your teammates miss shots doesn't mean you should start shooting every other possession. But damn doesn't mean the Thunder don't suck

I can't say Harden is "better with talent" until he matches Westbrook's playoff resume. When Westbrook had Durant, they made finals and 3 WCF. Harden needs to prove himself beyond the 1st round.

Don't forget that Harden was on the OKC finals team and it was actually Durant and Harden that carried the team past SAS in the conference finals and Westbrook did get fairly outplayed by Tony Parker in that series.

Harden averaged 15ppg in those 4 wins. It was a big series for him at the time, which kind of shows you what his role was on that team.

[G35]

You know one thing I don't get is that people care so much about on/off and all that, but why can't a superstar be on the court and not dominate the ball? Why can't a superstar enable his teammates while on the court and conserve his energy by sharing the load. If you know that your teammates don't do very well while you are not on the floor, then WB might have to stay on the floor more, but it seems like WB can only be effective if he is going full speed.

That to me is WB's strength and weakness, he only has one speed. It works a lot of the time but a) it wears his motor down and b)it is not conducive to a team's offense. If WB gets down the court before everyone else and he is on a 1 vs 2 or 1 vs 3 break he almost commits himself to taking a shot before any real other options are explored......

[Thundershock88]

I can't say Harden is "better with talent" until he matches Westbrook's playoff resume. When Westbrook had Durant, they made finals and 3 WCF. Harden needs to prove himself beyond the 1st round.

Don't forget that Harden was on the OKC finals team and it was actually Durant and Harden that carried the team past SAS in the conference finals and Westbrook did get fairly outplayed by Tony Parker in that series.

Harden averaged 15ppg in those 4 wins. It was a big series for him at the time, which kind of shows you what his role was on that team.

Let's also not forget that he was a no show in the Finals. He was out partying in Miami, and he was worrying about his then girlfriend cheating with Lil Wayne. Meanwhile, Russ and KD played their hearts out.

[donnieme]

I can't say Harden is "better with talent" until he matches Westbrook's playoff resume. When Westbrook had Durant, they made finals and 3 WCF. Harden needs to prove himself beyond the 1st round.

Don't forget that Harden was on the OKC finals team and it was actually Durant and Harden that carried the team past SAS in the conference finals and Westbrook did get fairly outplayed by Tony Parker in that series.

Harden averaged 15ppg in those 4 wins. It was a big series for him at the time, which kind of shows you what his role was on that team.

We know what his role was because we actually watched NBA back then. To try and diminish it with select stats is digging this hole deeper. There was this massive thread discussing how big a star he already was. We just didn't know he was MVP big

[Patches Perry]

That makes no sense and is irrelevant but I'll take an Oklahoman's word when it's regarding Trump

I'll connect the dots for you -
Trump is a billionaire - people use this to validate his business sense, ignoring inherited funds and breaks
Durant is a superstar - you are using this to validate his competitive drive, ignoring inherited physical advantages

Durant is a great shooter, but so is Anthony Morrow, and even he is 6'5 (which is still a genetic lottery of smaller proportion). Lots of guys can shoot and handle the ball, not all of them are 6'11 freak athletes with long arms.

And yes, Oklahomans support Trump. Good one.

Lol this is such an awful back and forth, I apologise for the seconds of people's lives they've had to use to scroll past.

I can go back to praising Donald's business acumen (apparently), and you can go back to questioning the competitive drive of athletes and blaming genetics for life's failures.

We're both losers here, bud.

This is a message board specifically for talking people we don't know playing a game where they put a ball in a ring. Every "back and forth" we have on here is pointless. Pointing that out after failing to understand how physical advantages play a part in the success of athletes seems like a cop-out to me. Happy to call it quits though.

[K_chile22]

Both the bench AND Westbrook can receive blame. This isn't binary.

[red96]

Wow! Espn is at it again. They're blaming the loss on the Rockets mini comeback on the few minutes Westbrook sat at the end of the 3rd. Complete BS. The Thunder's lead varied between 3-12 points, from the end of the 1st all the way to the 3rd before Westbrook sat down. Their lead just went back down to 3 again while Westbrook was sitting. The Thunder got the lead back up to 8(the type of lead they had all game long) at 11:31 in the 4th, so you can't blame the loss on that brief moment in the 3rd. No Espn, the Thunder lost their lead and the game with Westbrook playing.

[G35]

Both the bench AND Westbrook can receive blame. This isn't binary.

I agree.....

[Patches Perry]

Don't forget that Harden was on the OKC finals team and it was actually Durant and Harden that carried the team past SAS in the conference finals and Westbrook did get fairly outplayed by Tony Parker in that series.

Harden averaged 15ppg in those 4 wins. It was a big series for him at the time, which kind of shows you what his role was on that team.

We know what his role was because we actually watched NBA back then. To try and diminish it with select stats is digging this hole deeper. There was this massive thread discussing how big a star he already was. We just didn't know he was MVP big

He was clearly good, and clearly too big for his role, but he wasn't "carrying" the Thunder by any stretch. He was a complimentary player. He didn't start, wasn't even an all-star, etc.

[MartinToVaught]

Waiters' past TS% is not the issue

If it's not the issue, then why harp on his 1% increase over last year? Does his past TS% only count if it fits into an anti-Westbrook agenda?

since what I'm trying to prove is Westbrook is making his teammates go cold during the game by not involving them enough and taking them out of the flow of the game

You haven't proved that, though. You've pointed to Durant - a historically efficient player who had a 50-40-90 season with Westbrook - and two players (Oladipo and Waiters) who hardly distinguished themselves as efficient scorers before they played with Westbrook as "proof" that Westbrook makes everyone worse at shooting.

And you still don't have an explanation for why all of Adams, Taj, Oladipo, McDermott and Kanter's TS% went down despite taking fewer shots if Westbrook was so great at making his teammates better.

Adams took 8.2 shots per game this season, his career high by a country mile. So your claim that he's "taking fewer shots" this year is just factually incorrect. His 58% TS% was a step back from last year's 62%, but still much better than his first two seasons in the league (54% in both seasons).

Gibson's 7.8 shots per game and 52% TS% with the Thunder this season are both directly in line with his career averages. It's hard to claim that Westbrook has been bad for his game when he's playing at his normal level. Keep in mind also that Gibson wasn't even on the Thunder until after the trade deadline. He hasn't had a full season to build chemistry yet.

Oladipo took more shots per game this season (13.9) than he did last season (13.5). So there's another player who isn't shooting less often with Westbrook running the show. His 53% TS% is exactly the same as last year's.

McDermott, like Taj, joined the Thunder during the season. He's only taking one fewer shot per game than his career average, and his 55% TS% is the exact same as his career TS% and the TS% he had with the Bulls this season.

Kanter is taking more shots per game this year (10.2) than he did last year (8.8). His 60% TS% is a step back from last year but still better than his 57% career TS%.

You have yet to name a single Thunder player that has both taken less shots this year and shot significantly worse.

[Thundershock88]

Wow! Espn is at it again. They're blaming the loss on the Rockets mini comeback on the few minutes Westbrook sat at the end of the 3rd. Complete BS. The Thunder's lead varied between 3-12 points, from the end of the 1st all the way to the 3rd before Westbrook sat down. Their lead just went back down to 3 again while Westbrook was sitting. The Thunder got the lead back up to 8(the type of lead they had all game long) at 11:31 in the 4th, so you can't blame the loss on that brief moment in the 3rd. No Espn, the Thunder lost their lead and the game with Westbrook playing.

It definitely swung the momentum. You're kidding yourself if you think it didnt. Going into the 4th down 12 is alot different than going in down 3. Harden also got into a rhythm.

[Patches Perry]

Waiters' past TS% is not the issue

If it's not the issue, then why harp on his 1% increase over last year? Does his past TS% only count if it fits into an anti-Westbrook agenda?

since what I'm trying to prove is Westbrook is making his teammates go cold during the game by not involving them enough and taking them out of the flow of the game

You haven't proved that, though. You've pointed to Durant - a historically efficient player who had a 50-40-90 season with Westbrook - and two players (Oladipo and Waiters) who hardly distinguished themselves as efficient scorers before they played with Westbrook as "proof" that Westbrook makes everyone worse at shooting.

And you still don't have an explanation for why all of Adams, Taj, Oladipo, McDermott and Kanter's TS% went down despite taking fewer shots if Westbrook was so great at making his teammates better.

Adams took 8.2 shots per game this season, his career high by a country mile. So your claim that he's "taking fewer shots" this year is just factually incorrect. His 58% TS% was a step back from last year's 62%, but still much better than his first two seasons in the league (54% in both seasons).

Gibson's 7.8 shots per game and 52% TS% with the Thunder this season are both directly in line with his career averages. It's hard to claim that Westbrook has been bad for his game when he's playing at his normal level. Keep in mind also that Gibson wasn't even on the Thunder until after the trade deadline. He hasn't had a full season to build chemistry yet.

Oladipo took more shots per game this season (13.9) than he did last season (13.5). So there's another player who isn't shooting less often with Westbrook running the show. His 53% TS% is exactly the same as last year's.

McDermott, like Taj, joined the Thunder during the season. He's only taking one fewer shot per game than his career average, and his 55% TS% is the exact same as his career TS% and the TS% he had with the Bulls this season.

Kanter is taking more shots per game this year (10.2) than he did last year (8.8). His 60% TS% is a step back from last year but still better than his 57% career TS%.

You have yet to name a single Thunder player that has both taken less shots this year and shot significantly worse.

Spacing is also a huge issue for OKC, and it shows with the big guys efficiency. Adams and Kanter are so easy to collapse on because they don't have the guns outside to keep defenders from packing the paint. Even with Durant, they needed some shooting, but without him defenses can basically play zone.

[red96]

Both the bench AND Westbrook can receive blame. This isn't binary.

+1 But the Rockets bench beating OKC's bench is to be expected. The Rockets 2nd and 3rd best scorer's are in that unit. But Westbrook's play in the 4th, not so much.

[RightToCensor]

Shout out to James Harden for showing effort on defense for the past two games. Harden going from average to minimal is a huge difference based off the eye test.

[donnieme]

Harden averaged 15ppg in those 4 wins. It was a big series for him at the time, which kind of shows you what his role was on that team.

We know what his role was because we actually watched NBA back then. To try and diminish it with select stats is digging this hole deeper. There was this massive thread discussing how big a star he already was. We just didn't know he was MVP big

He was clearly good, and clearly too big for his role, but he wasn't "carrying" the Thunder by any stretch. He was a complimentary player. He didn't start, wasn't even an all-star, etc.

He wasn't even too big for his role. He fit and complimented the others well. No one in 2012 ever thought fit was an issue with the team. But yes he didn't carry them and neither did Westbrook. Westbrook was also better at the time. The OKC FO seemed low on him after the finals and thought they could move forward with Durant+Westbrook. I guess Steven Adams is the 'upgrade' in fit that made that trade worth it

[Tritodian]

Waiters' past TS% is not the issue

If it's not the issue, then why harp on his 1% increase over last year? Does his past TS% only count if it fits into an anti-Westbrook agenda?

since what I'm trying to prove is Westbrook is making his teammates go cold during the game by not involving them enough and taking them out of the flow of the game

You haven't proved that, though. You've pointed to Durant - a historically efficient player who had a 50-40-90 season with Westbrook - and two players (Oladipo and Waiters) who hardly distinguished themselves as efficient scorers before they played with Westbrook as "proof" that Westbrook makes everyone worse at shooting.

And you still don't have an explanation for why all of Adams, Taj, Oladipo, McDermott and Kanter's TS% went down despite taking fewer shots if Westbrook was so great at making his teammates better.

Adams took 8.2 shots per game this season, his career high by a country mile. So your claim that he's "taking fewer shots" this year is just factually incorrect. His 58% TS% was a step back from last year's 62%, but still much better than his first two seasons in the league (54% in both seasons).

Gibson's 7.8 shots per game and 52% TS% with the Thunder this season are both directly in line with his career averages. It's hard to claim that Westbrook has been bad for his game when he's playing at his normal level. Keep in mind also that Gibson wasn't even on the Thunder until after the trade deadline. He hasn't had a full season to build chemistry yet.

Oladipo took more shots per game this season (13.9) than he did last season (13.5). So there's another player who isn't shooting less often with Westbrook running the show. His 53% TS% is exactly the same as last year's.

McDermott, like Taj, joined the Thunder during the season. He's only taking one fewer shot per game than his career average, and his 55% TS% is the exact same as his career TS% and the TS% he had with the Bulls this season.

Kanter is taking more shots per game this year (10.2) than he did last year (8.8). His 60% TS% is a step back from last year but still better than his 57% career TS%.

You have yet to name a single Thunder player that has both taken less shots this year and shot significantly worse.

Because Westbrook just broke all time high in USG%, and his selfish ball-hogging has hit a new high this year, so any reference with regard to the past is moot. Whatever Westbrook has done in the past, it's not even close in terms of the degree to which he is icing out his teammates currently. That's why it's irrelevant.

Also, why would you use career averages which includes their rookie and sophomore years as a point of comparison? That was a dirty move, but nice try tho. The fact is, most of those players were on an upward career trajectory in terms of scoring volume and efficiency, and then they all plateaued or fell off since joining this version of Westbrook. Explain that.

[Patches Perry]

We know what his role was because we actually watched NBA back then. To try and diminish it with select stats is digging this hole deeper. There was this massive thread discussing how big a star he already was. We just didn't know he was MVP big

He was clearly good, and clearly too big for his role, but he wasn't "carrying" the Thunder by any stretch. He was a complimentary player. He didn't start, wasn't even an all-star, etc.

He wasn't even too big for his role. He fit and complimented the others well. No one in 2012 ever thought fit was an issue with the team. But yes he didn't carry them and neither did Westbrook. Westbrook was also better at the time. The OKC FO seemed low on him after the finals and thought they could move forward with Durant+Westbrook. I guess Steven Adams is the 'upgrade' in fit that made that trade worth it

Harden would have never become the player he is now playing behind Westbrook and Durant. He was clearly too big for his 6th man role. Don't be foolish. I made a thread earlier this year asking whether Westbrook and Harden could have co-existed together, and the overwhelming response was absolutely not. OKC didn't handle the Harden situation well, but they also had their best season in franchise history the season after he left, and were 1st tier contenders every healthy season, so the trade isn't nearly as heartbreaking as Durant's departure.

[og15]

I can't say Harden is "better with talent" until he matches Westbrook's playoff resume. When Westbrook had Durant, they made finals and 3 WCF. Harden needs to prove himself beyond the 1st round.

Don't forget that Harden was on the OKC finals team and it was actually Durant and Harden that carried the team past SAS in the conference finals and Westbrook did get fairly outplayed by Tony Parker in that series.

Harden averaged 15ppg in those 4 wins. It was a big series for him at the time, which kind of shows you what his role was on that team.

Yup, 16/5/4/60.9% TS/120 Ortg. My point is that I don't understand the logic in crediting Westbrook for going to the finals while not crediting Harden.

Westbrook averaged 16/6/8/44.5% TS/93 Ortg in those wins.

Harden sucked in that finals, sure. Westbrook also struggled shooting wise, though he was better and had a huge game or two. Harden was inconsequential vs the Lakers, but put up superior numbers to Westbrook vs Dallas. They don't get to the finals without Harden (or Westbrook), and we were comparing him to Ginobili back then in terms of impact off the bench.

I guess I just didn't understand the significance of the comparison of Wesbrooks playoff successes, but then crediting the finals appearance for Westbrook and not Harden.

Before the finals:

Westbrook:
37 mpg, 22/5/6, 50.8 TS%, 107 Ortg

Harden:
31 mpg, 18/5/3, 62.6 TS%, 121 Ortg

Can we really say either contribution wasn't significant?