DeMar was the problem and the Bulls will win more games this year without him.

[dougthonus]

Sure, just answering your question. But yeah, my recollection of that championship was basically that Dirk had an insanely hot run and that was really what did it.

Yeah, Jason Terry was especially hot too. The Jason Terry tattoo story is legendary.

https://www.espn.com/dallas/nba/news/story?id=6592221

[League Circles]

Who was the last team that truly had an elite passing PG with top notch basketball IQ?

Mavs with Kidd?

Yeah, Kidd qualifies, but he was also probably the 5th most important person on that team behind Dirk, Terry, Marion, and Chandler which also still kind of shows the same point.

And, critically, by that point in his career, he could still defend and had been able go develop a reliable 3 point shot. Arguably, as a 5th best guy not needed to score, those were more important traits for him that year than his still good creation skills.

[rosenthall]

Now I feel like the impact of PG play is being underrated. Lebron is, for all intents and purposes, a PG. He is not a Ben Simmons or Scottie Barnes who lack the handle and movement skills to get anywhere they need to get to set things up. Luka is a point, even if he takes a lot of the shots himself. Kyrie? Rondo?

Giddey scores and looks for himself plenty, but what distinguishes him from, say Coby or Ayo or Caruso (much less DDR, LaVine), is sort of quarterbacking the offense skills - controlling things by various means to lead the team to getting the best shot possible (as opposed to just moving to get yourself the best shot possible and worrying about someone else having a better shot only as a secondary thing). That is aided by, but not limited to, his passing vision and accuracy.

Beyond that, though, if you don’t have a top 10 guy who simply changes the offensive dynamic all by their lonesome (or a crew of all-star level guys like Boston), having strong PG play is critical. That is why NY brought in Brunson. That is why Miami had brought in Lowry (despite Jimmy playing a decent amount of point) and then Rozier as Lowry aged out. Why Pop brought in CP3.

Because if you can’t simply out talent the other team, you need to, at minimum, maximize your talent - and that is what good point play does on the offensive end.

I agree with you that you need a minimum amount of ball distribution to be a successful team, and the Bulls for the last two years are a testament to that.

However, I disagree with you that Giddey is the kind of guy who can get anywhere he needs to go on the court to create shots for himself.

I think Giddey definitely has the passing skills to be a lead guard a la Luka or Shai, but his shot creation skills are well below what you'd want for that role. I don't see an impressive offensive repertoire for someone cast into the role as lead guard. Ideally your lead guard has a combination of shot creation / ball distribution that are above certain levels. Giddey is good in one area, but subpar in the other. So you have to split the shot creation / ball distribution roles between two players which is not how most teams do it.

And we sort of are doing that right now. It looks to me like Giddey is our lead passer, but Coby is our lead penetrator.

[Chi town]

I think Giddey’s role will be PG Hub. A hybrid of Vuc and Lonzo that keeps the ball moving and the offense getting open shots.

[CBS7]

Having no competent PG on the roster for YEARS in a row was the problem. We had to play DeMar ball because that was the only way this team could be competitive. The slow pace and the reliance on midrange just came with it because that happens to be DeMar's game. But I will say though that I wish San Antonio DeMar would make more of an appearance than Toronto DeMar.

You can't turn somebody who's not a point guard into one overnight during the season and expect success, and we have so many combo guards/forwards who are just not a facilitator. The reason Pat Bev was so effective was because he was a point guard on a roster devoid of it. Coby White last year salvaged the season and made it fun to watch because he started facilitating, but he too isn't a natural point guard in a way that Josh Giddey is (he's a shooter/scorer first).

I wanna keep an eye on Sacramento this year and see how adding DeMar affects them. They had a 99.4 pace last year, and during this preseason, that number has actually gone up to 102.13 (though ranked lower overall - everyone just moves a lot faster during preseason).

I’d argue the BULLS haven’t have a True PG since BJ

Ron Harper and Kirk was combo guards. As was #1

Jayson williams didn’t last more than 82 games

Duhon was ok but I wasn’t a fan of them getting dukes 4th best guard from that team.

Grant was a Pat on the back to his uncle

And cannon was a small combo guard

Lonzo is a SG who can’t shoot masquerading as a PG.

And Giddy isn’t a PG either to my understanding.

Edit : no comment on Dunn

Your understanding is weird. All these guys aren't "true PGs" despite them being better at doing the thing "true PGs" are known for better than BJ Armstrong is? BJ never averaged even 5 assists a season, and never more than 4 in a Bulls uni.

[jnrjr79]

Having no competent PG on the roster for YEARS in a row was the problem. We had to play DeMar ball because that was the only way this team could be competitive. The slow pace and the reliance on midrange just came with it because that happens to be DeMar's game. But I will say though that I wish San Antonio DeMar would make more of an appearance than Toronto DeMar.

You can't turn somebody who's not a point guard into one overnight during the season and expect success, and we have so many combo guards/forwards who are just not a facilitator. The reason Pat Bev was so effective was because he was a point guard on a roster devoid of it. Coby White last year salvaged the season and made it fun to watch because he started facilitating, but he too isn't a natural point guard in a way that Josh Giddey is (he's a shooter/scorer first).

I wanna keep an eye on Sacramento this year and see how adding DeMar affects them. They had a 99.4 pace last year, and during this preseason, that number has actually gone up to 102.13 (though ranked lower overall - everyone just moves a lot faster during preseason).

I’d argue the BULLS haven’t have a True PG since BJ

Ron Harper and Kirk was combo guards. As was #1

Jayson williams didn’t last more than 82 games

Duhon was ok but I wasn’t a fan of them getting dukes 4th best guard from that team.

Grant was a Pat on the back to his uncle

And cannon was a small combo guard

Lonzo is a SG who can’t shoot masquerading as a PG.

And Giddy isn’t a PG either to my understanding.

Edit : no comment on Dunn

Your understanding is weird. All these guys aren't "true PGs" despite them being better at doing the thing "true PGs" are known for better than BJ Armstrong is? BJ never averaged even 5 assists a season, and never more than 4 in a Bulls uni.

Exactly.

Those Bulls dynasty teams didn't use a "true" PG. If anyone was the PG, it was Scottie. The point guards weren't primary ball handlers, by and large.

[Jvaughn]

I think Giddey’s role will be PG Hub. A hybrid of Vuc and Lonzo that keeps the ball moving and the offense getting open shots.

And this is the biggest thing IMO. While it's not necessary to have an elite PG to win a championship, we have had a team full of complimentary pieces that lack the ability to create the mismatches teams with superstars have. What Lonzo was able to do, and what Giddey is doing now is putting those players in position to excel. He's that connector that makes those pieces go.

Obviously we're not a championship contender, but this offense runs so much smoother when Giddey and Ball are able to keep the offense from getting stagnant. We will continue to live and die by the 3 ball though. Our 3 falls, we won. It doesn't, and we lose.

[RSP83]

This isn't to say having a more organized offense isn't good or having a guy who specializes in setting people up isn't good, but lacking a PG hasn't been our problem. Lacking a superstar that generates massive gravity has been our problem and still is our problem. Having better ball movement may help keep us around .500, but who cares?

I agree that having an elite PG isn't the be-all and end-all when building a championship team.

But I also disagree that for the previous group of guys (2021-2024), lacking a PG was the problem. The difference between 2021-22 Bulls and 2022-2024 Bulls was the level of play from the PG position. It may not be championship favorite in Vegas, but with the makeup of that team, the level of PG play matters. It keeps us playing a level above .500 tier vs. 2 years never reaching above .500 tier.

Since this is a Demar thread, I also want to add again that Demar wasn't the problem. He may not be the superstar that generates massive gravity, but everyone here agrees that he was proving people wrong and the team was leading the East before our PG play went non-existent after Lonzo got injured and we continued to fail to replicate that level of PG play again.

[dougthonus]

I agree that having an elite PG isn't the be-all and end-all when building a championship team.

But I also disagree that for the previous group of guys (2021-2024), lacking a PG was the problem. The difference between 2021-22 Bulls and 2022-2024 Bulls was the level of play from the PG position. It may not be championship favorite in Vegas, but with the makeup of that team, the level of PG play matters. It keeps us playing a level above .500 tier vs. 2 years never reaching above .500 tier.

Since this is a Demar thread, I also want to add again that Demar wasn't the problem. He may not be the superstar that generates massive gravity, but everyone here agrees that he was proving people wrong and the team was leading the East before our PG play went non-existent after Lonzo got injured and we continued to fail to replicate that level of PG play again.

I'd make two general comments:

1: We were a +2 net rating with Lonzo, which generally means were a mid to upper 40s caliber team

2: Of the things Lonzo brought that we missed, I would rank them in this order:
1: Great three point shooting
2: Defense
3: PG play

I wouldn't distill that down to PG play.

This year, so far, our offensive rating sucks. Our much better PG play hasn't generated good offense for us.

[terry]

Having no competent PG on the roster for YEARS in a row was the problem. We had to play DeMar ball because that was the only way this team could be competitive. The slow pace and the reliance on midrange just came with it because that happens to be DeMar's game. But I will say though that I wish San Antonio DeMar would make more of an appearance than Toronto DeMar.

You can't turn somebody who's not a point guard into one overnight during the season and expect success, and we have so many combo guards/forwards who are just not a facilitator. The reason Pat Bev was so effective was because he was a point guard on a roster devoid of it. Coby White last year salvaged the season and made it fun to watch because he started facilitating, but he too isn't a natural point guard in a way that Josh Giddey is (he's a shooter/scorer first).

I wanna keep an eye on Sacramento this year and see how adding DeMar affects them. They had a 99.4 pace last year, and during this preseason, that number has actually gone up to 102.13 (though ranked lower overall - everyone just moves a lot faster during preseason).

I’d argue the BULLS haven’t have a True PG since BJ

Ron Harper and Kirk was combo guards. As was #1

Jayson williams didn’t last more than 82 games

Duhon was ok but I wasn’t a fan of them getting dukes 4th best guard from that team.

Grant was a Pat on the back to his uncle

And cannon was a small combo guard

Lonzo is a SG who can’t shoot masquerading as a PG.

And Giddy isn’t a PG either to my understanding.

Edit : no comment on Dunn

Rajon Rondo. Conversation over.

[ShadyMoney]

Having no competent PG on the roster for YEARS in a row was the problem. We had to play DeMar ball because that was the only way this team could be competitive. The slow pace and the reliance on midrange just came with it because that happens to be DeMar's game. But I will say though that I wish San Antonio DeMar would make more of an appearance than Toronto DeMar.

You can't turn somebody who's not a point guard into one overnight during the season and expect success, and we have so many combo guards/forwards who are just not a facilitator. The reason Pat Bev was so effective was because he was a point guard on a roster devoid of it. Coby White last year salvaged the season and made it fun to watch because he started facilitating, but he too isn't a natural point guard in a way that Josh Giddey is (he's a shooter/scorer first).

I wanna keep an eye on Sacramento this year and see how adding DeMar affects them. They had a 99.4 pace last year, and during this preseason, that number has actually gone up to 102.13 (though ranked lower overall - everyone just moves a lot faster during preseason).

That was so quick I forgot about it

I’d argue the BULLS haven’t have a True PG since BJ

Ron Harper and Kirk was combo guards. As was #1

Jayson williams didn’t last more than 82 games

Duhon was ok but I wasn’t a fan of them getting dukes 4th best guard from that team.

Grant was a Pat on the back to his uncle

And cannon was a small combo guard

Lonzo is a SG who can’t shoot masquerading as a PG.

And Giddy isn’t a PG either to my understanding.

Edit : no comment on Dunn

Rajon Rondo. Conversation over.

[ShadyMoney]

Having no competent PG on the roster for YEARS in a row was the problem. We had to play DeMar ball because that was the only way this team could be competitive. The slow pace and the reliance on midrange just came with it because that happens to be DeMar's game. But I will say though that I wish San Antonio DeMar would make more of an appearance than Toronto DeMar.

You can't turn somebody who's not a point guard into one overnight during the season and expect success, and we have so many combo guards/forwards who are just not a facilitator. The reason Pat Bev was so effective was because he was a point guard on a roster devoid of it. Coby White last year salvaged the season and made it fun to watch because he started facilitating, but he too isn't a natural point guard in a way that Josh Giddey is (he's a shooter/scorer first).

I wanna keep an eye on Sacramento this year and see how adding DeMar affects them. They had a 99.4 pace last year, and during this preseason, that number has actually gone up to 102.13 (though ranked lower overall - everyone just moves a lot faster during preseason).

I’d argue the BULLS haven’t have a True PG since BJ

Ron Harper and Kirk was combo guards. As was #1

Jayson williams didn’t last more than 82 games

Duhon was ok but I wasn’t a fan of them getting dukes 4th best guard from that team.

Grant was a Pat on the back to his uncle

And cannon was a small combo guard

Lonzo is a SG who can’t shoot masquerading as a PG.

And Giddy isn’t a PG either to my understanding.

Edit : no comment on Dunn

Your understanding is weird. All these guys aren't "true PGs" despite them being better at doing the thing "true PGs" are known for better than BJ Armstrong is? BJ never averaged even 5 assists a season, and never more than 4 in a Bulls uni.

That 5 Assit was going a long way with games ending 65-70

[MrSparkle]

I agree that having an elite PG isn't the be-all and end-all when building a championship team.

But I also disagree that for the previous group of guys (2021-2024), lacking a PG was the problem. The difference between 2021-22 Bulls and 2022-2024 Bulls was the level of play from the PG position. It may not be championship favorite in Vegas, but with the makeup of that team, the level of PG play matters. It keeps us playing a level above .500 tier vs. 2 years never reaching above .500 tier.

Since this is a Demar thread, I also want to add again that Demar wasn't the problem. He may not be the superstar that generates massive gravity, but everyone here agrees that he was proving people wrong and the team was leading the East before our PG play went non-existent after Lonzo got injured and we continued to fail to replicate that level of PG play again.

I'd make two general comments:

1: We were a +2 net rating with Lonzo, which generally means were a mid to upper 40s caliber team

2: Of the things Lonzo brought that we missed, I would rank them in this order:
1: Great three point shooting
2: Defense
3: PG play

I wouldn't distill that down to PG play.

This year, so far, our offensive rating sucks. Our much better PG play hasn't generated good offense for us.

I agree. Lonzo is the ultimate glue/3D guy. Make it 3DP with the pass. It’s a shame his career was over before the Bulls could catch a breathe. But it was very noticeable to me that he couldn’t really create halfcourt offense with the ball in his hands. We did have a few ugly 40+ blowouts with our “#1 seed,” and what happened was they picked apart our rim and 3P defense and then shut down our transition offense. The team couldn’t do anything in the half court besides isolating Demar. Lonzo was low usage and a big plus, but you needed high usage iso players to actually play point.

I think Giddey’s potential entirely rests on the shooting percentages, and maybe playing him positionally as a PF. He’s got good intangibles and hands. Grabs loose balls, rebounds. But his feet are made of concrete, and he has horrible lateral movement. His 3P% is actually above 40% but the FT% is at 60. That’s terrible. He’s an interesting prospect, but I have no idea what contract Bulls should settle for. Personally my limit would be $20M salary. His ineffective NBA stats make me think of Jason Williams and Rubio. Overall his best comparison might be rich man Kyle Anderson. The highlight plays are fun, but the net play is negative. He’s an incredibly niche player. Probably should be a 6th man, paid $15M.

His biggest weaknesses are Lonzo’s elite strengths, which translate to the W column.

I don’t think we have a PG/guard problem anymore. Coby isn’t perfect, but he pulls higher stats than before. We have a major SF/PF/C problem. League worst rim protection, weak sauce help defense and shot blocking, low 3P volume, poor ballhandling. Replace Pat and Vuc with Allen (or Mobley) and a Christmas tree and our team would be radically better. We should be pursuing Cooper/Bailey/Harper.