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A look at how subjective workouts can be...

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A look at how subjective workouts can be... 

Post#1 » by fam3381 » Sat May 31, 2008 8:00 pm

Jonathan Givony (DX) and Chad Ford are probably the two most well-known guys covering the draft. But check out how different some of their impressions were of the stuff that happened on Friday (note that these workouts are much shorter than most team workouts):

Michael Beasley

Givony wrote:Michael Beasley looked super fluid and athletic getting up and down the court, finishing with either hand and looking to be in pretty good shape. He attacked the drills with a lot of competitive fire, but most definitely was clowning around way too much throughout the day right underneath the noses of the Miami Heat and Chicago Bulls. There were a few people that expressed concern with some of his antics over the past few days. He shot the ball just decently.


Ford wrote:Beasley was the first player on the floor but the last to go through the workout. While other workouts were going on, we all watched in awe as Beasley drained NBA 3-pointer after NBA 3-pointer. That continued in the workouts, in which Beasley shot as well as any prospect here. Deep or midrange, Beasley can shoot the lights out.


Derrick Rose:

Ford wrote:Rose won't look especially great in these drills. His jump shot is his weakness, though it's not as bad as some people make it out to be. He hit a respectable number of shots in the workouts and showed his value with his speed, leaping ability and ballhandling.


Givony wrote:Clearly the most impressive workout of any of the 15 players belonged to Derrick Rose. Not so much for what he showed, but mostly just for what he is. He got up and down the floor fluidly and smoothly, covering tons of ground with each and every stride, and looked excellent changing speeds and operating skillfully with both hands in the ball-handling drills. His athleticism is nothing short of stunning, starting with his phenomenal first step, his ability to change gears, and his incredible explosiveness finishing around the basket. He came out with a business-like approach, and left no doubt about just how unique his talent-level and physical tools are. A nice bonus was the way he shot the ball, hitting more than one NBA 3-pointer and looking solid from mid-range as well.


Anthony Randolph:

Givony wrote:Speaking of lukewarm impressions, Brook Lopez didn’t do a whole lot to ease the concerns NBA people have about him, not moving all that well up and down the floor and showing a very average skill-level in most of the drills. The same can be said about Anthony Randolph, who showed up with a long undershirt intended to hide just how incredibly skinny he still is at the moment. He looked great dunking the ball in the transition drills and handling the ball fluidly in the open floor, but was completely unable to hit a mid-range or long-range jumper in any of the drills, not even coming up close on many of his attempts.


Ford wrote:I thought Randolph really helped himself in this workout. He moves incredibly well for a big man, showed great quickness and leaping ability, and shot the ball much better than expected. Randolph also looked as if he has gained some weight, which should really help his cause. I think Randolph is one of the five top prospects in this draft.


Donte Greene:

Givony wrote:Donte Greene looked big and very smooth, making an effort to dunk every ball he could as hard as possible, while also shooting the ball well from the perimeter. He still has work to do on toning up his body, though, and is clearly just an average ball-handler.


Ford wrote:Greene wasn't great in the workouts, either. He is a good athlete, but his shot wasn't falling as well as some other prospects' and he didn't do anything to stand out the way some of the others did.
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Post#2 » by bigkurty » Sat May 31, 2008 8:12 pm

I was going to post this actually as I noticed the same thing. Its amazing just how different their thoughts are. Maybe we should be debating whether JG or Ford is a more reliable source.
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Post#3 » by Ayt » Sat May 31, 2008 8:30 pm

This is pretty funny, really.

The same holds true for GMs as well obviously, though I'm sure to a smaller degree.
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Post#4 » by bango_the_buck » Sat May 31, 2008 8:37 pm

bigkurty wrote:I was going to post this actually as I noticed the same thing. Its amazing just how different their thoughts are. Maybe we should be debating whether JG or Ford is a more reliable source.
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Post#5 » by Simulack » Sat May 31, 2008 8:46 pm

Ayt wrote:This is pretty funny, really.

The same holds true for GMs as well obviously, though I'm sure to a smaller degree.


That was my first thought as well. The same things happens with GM's/scouts and that is the reason one team has Brook Lopez as a premier center prospect and another has him ranked low as a guy who doesn't have a good feel for the game and should be avoided. They are obviously all watching mostly the same tape/workouts and just coming to different conclusions.

First-hand experience can be so unreliable that even professionals come to wildly different assessments of the same material. That's why I'm skeptical when someone backs an argument with: "if you saw the player more, you would understand!"
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Post#6 » by ReasonablySober » Sat May 31, 2008 8:51 pm

Personally I don't like to rely on either JG or Ford. JG's basically one of us, only he made a website (albeit a very good one).

Ford's a homeless man's Mel Kiper.
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Post#7 » by trwi7 » Sat May 31, 2008 8:54 pm

DrugBust wrote:Personally I don't like to rely on either JG or Ford. JG's basically one of us, only he made a website (albeit a very good one).

Ford's a homeless man's Mel Kiper without the hair.


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Post#8 » by emunney » Sat May 31, 2008 9:10 pm

How long has JG been doing DX/DraftCity? Seems like it's been a pretty long time. And it seems like for quite a few of those years, it's been his only job. I'd say he's a professional independent scout at this point. He reviews more tape than any of us, and talks with other scouts, etc. And he's been doing this for a while. He's not one of us. He's one of us if one of us had a lot more experience doing this and all of our time to dedicate to it. We're moonlighters at best.
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Post#9 » by NotYoAvgNBAFan » Sat May 31, 2008 9:11 pm

FAM this is exactly why I do not read those magazines or any of those stupid mock drafts!
THAT IS WHY I LOOK FOR MYSELF. All of you put all of your marbles on what you read from these dimwits! :roll:

Great find Fam! Excellent post! They are all clowns :clown:

Two guys saw two different things and wrote the exact opposite of the other! :crazy: :crazy:

Just like the height and weight measurements...6'9 in shoes and out of them...blah blah blah.

You can't tell about a player in a workout...Some players play better in games not workouts.

But many of you will fight and judge based on what these writers say they see. You dont know these players personalities.

Perhaps Beasley jokes around because he is nervous. I think he has a Derrick Coleman type personality really. He is really a raw acting what you see is what you get kind of kid.

Many will see his attitude and indifferent body language and attention span as disturbing. He gets bored very fast.

Someone who takes him will really have to get his attention and might need to go to a team with a mild mannered coach.

Rose is a gem. But the assessment on Donte' and some others are all about trying to line up these workouts to not contradict their mock drafts!

If a reporter rated a guy low in the mock drafts he will see and write what he wants to in order to support what he viewed.

I dont read that crap and take some writers with a grain of salt.
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Post#10 » by ReasonablySober » Sat May 31, 2008 9:15 pm

emunney wrote:How long has JG been doing DX/DraftCity? Seems like it's been a pretty long time. And it seems like for quite a few of those years, it's been his only job. I'd say he's a professional independent scout at this point. He reviews more tape than any of us, and talks with other scouts, etc. And he's been doing this for a while. He's not one of us. He's one of us if one of us had a lot more experience doing this and all of our time to dedicate to it. We're moonlighters at best.


Four years now, I think?
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Post#11 » by NotYoAvgNBAFan » Sat May 31, 2008 9:16 pm

emunney wrote:How long has JG been doing DX/DraftCity? Seems like it's been a pretty long time. And it seems like for quite a few of those years, it's been his only job. I'd say he's a professional independent scout at this point. He reviews more tape than any of us, and talks with other scouts, etc. And he's been doing this for a while. He's not one of us. He's one of us if one of us had a lot more experience doing this and all of our time to dedicate to it. We're moonlighters at best.
Pro scouts and writers dont see nothing I dont see! I could do their jobs!

How hard can it be!? I can give just as good an assessment on a player by looking at him for 10 minutes too!

I can think and see for myself! Yes they might confirm a lot of what I see myself. I dont care how many tapes he views! I can view tapes too!

I have eyes! I have a mind. I love the game too. I know basketball as well. I know who can play, who dogs it, and what kind of player they can and will be too.

We all do...some of us in here. But many in here read what they say as gospel. I use to confirm and support my assessment not establish them.

I've seen every player in this draft once or twice. But a workout tells you what a coaching staff will have to work on with a player.
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Post#12 » by Ayt » Sat May 31, 2008 9:35 pm

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Post#13 » by smauss » Sat May 31, 2008 9:43 pm

Very interesting fam, great stuff. Almost 180 degrees difference in opinions. My guess for why is where they each started from as it relates to each player. How each guy had each player slotted before their workouts. We see that with discussions on this board.
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Post#14 » by fam3381 » Sat May 31, 2008 10:25 pm

smauss wrote:My guess for why is where they each started from as it relates to each player. How each guy had each player slotted before their workouts. We see that with discussions on this board.


I think that's a lot of it...your expectations have a huge impact on whether what you see appears good or bad. Low expectations make it easier to impress obviously. And then there's the built-in bias of liking/not liking a guy and then allowing that to color your impression.
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Post#15 » by fam3381 » Sat May 31, 2008 10:27 pm

emunney wrote:How long has JG been doing DX/DraftCity? Seems like it's been a pretty long time. And it seems like for quite a few of those years, it's been his only job. I'd say he's a professional independent scout at this point. He reviews more tape than any of us, and talks with other scouts, etc. And he's been doing this for a while. He's not one of us. He's one of us if one of us had a lot more experience doing this and all of our time to dedicate to it. We're moonlighters at best.


I think he started it when he was a freshman in college or something...he's still very young (early 20s I'd assume).
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Post#16 » by emunney » Sun Jun 1, 2008 1:16 am

NotYoAvgNBAFan wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Pro scouts and writers dont see nothing I dont see! I could do their jobs!


I think most of us could. Not you, but most of us.

The point is that we don't.
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Post#17 » by paulpressey25 » Sun Jun 1, 2008 1:51 am

Great post Fam. We need to bookmark this one and look at it next March.

I do agree with you that it goes with expectations.
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Post#18 » by MickeyDavis » Sun Jun 1, 2008 2:23 am

Excellent post fam. Absolutely these guys go into these workouts with preconceived notions. They've already written opinions on these guys and it seems as if they want to prove they were right. They see what they want to see.
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Post#19 » by BlueJeep » Sun Jun 1, 2008 4:10 am

Ayt wrote:MBBOT for Bucks GM!


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Post#20 » by carmelbrownqueen » Sun Jun 1, 2008 3:48 pm

Anthony Randolph:

Givony wrote:
Speaking of lukewarm impressions, Brook Lopez didn’t do a whole lot to ease the concerns NBA people have about him, not moving all that well up and down the floor and showing a very average skill-level in most of the drills. The same can be said about Anthony Randolph, who showed up with a long undershirt intended to hide just how incredibly skinny he still is at the moment. He looked great dunking the ball in the transition drills and handling the ball fluidly in the open floor, but was completely unable to hit a mid-range or long-range jumper in any of the drills, not even coming up close on many of his attempts.


Ford wrote:
I thought Randolph really helped himself in this workout. He moves incredibly well for a big man, showed great quickness and leaping ability, and shot the ball much better than expected. Randolph also looked as if he has gained some weight, which should really help his cause. I think Randolph is one of the five top prospects in this draft.


Great topic Fam! I also found the differences interesting. In regard to Randolph, I'm going to agree with JG on him. I am posting a picture from nbadraft.net, and in my opinion he looks to be hinding just who skinny he still continues to be, and doesn't look any bigger:

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