98 Jordan on the 04 lakers?

[Bklynborn682]

If you put 98 Jordan on the 2004 lakers do they still lose to the Pistons? Nothing changes Karl Malone gets injured and if I remember correctly didn't pay after game 3 not that he really did anything prior. And also Derek fisher is still playing on his torn meniscus that he injured during the Minnesota series.
Basically just put in 98 Mike for 04 Kobe lol

[Quotatious]

Well, MJ certainly would not have struggled the way Kobe did against the Pistons, but the Lakers supporting cast was so horrible that I'm still not sure if they win, as crazy as that sounds (I mean considering they would have Shaq and Jordan still looking relatively prime-ish). I bet the series goes 7 games, not sure who wins. Depends if MJ would've been enough of a presence as a leader to squeeze anything more from the role players than Kobe did.

[RCM88x]

Lakes would probably win that series, I have a hard time imagining even a 35 year old Jordan would only average 23/3/4.5 on 38/17/92. Kobe played alright defense but Jordan wouldn't be bad enough or dumb enough to take as many bad shots and shoot as poorly as Kobe. Kobe was just horrible in those finals, and I don't think it was all due to the Detroit defense.

[Asianiac_24]

I think the Lakers still lose. The 04 Pistons had probably the toughest defense the league has ever seen, and all the role players of the Lakers going cold, along with Karl Malone going down won't help either

[Quotatious]

Speaking of the Lakers role players, it's hard to believe how horrible Gary Payton was in the playoffs that year. He was still a pretty fine player in RS, but then pretty much became a scrub in the postseason...Did he have some kind of a serious injury? I don't remember anything like that, to be honest.

[Bklynborn682]

Speaking of the Lakers role players, it's hard to believe how horrible Gary Payton was in the playoffs that year. He was still a pretty fine player in RS, but then pretty much became a scrub in the postseason...Did he have some kind of a serious injury? I don't remember anything like that, to be honest.

No honestly after the first two games against the Spurs he got killed by the media which led to a players meeting that got a little hostile if I remember correctly he had a good game 3 against the Spurs but after that he was pretty much a no show throughout those playoffs and finals. I think Gary's specialty apart from obviously his D, was his confidence and the fact the media was killing him the lakers at least throughout the WC playoffs always made him a priority on offense in the 1st quarter then if he got 5 shots the rest of the game someone was in foul trouble lol.
But I really think his confidence was shattered which didn't allow him to trash talk as much which just led to him getting torched in particular with Chauncey.
I have all of the playoff games from that year and unless they kept it a secret Gary never suffered a injury in the playoffs.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

They probably still lose in 6 games.

Karl Malones injury. GP getting roasted by Billups doesn't change.

Shaq didn't seem interested in anything that series either other than 1 on 1 scoring. He was out rebounded by Ben Wallace for the series and was almost non existent as a help defender/rim protector. He blocked a whopping 3 shots for the entire series......tied with Kobe Bryant and Elden Campbell off the Pistons bench who didn't even start.

And unlike the 98 Finals Jordan would have to guard someone of actual worth in prime Richard Hamilton. Following him through a lot of screens and plus I think prime Tayshaun Prince was a better defender than Bryon Russell.

[Bklynborn682]

They probably still lose in 6 games.

Karl Malones injury. GP getting roasted by Billups doesn't change.

Shaq didn't seem interested in anything that series either other than 1 on 1 scoring. He was out rebounded by Ben Wallace for the series and was almost non existent as a help defender/rim protector. He blocked a whopping 3 shots for the entire series......tied with Kobe Bryant and Elden Campbell off the Pistons bench who didn't even start.

And unlike the 98 Finals Jordan would have to guard someone of actual worth in prime Richard Hamilton. Following him through a lot of screens and plus I think prime Tayshaun Prince was a better defender than Bryon Russell.

I have never really understand the reasoning behind people killing Shaq's D in the finals first off throughout the playoffs Shaq led the league in Blocks, also when you look at his advanced stats he had one of his best defensive playoffs of his career, I agree his actual numbers as a whole don't look great by any stretch, but with Shaq playing great during the WC playoffs I don't think he fell that far off for the finals and for the amount that he did I partially blame the coaching staff even Phil admitted after the first 2 games they were caught unaware of Detroits offense. but even with that Shaq was nowhere near as bad as some people make him out to be, at least in my opinion as I have all those games and have seen them in entirety as of this past summer

[Point-Forward]

Speaking of the Lakers role players, it's hard to believe how horrible Gary Payton was in the playoffs that year. He was still a pretty fine player in RS, but then pretty much became a scrub in the postseason...Did he have some kind of a serious injury? I don't remember anything like that, to be honest.

Never felt comfortable within the triangle-offense, and his personality didn't mesh well with a locker room that was already filled up with divas.

Phil Jackson once said, in his 2004 book if I remember correctly, that some old players have huge troubles learning how to execute the triangle because they have spent many years playing basketball in a certain way. Their mental approach to the game can hardly be changed because they already have it wired in their brain. He said Mitch Richmond was a great example.

Gary Payton is probably another. He was used to a ball-dominant role and couldn't be himself in a system that relied on ball movement, which already had a ball-dominant perimeter creator in Kobe. Just a bad fit.

[Bklynborn682]

Speaking of the Lakers role players, it's hard to believe how horrible Gary Payton was in the playoffs that year. He was still a pretty fine player in RS, but then pretty much became a scrub in the postseason...Did he have some kind of a serious injury? I don't remember anything like that, to be honest.

Never felt comfortable within the triangle-offense, and his personality didn't mesh well with a locker room that was already filled up with divas.

Phil Jackson once said, in his 2004 book if I remember correctly, that some old players have huge troubles learning how to execute the triangle because they have spent many years playing basketball in a certain way. Their mental approach to the game can hardly be changed because they already have it wired in their brain. He said Mitch Richmond was a great example.

Gary Payton is probably another.

Glen rice was the perfect example of that to me.

[DirtyDez]

Part of the Lakers problem was their dysfunction so we're saying they get Jordan and all the bs tension goes away? How is that quantified?

[DirtyDez]

Well, MJ certainly would not have struggled the way Kobe did against the Pistons, but the Lakers supporting cast was so horrible that I'm still not sure if they win, as crazy as that sounds (I mean considering they would have Shaq and Jordan still looking relatively prime-ish). I bet the series goes 7 games, not sure who wins. Depends if MJ would've been enough of a presence as a leader to squeeze anything more from the role players than Kobe did.

I don't get how they took down SA but were completely lost vs Detroit. There's not much difference between the two.

[Bklynborn682]

Well, MJ certainly would not have struggled the way Kobe did against the Pistons, but the Lakers supporting cast was so horrible that I'm still not sure if they win, as crazy as that sounds (I mean considering they would have Shaq and Jordan still looking relatively prime-ish). I bet the series goes 7 games, not sure who wins. Depends if MJ would've been enough of a presence as a leader to squeeze anything more from the role players than Kobe did.

I don't get how they took down SA but were completely lost vs Detroit. There's not much difference between the two.

For one thing I think you could clearly see Kobe was going to make sure if the lakers won he'd be finals MVP this time.
Also the injuries themselves really screwed them up first Derek Fisher ripped his meniscus during game 6 against Minnesota, which required surgery but he played through than Karl who hurt himself during the Minnesota series as well but really injured himself in game 2 of the Pistons series to the. Those 2 injuries and Kobe deciding he wouldn't be a second fiddle any longer were the major differences between SA and Detroit. Also Detroit did a lot of illegal things on defense like holding and grabbing as well as bumping ball handlers and cutters completely out of position, which led to a whole new set of rules the following season.

[wallsfamily]

Instead of Kobe Lakers win. With Kobe they win as well. The Jordan effect is the ease of shots.

[JordansBulls]

They would have smoked the Pistons

[Bklynborn682]

Instead of Kobe Lakers win. With Kobe they win as well. The Jordan effect is the ease of shots.

What do you mean instead of Kobe lakers win and with Kobe they win as well?

[ronnymac2]

They still lose if Malone is hurt and the Laker role players play like ****. Role players decide the game. One of even two superstars doesn't mean much if the other guys play poorly. Pistons win in five games.

That said, it'd be fun to watch a badass dude like Jordan go up against the Pistons and mentally try to destroy them. Jordan doesn't give a **** inch, so it'd be interesting to see how he responds to Detroit's defense and attitude.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

I have never really understand the reasoning behind people killing Shaq's D in the finals first off throughout the playoffs Shaq led the league in Blocks, also when you look at his advanced stats he had one of his best defensive playoffs of his career, I agree his actual numbers as a whole don't look great by any stretch, but with Shaq playing great during the WC playoffs I don't think he fell that far off for the finals and for the amount that he did I partially blame the coaching staff even Phil admitted after the first 2 games they were caught unaware of Detroits offense. but even with that Shaq was nowhere near as bad as some people make him out to be, at least in my opinion as I have all those games and have seen them in entirety as of this past summer

The problem was one of the "people" who criticized his defensive effort vs Detroit was Tex Winter who was one of his coaches:


"Shaq defeated himself against the Pistons - He had one big game in the finals - Boxing out and rebounding was awful by Shaq in the Finals - One assist in a finals game is inexcusable - Over the years Shaq has had no interest in defense or rebounding, only on the offensive end"

Look at this compilation:

Watch on YouTube

Now he contests some shots and I think the video is over critical in some instances. But like 2:57 you see Ben beating him down the floor for a uncontested dunk because he's the last Laker back. And other instances are lack of effort and poor rotations on his part. Not to mention the 1st 3 games in a row he was whistled for jumping early in the tip offs costing LA opening possessions.

[90sgoat]

This is honestly crazy.

No way in hell does a team with Shaq and MJ lose to Pistons. No way.

[Quotatious]

I have never really understand the reasoning behind people killing Shaq's D in the finals first off throughout the playoffs Shaq led the league in Blocks, also when you look at his advanced stats he had one of his best defensive playoffs of his career, I agree his actual numbers as a whole don't look great by any stretch, but with Shaq playing great during the WC playoffs I don't think he fell that far off for the finals and for the amount that he did I partially blame the coaching staff even Phil admitted after the first 2 games they were caught unaware of Detroits offense. but even with that Shaq was nowhere near as bad as some people make him out to be, at least in my opinion as I have all those games and have seen them in entirety as of this past summer

The problem was one of the "people" who criticized his defensive effort vs Detroit was Tex Winter who was one of his coaches:


"Shaq defeated himself against the Pistons - He had one big game in the finals - Boxing out and rebounding was awful by Shaq in the Finals - One assist in a finals game is inexcusable - Over the years Shaq has had no interest in defense or rebounding, only on the offensive end"

Look at this compilation:

Watch on YouTube

Now he contests some shots and I think the video is over critical in some instances. But like 2:57 you see Ben beating him down the floor for a uncontested dunk because he's the last Laker back. And other instances are lack of effort and poor rotations on his part. Not to mention the 1st 3 games in a row he was whistled for jumping early in the tip offs costing LA opening possessions.

Shaq shouldn't really be criticized for anything he did in that series, because he was the only player on his team who had a good series overall. His defensive shortcomings don't quite overshadow his great scoring. I mean, you can find a few defensive mistakes for every single player, if you look at an entire series, even Russell or Hakeem. If Shaq didn't score as well as he actually did, that would've been the worst beatdown in NBA finals history, considering who horrible the rest of that team was (including Kobe, who was atrocious in that series). Even the two sentences which appear at the beginning of that video, where Shaq is called the best player in that series, in spite of poor defense, says a lot...

Besides, Tex Winter's quote is baffling because throughout his career, Shaq was an excellent rebounder and a good defender (at his peak, he was even a DPOY level defender and second best rebounder in the league, in 2000). Even in the 2004 finals, Shaq averaged almost 11 rpg, and 13 consecutive 10+ rebounds seasons, 12.0 rebounds per game from 1993 to 2005, even more in the playoffs.