Artis Gilmore

[70sFan]

I'm fascinated with this guy (that afro )
When he was in ABA he looked crazy athletic for a guy of his size. great leaper and pretty mobile. He also showed many nice moves like turnaround jumper, skyhook and even I saw him once doing something like dreamshake on fastbeak
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e_wjcyVqCw[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1xqwh7PE4I[/youtube]
In NBA (mainly in SAS) he looked even stronger and more massive but not as fluid and mobile. I didn't see him shooting jumpers or running break. In defense he looks close to Shaq - immovable object. He also didn't show same leaping ability.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsNoZjdizU0[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf6ABWKQ65w[/youtube]
My questions are:
1. What year is his peak in NBA and ABA (and overall)?
2. How good was he in NBA?
3. How good was he in defense? Was he a top 10 defensive centers ever?
4. Would he be the best center today?
6. How good did he defended guys like Kareem, Lanier, Moses, Hakeem?
5. How good could he defend Shaq and was he strong enough to fight with him for position?
Sorry for english and thanks for answers

[70sFan]

Could anyone help me? Every opinion will be very valuable...

[CavaliersFTW]

Could anyone help me? Every opinion will be very valuable...

Was it you who suggested in another thread Nate Thurmond might be the third strongest center ever behind Wilt and Shaq?

If it wasn't you I apologize but regardless, I'll use it as my stepping stone for input into this thread. Artis Gilmore is one of the strongest players in league history. Not Nate Thurmond. Artis Gilmore was the Wilt Chamberlain of the ABA in the early 70's, and of the NBA in the 1980's as far as physical strength is concerned. Though, many think Wilt was ultimately stronger than he was many say Gilmore carried that strength torch. For instance, Robert Parish played against young Shaquille O'Neal for 2 or 3 seasons, played Shaq when Shaq weighed as much as 330lbs (not the 340+ version but still) and he said that though Shaq was a more agile athlete than Gilmore (at least the old Gilmore Parish was accustomed to facing), he thought that Gilmore was the stronger player between the two.

A Nate Thurmond on the other hand though shredded, and certainly considered fairly strong, does not have any testimony like this about him, nobody marveled at his strength. Nate Thurmond topped out at about 240 maybe 245. Guys like Wes Unseld, Bob Lanier, who were all much heavier were probably as strong or stronger even if they didn't look as muscular at a glance. Gilmore, Shaq, and Wilt though. Those three guys are talked about by the players they played against the 3 strongest players that ever played. Those three guys have dozens of "strength stories" where players have come forward to testify of absolutely freakish strength. Wilt more so than the other two but still, it's those three at the top.

There's a few games of Gilmore in the early 1970's when he's still about 240-260. At that weight, he looks incredibly agile. And like you said he was very skilled. And left handed. I'd imagine Gilmore would be a load in any era. You combine his ABA resume with his NBA resume and he's top 50 caliber player in my opinion.

[70sFan]

Thanks for reply, I really respect your opinion. I'm not the one who thinks Nate is 3rd strongest player ever. I think he was strong, but I've never hear stories about his strengh like Gilmore's or Wilt's. In other thread I asked about his overall athletism.
Do you think ABA Artis was much different player than NBA Artis?

[penbeast0]

ABA Artis was much more active defensively, he came out more and challenged more. OFfensively, he was still developing that repetoire you talked about and mainly relied on his physicality. It was 1975 when Hubie Brown finally decided to make Artis the offensive hub and the Colonels won a championship (with Dan Issel having the worst season of his prime).

In the NBA, for whatever reason, Artis played closer to the basket on both ends. This had 2 effects. First, offensively, he set NBA records for efficiency with FG% up around 60. Defensively, he never seemed to have the same impact he had in the ABA. And, the mobility he had shown in the ABA disappeared, to the extent that he got nicknamed by someone "Rigor Artis."

The biggest knock on Artis, however, is that his personality was retiring and so (a) he rarely called for the ball or tried to take over the game and (b) he wasn't much of a team leader. But still a great player when you consider his combined years, probably just behind Patrick Ewing at around 8th to 10th on the all time center list.

[70sFan]

Thanks, so it looks like ABA Gilmore was better defender. So when he came to NBA he wasn't great defender anymore?

[BasketballFan7]

I found this online regarding Gilmore and KAJ. Impressive, although more context would help.

http://wagesofwins.com/2011/04/05/artis-gilmore-and-kareem-abdul-jabbar/

[Quotatious]

Thanks, so it looks like ABA Gilmore was better defender. So when he came to NBA he wasn't great defender anymore?

He was still great defensively in his first season in the NBA. Anchored the second best defense in the league, and generally made a huge impact on that Bulls team (they won just 24 games in 1975-76, improved to 44 wins in 1976-77 and made the playoffs, where Gilmore certainly held his own against peak Walton).

I have Gilmore in my top 35 all-time, and the 9th best center. His 5-year stretch as a defender in the ABA is one of the better defensive primes of all-time, he was a super efficient scorer capable of scoring 20+ points on a consistent basis, great rebounder, fantastic longevity. I don't think he was much worse than Ewing (they are very comparable to be honest).

Top 10 defensive player of all-time? He's right there. Russell, Olajuwon, Robinson, Duncan, Garnett, Ben Wallace, Ewing, Mutombo, Thurmond, Gilmore, Mourning, Howard and Eaton are clearly above anyone else as far as defense is concerned, in my opinion, so it's really the top 13. Hard to say which three guys would miss the top 10.

[70sFan]

Thanks, so it looks like ABA Gilmore was better defender. So when he came to NBA he wasn't great defender anymore?

He was still great defensively in his first season in the NBA. Anchored the second best defense in the league, and generally made a huge impact on that Bulls team (they won just 24 games in 1975-76, improved to 44 wins in 1976-77 and made the playoffs, where Gilmore certainly held his own against peak Walton).

I have Gilmore in my top 35 all-time, and the 9th best center. His 5-year stretch as a defender in the ABA is one of the better defensive primes of all-time, he was a super efficient scorer capable of scoring 20+ points on a consistent basis, great rebounder, fantastic longevity. I don't think he was much worse than Ewing (they are very comparable to be honest).

Top 10 defensive player of all-time? He's right there. Russell, Olajuwon, Robinson, Duncan, Garnett, Ben Wallace, Ewing, Mutombo, Thurmond, Gilmore, Mourning, Howard and Eaton are clearly above anyone else as far as defense is concerned, in my opinion, so it's really the top 13. Hard to say which three guys would miss the top 10.

How about Kareem and Wilt? I think in their defensive prime they could held their own against anybody. Were they too inconsisten to be in the group of the greatest?
Back to Artis, I haven't seen any of his Bulls games, in Spurs he looks a little like Shaq on defense for me - strong and imposing but didn't like to go outside and not super mobile (I know he's huge).
Also do you have his numbers vs best centers of his era and vice versa? I have Kareems stats, but nothing more from this era (couldn't find Waltons numbers from 77 series).

[Quotatious]

How about Kareem and Wilt? I think in their defensive prime they could held their own against anybody. Were they too inconsisten to be in the group of the greatest?

To me, Wilt is right after those thirteen guys I mentioned. Kareem slightly lower but still top 20. They were great defensively, just not as great as those I mentioned (although Wilt's defensive peak, 1964 or 1968, was likely top 10 all-time...even his 1972 season was great in terms of defense).

Peak Shaq was a top 15 level defender, too (what is oftentimes overlooked about Shaq's 2000 season is that he was a legitimate DPOY candidate - some would even say he deserved to win it over Alonzo, and it would make sense, considering that he anchored the best defense in the league, even better than the Twin Tower Spurs that year).
Shaq's defensive consistency obviously leaves a lot to be desired...

Back to Artis, I haven't seen any of his Bulls games, in Spurs he looks a little like Shaq on defense for me - strong and imposing but didn't like to go outside and not super mobile (I know he's huge).

His defense reminds me a lot of Hibbert's, maybe because of their size, which is similar. Shaq is not a bad comparison, though.

Also do you have his numbers vs best centers of his era and vice versa? I have Kareems stats, but nothing more from this era (couldn't find Waltons numbers from 77 series).

No, unfortunately I don't have those numbers. Only know that Walton and Gilmore were about even in terms of scoring (Gilmore averaged 18.7, Walton 17.3, and Gilmore shot 18/23 from the foul line, compared to 4/8 for Walton).

I'm sure Dipper 13 or ThaRegul8r can help us with that.

[70sFan]

Thanks Quotatious, I really respect your knowledge. Hibbert comparison also looks good although I think even later in his career he looks stronger and a little quicker. Do you think Shaq in his peak was better defender than Kareem? What year would you choose for Kareem def peak?

[Quotatious]

Do you think Shaq in his peak was better defender than Kareem?

They are really close. Probably would give Shaq a slight edge, but Kareem was definitely more consistent on a year-by-year basis.

Kareem's defensive peak? It was definitely on the Bucks, I would choose one of his 1972-74 years (considering how big an offensive burden he was carrying in 1972, I would guess that 1973 or 1974 was the best, and those years, and it correlates well with Milwaukee's defensive ratings as a team). With a gun to my head, I would say 1973 (1972-73 season), because that's when the Bucks had the lowest defensive rating (it may be a bit misleading, because it's possible that it wasn't all because of Kareem's individual play, but it's most likely the case).

I'm not gonna lie, I haven't seen a lot of Kareem's games as a Buck. I'm not an old timer so I totally have to rely on tape, not my own memory.

[70sFan]

Thanks for opinion. On a tape Lew/Kareem from Bucks looks dominant defensively and I also think he is close to Shaq peak (to be fair I also didn't watch him, only as much videos as I can).
Back to topic, still it could be nice to see some numbers of Gilmore vs HoFs, if someone have some data please post here

[70sFan]

Also could someone tell me how much of Artis games are avaliable on YouTube?

[SkyHookFTW]

Also could someone tell me how much of Artis games are avaliable on YouTube?

Maybe go on YouTube and check the Wilt Chamberlain Archive. He has film on other players besides Wilt. He has the best collection of old timer tape out there. CavsFTW runs it; he more than anyone here might have what you are looking for.

[SkyHookFTW]

Thanks Quotatious, I really respect your knowledge. Hibbert comparison also looks good although I think even later in his career he looks stronger and a little quicker. Do you think Shaq in his peak was better defender than Kareem? What year would you choose for Kareem def peak?

I will agree with Quot here with a disclaimer. Kareem was more consistent over the course of his career, but Shaq's peak years defensively are unmatched by any year Kareem had. If you value peak more than career it's Shaq.

[Quotatious]

Also could someone tell me how much of Artis games are avaliable on YouTube?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M5hT3Ziri8[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OrUZgsd3Lw[/youtube]

This is a cool one to look at. Gilmore/Issel vs Daniels/McGinnis in their primes.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nN17x5up5n4[/youtube]

Here's young Artis vs old Wilt (plus a lot more greats).

[70sFan]

Thanks so much, I must watch the first game. I watched ABA vs NBA game about half year ago, it's amazing game - one of the reasons why I became a 60s-70s basketball fan. Artis had a good game but sometimes he looked helpless against old strong Wilt (interesting is that he said that Wilt was very heavy player and that gave him troubles because Artis wasn't as big as he became later. Does he mean that Wilt wasn't that strong, only heavy? Who knows?)

[70sFan]

Also could someone tell me how much of Artis games are avaliable on YouTube?

Maybe go on YouTube and check the Wilt Chamberlain Archive. He has film on other players besides Wilt. He has the best collection of old timer tape out there. CavsFTW runs it; he more than anyone here might have what you are looking for.

Doesn't CavsFTW work only on players from mid 50s to 73 (Wilt last season)? I've followed his channel from about year and a half (btw. everyone SHOULD watch his last video - Kareem NBA debiut ) and I love his videos. He doesn't have any uploaded video about A-Train from what I remember unfourtanetly

[Owly]

ABA Artis was much more active defensively, he came out more and challenged more. OFfensively, he was still developing that repetoire you talked about and mainly relied on his physicality. It was 1975 when Hubie Brown finally decided to make Artis the offensive hub and the Colonels won a championship (with Dan Issel having the worst season of his prime).

In the NBA, for whatever reason, Artis played closer to the basket on both ends. This had 2 effects. First, offensively, he set NBA records for efficiency with FG% up around 60. Defensively, he never seemed to have the same impact he had in the ABA. And, the mobility he had shown in the ABA disappeared, to the extent that he got nicknamed by someone "Rigor Artis."

The biggest knock on Artis, however, is that his personality was retiring and so (a) he rarely called for the ball or tried to take over the game and (b) he wasn't much of a team leader. But still a great player when you consider his combined years, probably just behind Patrick Ewing at around 8th to 10th on the all time center list.

I think (at least so far as I can tell) the Rigor Artis thing came from Boston (maybe Peter May?) and so would be very late in his career. (If true) This isn't to say NBA Artis was super fluid, but I do think it changes how people might read that middle paragraph, which gives an impression of NBA Artis (perhaps even right off the bat) as wooden and stiff, if the reality is that the nickname came more than 10 years into his NBA career.