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Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST

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Re: Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST 

Post#181 » by Skin Blues » Tue Oct 4, 2016 4:25 pm

tecumseh18 wrote:Stoeten today makes the point that Stro's problems this season start AFTER two times through the order. Before that, his ERA is ~3.00.

The same is true for practically every pitcher.

Schad wrote:Eno Sarris on Fangraphs is also pretty dubious that the Orioles splits are that meaningful, in part because (as mentioned previous) they aren't actually lefty-heavy...a large part of it is that their right-handed hitters, like Trumbo, have featured atypical results against LHP this season compared to their career norms.

A full season is such a big sample, and the gap between wRC+ vs RHP and LHP is so large, that the gap in performance is almost certainly meaningful. Maybe you regress it a bit, but not nearly enough to remove the difference. To me, their RHB being so poor against LHP says that their LHB's simply aren't as good as most LHB's at hitting opposite handed pitching. That doesn't mean a reverse platoon split (which is non-existent in the long-term for every player other than Ichiro), it just means a smaller than normal platoon split.

Considering we know Stroman is starting, that likely means he is the one to get the most innings assuming things don't go off the rails. But I'm hoping that they have a very, very short leash on him and don't wait for things to unravel before going to Liriano. After he goes through the lineup twice, even if he's been fantastic, shake his hand and thank him for his service. Give the ball to Liriano to go through the lineup for two times of his own. That gets us to our high leverage relievers. I see no reason at all to let Stroman face Adam Jones 3 times. Hell, maybe you sneak Biagini in there for an inning in-between Stroman and Liriano and let him face Jones/Machado/Trumbo. It's time to be creative, we have 10 pitchers to use followed by an off-day.
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Re: Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST 

Post#182 » by Schad » Tue Oct 4, 2016 4:45 pm

Skin Blues wrote:A full season is such a big sample, and the gap between wRC+ vs RHP and LHP is so large, that the gap in performance is almost certainly meaningful. Maybe you regress it a bit, but not nearly enough to remove the difference. To me, their RHB being so poor against LHP says that their LHB's simply aren't as good as most LHB's at hitting opposite handed pitching. That doesn't mean a reverse platoon split (which is non-existent in the long-term for every player other than Ichiro), it just means a smaller than normal platoon split.


A lot of it owes to a couple RHBs having truly unusual splits. Trumbo has a small conventional split for his career; this year he's hitting .173/.223/.385 against lefties, over 300 points of OPS below his mark against righties. Adam Jones had a small reverse split for his career entering 2016; this year, he turns into Ryan Goins against lefties. Those two account for 21% of their plate appearances against LHPs.

Like you said, big reverse platoon splits generally even out over time, so I'm pretty dubious that Trumbo/Jones have simply forgotten how to hit left-handed pitching.
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Re: Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST 

Post#183 » by Skin Blues » Tue Oct 4, 2016 5:00 pm

Schad wrote:A lot of it owes to a couple RHBs having truly unusual splits. Trumbo has a small conventional split for his career; this year he's hitting .173/.223/.385 against lefties, over 300 points of OPS below his mark against righties. Adam Jones had a small reverse split for his career entering 2016; this year, he turns into Ryan Goins against lefties. Those two account for 21% of their plate appearances against LHPs.

Like you said, big reverse platoon splits generally even out over time, so I'm pretty dubious that Trumbo/Jones have simply forgotten how to hit left-handed pitching.

I'm not a fan of discounting a huge sample size (1500+ PA for the Orioles vs LHP) in favour of a small sample size (Trumbo's 166 PA vs LHP). Regardless how much you regress Trumbo or Jones, the Orioles are still much worse vs LHP. Rarely do you improve a projection by looking at smaller sample sizes. I suppose there could be a reason one team does so poorly vs LHP such as they faced Kershaw and Bumgarner a dozen times which skewed the results. But obviously that makes more sense for an NL West team. Who in the AL could skew the data so much? Sale/Quintana/Rodon are Central pitchers... I just don't see any case for them facing unusually dominant LHPs. The whole team just kinda sucked all year against them.
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Re: Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST 

Post#184 » by tecumseh18 » Tue Oct 4, 2016 5:03 pm

Skin Blues wrote:
tecumseh18 wrote:Stoeten today makes the point that Stro's problems this season start AFTER two times through the order. Before that, his ERA is ~3.00.

The same is true for practically every pitcher.


Yes, but then Stro's ERA balloons to nearly 7.00 for the third or fourth time through. That split seems more extreme than usual.

Skin Blues wrote:Considering we know Stroman is starting, that likely means he is the one to get the most innings assuming things don't go off the rails. But I'm hoping that they have a very, very short leash on him and don't wait for things to unravel before going to Liriano. After he goes through the lineup twice, even if he's been fantastic, shake his hand and thank him for his service. Give the ball to Liriano to go through the lineup for two times of his own. That gets us to our high leverage relievers. I see no reason at all to let Stroman face Adam Jones 3 times. Hell, maybe you sneak Biagini in there for an inning in-between Stroman and Liriano and let him face Jones/Machado/Trumbo. It's time to be creative, we have 10 pitchers to use followed by an off-day.


I think Gibby wants this to play out exactly the way Dickey's start went against the Rangers last year (and so do I, especially with the huge lead). He took a lot of heat for taking Dickey out in favour of Price, but whatever. Now, that wasn't a deciding game - unless we lost - but he had already decided on Stroman for Game 5 so the effect was the same.
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Re: Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST 

Post#185 » by Schad » Tue Oct 4, 2016 5:15 pm

Skin Blues wrote:I'm not a fan of discounting a huge sample size (1500+ PA for the Orioles vs LHP) in favour of a small sample size (Trumbo's 166 PA vs LHP). Regardless how much you regress Trumbo or Jones, the Orioles are still much worse vs LHP. Rarely do you improve a projection by looking at smaller sample sizes. I suppose there could be a reason one team does so poorly vs LHP such as they faced Kershaw and Bumgarner a dozen times which skewed the results. But obviously that makes more sense for an NL West team. Who in the AL could skew the data so much? Sale/Quintana/Rodon are Central pitchers... I just don't see any case for them facing unusually dominant LHPs. The whole team just kinda sucked all year against them.


Trumbo and Jones' small sample sizes have a pretty significant effect on the big sample size: remove Trumbo and Jones, and the team's OPS against lefties jumps by 27 points. Normalize Trumbo/Jones' numbers to their career stats against LHP and it jumps even more; normalize Trumbo/Jones' numbers to their seasonal stats and it's even greater. There'd still be a platoon split, but not the sort that anyone would deem earth-shattering.

Righties being inexplicably bad against lefties is pretty much to sole reason the stat exists. Their LHB v LHP wRC+ is 11th-best in the majors. Their RHB v LHP wRC+ is 28th. Their lefties actually hit better against lefties this year than their righties. That's incredibly strange.
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Re: Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST 

Post#186 » by Skin Blues » Tue Oct 4, 2016 5:30 pm

tecumseh18 wrote:He took a lot of heat for taking Dickey out in favour of Price

I don't think it's being pedantic to clarify that Gibby took a lot of heat for burning our undisputed ace starting pitcher as a mop-up reliever in a game that we were leading by 6 runs, and not for removing Dickey too early. But I don't think we want to get into that again. I'd love for Gibby to try something unorthodox as long as it also happens to be a smart decision. Going by emotion or loyalty can lead to disastrous results, such as last year with the Mets sticking with Matt Harvey for way too long. I honestly don't think Gibby has the discipline to remove Stroman from a game that he is mowing down the competition through 4 or 5 innings once the lineup turns over for the third time. But I can see Shapiro/Atkins meddling with his decisions more than AA so maybe they've given their input on that front.
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Re: Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST 

Post#187 » by Throwback24 » Tue Oct 4, 2016 5:49 pm

Tbh I feel like this is a guaranteed win. Prepare the Rangers vs. Jays rematch thread
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Re: Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST 

Post#188 » by BramptonYute » Tue Oct 4, 2016 5:51 pm

my body is ready
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Re: Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST 

Post#189 » by Dr Octagon » Tue Oct 4, 2016 5:54 pm

Biggest game in franchise history.
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Re: Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST 

Post#190 » by Duffman100 » Tue Oct 4, 2016 5:58 pm

Dr Octagon wrote:Biggest game in franchise history.


Not sure if that's true...
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Re: Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST 

Post#191 » by Jays4WS » Tue Oct 4, 2016 6:12 pm

Here.. We.. Go!

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Re: Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST 

Post#192 » by suntzuballin » Tue Oct 4, 2016 6:29 pm

listen to the old bluejays coke a cola ad bout 50 times..IM READY
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Re: Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST 

Post#193 » by The_Hater » Tue Oct 4, 2016 6:33 pm

Duffman100 wrote:
Dr Octagon wrote:Biggest game in franchise history.


Not sure if that's true...


I don't even think it's in the top 10.
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April 14th, 2019.
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Re: Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST 

Post#194 » by Skin Blues » Tue Oct 4, 2016 7:28 pm

For those interested, Dan Szymborski has an article up on ESPN with "projected splits, with the regression included" that show Liriano heavily favoured over Stroman. I don't have Insider (maybe somebody wants to help with the full article text) but I trust statistics and math over the intuition that Eno has used (particularly since that intuition itself is almost entirely based on less-precise math). I personally think a lot of this is "Stroman is the face of the franchise and he won Game 5 last year, so let's give him a shot", to which I obviously don't agree with. Either way, I can't wait to watch.
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Re: Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST 

Post#195 » by ant171717 » Tue Oct 4, 2016 7:32 pm

anyone seen/at the birds nest? hows the crowd currently?
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Re: Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST 

Post#196 » by tecumseh18 » Tue Oct 4, 2016 7:39 pm

Skin Blues wrote:
tecumseh18 wrote:He took a lot of heat for taking Dickey out in favour of Price


I don't think it's being pedantic to clarify that Gibby took a lot of heat for burning our undisputed ace starting pitcher as a mop-up reliever in a game that we were leading by 6 runs, and not for removing Dickey too early. But I don't think we want to get into that again. I'd love for Gibby to try something unorthodox as long as it also happens to be a smart decision. Going by emotion or loyalty can lead to disastrous results, such as last year with the Mets sticking with Matt Harvey for way too long. I honestly don't think Gibby has the discipline to remove Stroman from a game that he is mowing down the competition through 4 or 5 innings once the lineup turns over for the third time. But I can see Shapiro/Atkins meddling with his decisions more than AA so maybe they've given their input on that front.


This issue was thoroughly canvassed at the time on this board and everywhere else in Jaysland, and isn't worth revisiting, and I was livid when the switch happened in the game. But ...

1. Price was not our undisputed ace (in many people's minds).

2. Even Price was, he was also our ONLY left-hander available. Just as we're talking about for this WC game, it's handy to have the ability to force the other team to make adjustments to hit an opposite-armed pitcher. In a one-game playoff, or when facing elimination as Jays were last year, it's actually imperative that a manager do that.

3. Dickey is what you call a "high-variable" pitcher with a "high variable" pitch. If the knuckleball stopped working, then balls start going over the fence and crooked numbers start going up on the scoreboard.

4. Wasn't it earlier that day in the NL that a team came back from way down to win? Gibby pointed it out at the time.

There, consider the dead horse re-beaten.
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Re: Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST 

Post#197 » by 0 - 100 » Tue Oct 4, 2016 7:43 pm

Im heading down for it at 6 should be a good one.

I just hope we start off well
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Re: Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST 

Post#198 » by 0 - 100 » Tue Oct 4, 2016 7:44 pm

Dr Octagon wrote:Biggest game in franchise history.


:crazy:
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Re: Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST 

Post#199 » by OvOh » Tue Oct 4, 2016 7:46 pm

Jays4WS wrote:Here.. We.. Go!

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Did Colabello provide this bird with some juice?
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Re: Wild Card Game: Baltimore (Tillman) @ Toronto (Stroman) | Tuesday, October 4 | 8PM EST 

Post#200 » by Skin Blues » Tue Oct 4, 2016 7:49 pm

tecumseh18 wrote:This issue was thoroughly canvassed at the time on this board and everywhere else in Jaysland, and isn't worth revisiting, and I was livid when the switch happened in the game. But ...

1. Price was not our undisputed ace (in many people's minds).

2. Even Price was, he was also our ONLY left-hander available. Just as we're talking about for this WC game, it's handy to have the ability to force the other team to make adjustments to hit an opposite-armed pitcher. In a one-game playoff, or when facing elimination as Jays were last year, it's actually imperative that a manager do that.

3. Dickey is what you call a "high-variable" pitcher with a "high variable" pitch. If the knuckleball stopped working, then balls start going over the fence and crooked numbers start going up on the scoreboard.

4. Wasn't it earlier that day in the NL that a team came back from way down to win? Gibby pointed it out at the time.

There, consider the dead horse re-beaten.

I disagree, with either the relevance or the truth, of all four of those statements. But yes... that dead horse has been beaten enough so I won't go into detail. I'll just say that Gibby is lucky we won Game 5 or he would be sitting on a porch in San Antonio right now.

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