Vučević discussion thread. I don't want to but what the heck.

[sco]

I believe they could add THT and Julian Philips to the trade without impacting it because the Lakers could take them into vet min exceptions. They could then release Carter and Duarte if you presume those would be the four players you'd let go anyway.

Not that I think such a trade is going to happen, just think that you could probably find a way around the roster size issue if necessary, you could also expand it somewhere so some other team takes a 2 for 1 in the deal in a 3 team scenario.

No, they actually can't.

The Lakers can't take back more money than they sent out as they're right at the apron.

About the only Vooch + Zach swap that would seem to work in Trade Machine is:

Out: Zach, Vooch, Craig, Liddell, Phillips ($69,889,832)
In: Russell, Rui, Reaves, Vincent, Vanderbilt ($70,382,955)

Lakers stay under the 2nd apron, Bulls stay out of the tax. But it's pretty freaking hard to make any deal that doesn't look insane work when Zach and Vooch make $63 million together, given the Lakers don't have a lot of huge salaries themselves after LeBron and AD. You basically have to figure out a way to take every one of their tradable 8-figure salaries that aren't those two guys, which means the Bulls would need to sprinkle in some very small salaries for players they are trading away to make dollars and roster spots work.

I think AK might do that deal in so far as it brings in young, experienced talent (vs just picks).

[jnrjr79]

No, they actually can't.

The Lakers can't take back more money than they sent out as they're right at the apron.

About the only Vooch + Zach swap that would seem to work in Trade Machine is:

Out: Zach, Vooch, Craig, Liddell, Phillips ($69,889,832)
In: Russell, Rui, Reaves, Vincent, Vanderbilt ($70,382,955)

Lakers stay under the 2nd apron, Bulls stay out of the tax. But it's pretty freaking hard to make any deal that doesn't look insane work when Zach and Vooch make $63 million together, given the Lakers don't have a lot of huge salaries themselves after LeBron and AD. You basically have to figure out a way to take every one of their tradable 8-figure salaries that aren't those two guys, which means the Bulls would need to sprinkle in some very small salaries for players they are trading away to make dollars and roster spots work.

I think AK might do that deal in so far as it brings in young, experienced talent (vs just picks).

IMO, you should still be getting draft compensation back in addition to those players, but I didn't discuss it b/c I was just really thinking about salary matching/roster slots.

But yeah, it would be consistent with the broader trend of getting younger, but not being 100% committed to a draft-based rebuild. And maybe some of those Lakers guys could be included in future deals.

[Muzbar]

I believe they could add THT and Julian Philips to the trade without impacting it because the Lakers could take them into vet min exceptions. They could then release Carter and Duarte if you presume those would be the four players you'd let go anyway.

Not that I think such a trade is going to happen, just think that you could probably find a way around the roster size issue if necessary, you could also expand it somewhere so some other team takes a 2 for 1 in the deal in a 3 team scenario.

No, they actually can't.

The Lakers can't take back more money than they sent out as they're right at the apron.

About the only Vooch + Zach swap that would seem to work in Trade Machine is:

Out: Zach, Vooch, Craig, Liddell, Phillips ($69,889,832)
In: Russell, Rui, Reaves, Vincent, Vanderbilt ($70,382,955)

Lakers stay under the 2nd apron, Bulls stay out of the tax. But it's pretty freaking hard to make any deal that doesn't look insane work when Zach and Vooch make $63 million together, given the Lakers don't have a lot of huge salaries themselves after LeBron and AD. You basically have to figure out a way to take every one of their tradable 8-figure salaries that aren't those two guys, which means the Bulls would need to sprinkle in some very small salaries for players they are trading away to make dollars and roster spots work.

Did you mean THT? Liddell is a 2-way player.

I agree, the only real way to make a trade with the Lakers that involves both Vuc and Zach would have to include Reeves to help make salaries match, which the Lakers also may not be willing to do.

IMO it's going to be either/or regarding Vuc and Zach to LA.

[jnrjr79]

No, they actually can't.

The Lakers can't take back more money than they sent out as they're right at the apron.

About the only Vooch + Zach swap that would seem to work in Trade Machine is:

Out: Zach, Vooch, Craig, Liddell, Phillips ($69,889,832)
In: Russell, Rui, Reaves, Vincent, Vanderbilt ($70,382,955)

Lakers stay under the 2nd apron, Bulls stay out of the tax. But it's pretty freaking hard to make any deal that doesn't look insane work when Zach and Vooch make $63 million together, given the Lakers don't have a lot of huge salaries themselves after LeBron and AD. You basically have to figure out a way to take every one of their tradable 8-figure salaries that aren't those two guys, which means the Bulls would need to sprinkle in some very small salaries for players they are trading away to make dollars and roster spots work.

Did you mean THT? Liddell is a 2-way player.

I agree, the only real way to make a trade with the Lakers that involves both Vuc and Zach would have to include Reeves to help make salaries match, which the Lakers also may not be willing to do.

IMO it's going to be either/or regarding Vuc and Zach to LA.

Good point. ESPN Trade Machine lets you get away with it, but I forgot Liddell is on a 2-way.

[NZB2323]

68.6 TS% is insane. Vooch has never had a TS% for a season above 60% and he’s had 2 seasons below 50%.

The issue is he, like Zach, has flaws so when we say we’d like a 1st back in a trade for him, the team we’re trading for will point out his flaws, and with the new salary cap teams are less likely to take on the salaries of Vooch and Zach. In general the new salary cap makes it harder to make trades so another team may want to trade for Vooch or Zach but can’t put a deal together.

[Stratmaster]

I knew I would see the "DeRozan was holding Vuc back!" nonsense before I clicked on this thread and somehow I'm still disappointed.

I knew I would see all kinds of people who complained about roster construction and fit now deny that changing that construction and fit could possibly have any effect.

No one is saying DDR wasn't a great player, or that he did anything wrong. At least I'm not. But if you don't see the difference as far as space to work inside, lanes for attacking,and off ball cutting to the basket then you aren't paying attention.

If Vuc had been traded for a defensive, rim protecting Center the change in fit would have an impact on this team. Doesn't mean Vuc sucks or that he did anything wrong.

The nonsense has been that Vuc, DDR and Zach were holding back Pwill and Coby.

Can you clarify what you mean here? If DDR was a great player, but a poor fit, such that all those offensive benefits you identified are now happening, isn't that sort of by definition holding back the other players who do better under the new conditions?

No. It doesn't.

Pwill has neither the skill, nor the inclination, to take advantage of it. He's just not very good.

Coby has never had a conscience as far as getting his shots, and with him the narrative was that Lavine was holding him back. Lavine is still on the team. Nobody thinks Coby is being held back any more.

[Stratmaster]

68.6 TS% is insane. Vooch has never had a TS% for a season above 60% and he’s had 2 seasons below 50%.

The issue is he, like Zach, has flaws so when we say we’d like a 1st back in a trade for him, the team we’re trading for will point out his flaws, and with the new salary cap teams are less likely to take on the salaries of Vooch and Zach. In general the new salary cap makes it harder to make trades so another team may want to trade for Vooch or Zach but can’t put a deal together.

Every player in the league has flaws.

[Stratmaster]

I knew I would see the "DeRozan was holding Vuc back!" nonsense before I clicked on this thread and somehow I'm still disappointed.

I knew I would see all kinds of people who complained about roster construction and fit now deny that changing that construction and fit could possibly have any effect.

No one is saying DDR wasn't a great player, or that he did anything wrong. At least I'm not. But if you don't see the difference as far as space to work inside, lanes for attacking,and off ball cutting to the basket then you aren't paying attention.

If Vuc had been traded for a defensive, rim protecting Center the change in fit would have an impact on this team. Doesn't mean Vuc sucks or that he did anything wrong.

The nonsense has been that Vuc, DDR and Zach were holding back Pwill and Coby.

Can you clarify what you mean here? If DDR was a great player, but a poor fit, such that all those offensive benefits you identified are now happening, isn't that sort of by definition holding back the other players who do better under the new conditions?

To clarify further, the players who benefit most from DDR being gone are Vuc, and Zach. Vuc for the obvious things we are seeing when he is scoring inside. Zach because of the off ball cutting to the basket that is now available with the lanes and baseline not being clogged with defenders.

This is just a wild ass guess but I would bet Lavine has cut to the basket and received more passes for easy dunks and layups than in any other 12 game stretch of his tenure with the Bulls.

[jnrjr79]

I knew I would see all kinds of people who complained about roster construction and fit now deny that changing that construction and fit could possibly have any effect.

No one is saying DDR wasn't a great player, or that he did anything wrong. At least I'm not. But if you don't see the difference as far as space to work inside, lanes for attacking,and off ball cutting to the basket then you aren't paying attention.

If Vuc had been traded for a defensive, rim protecting Center the change in fit would have an impact on this team. Doesn't mean Vuc sucks or that he did anything wrong.

The nonsense has been that Vuc, DDR and Zach were holding back Pwill and Coby.

Can you clarify what you mean here? If DDR was a great player, but a poor fit, such that all those offensive benefits you identified are now happening, isn't that sort of by definition holding back the other players who do better under the new conditions?

No. It doesn't.

Pwill has neither the skill, nor the inclination, to take advantage of it. He's just not very good.

Coby has never had a conscience as far as getting his shots, and with him the narrative was that Lavine was holding him back. Lavine is still on the team. Nobody thinks Coby is being held back any more.

It's probably just semantics, but I still think what you're describing is a version of holding back, just in the "there's only one basketball" sense and if you can't give a player a bigger role because other guys need to eat, or that the other guys around them are not compatible in style, that it's a form of limitation.

To your broader point, I think you're probably right that Pat Will was just going to be what he was in any scenario, but I guess we can't actually know given he's never been given a huge scoring burden.

Re: Coby, I think he was probably being held up to an extent. He wasn't so held up last year because LaVine was out (and I think LaVine going out pretty inarguably accelerated Coby's development), while this year he's not very held up because DeMar is gone, so he can effectively maintain his co-lead-scorer role despite Zach being back.

[jnrjr79]

I knew I would see all kinds of people who complained about roster construction and fit now deny that changing that construction and fit could possibly have any effect.

No one is saying DDR wasn't a great player, or that he did anything wrong. At least I'm not. But if you don't see the difference as far as space to work inside, lanes for attacking,and off ball cutting to the basket then you aren't paying attention.

If Vuc had been traded for a defensive, rim protecting Center the change in fit would have an impact on this team. Doesn't mean Vuc sucks or that he did anything wrong.

The nonsense has been that Vuc, DDR and Zach were holding back Pwill and Coby.

Can you clarify what you mean here? If DDR was a great player, but a poor fit, such that all those offensive benefits you identified are now happening, isn't that sort of by definition holding back the other players who do better under the new conditions?

To clarify further, the players who benefit most from DDR being gone are Vuc, and Zach. Vuc for the obvious things we are seeing when he is scoring inside. Zach because of the off ball cutting to the basket that is now available with the lanes and baseline not being clogged with defenders.

This is just a wild ass guess but I would bet Lavine has cut to the basket and received more passes for easy dunks and layups than in any other 12 game stretch of his tenure with the Bulls.

I agree DDR being gone and the broader change in style benefits Zach's game. I don't know how much Vooch is really benefitting from DDR being gone. It mostly just seems he's hitting shots this year that he missed last year, but the shots are the same shots.

[Stratmaster]

Can you clarify what you mean here? If DDR was a great player, but a poor fit, such that all those offensive benefits you identified are now happening, isn't that sort of by definition holding back the other players who do better under the new conditions?

No. It doesn't.

Pwill has neither the skill, nor the inclination, to take advantage of it. He's just not very good.

Coby has never had a conscience as far as getting his shots, and with him the narrative was that Lavine was holding him back. Lavine is still on the team. Nobody thinks Coby is being held back any more.

It's probably just semantics, but I still think what you're describing is a version of holding back, just in the "there's only one basketball" sense and if you can't give a player a bigger role because other guys need to eat, or that the other guys around them are not compatible in style, that it's a form of limitation.

To your broader point, I think you're probably right that Pat Will was just going to be what he was in any scenario, but I guess we can't actually know given he's never been given a huge scoring burden.

Re: Coby, I think he was probably being held up to an extent. He wasn't so held up last year because LaVine was out (and I think LaVine going out pretty inarguably accelerated Coby's development), while this year he's not very held up because DeMar is gone, so he can effectively maintain his co-lead-scorer role despite Zach being back.

You are right. Semantics. Anyone can see the difference in opportunity inside the lane since DDR isn't here. Everybody can call that whatever they want. It's just silly that people are denying it.

[Stratmaster]

Can you clarify what you mean here? If DDR was a great player, but a poor fit, such that all those offensive benefits you identified are now happening, isn't that sort of by definition holding back the other players who do better under the new conditions?

To clarify further, the players who benefit most from DDR being gone are Vuc, and Zach. Vuc for the obvious things we are seeing when he is scoring inside. Zach because of the off ball cutting to the basket that is now available with the lanes and baseline not being clogged with defenders.

This is just a wild ass guess but I would bet Lavine has cut to the basket and received more passes for easy dunks and layups than in any other 12 game stretch of his tenure with the Bulls.

I agree DDR being gone and the broader change in style benefits Zach's game. I don't know how much Vooch is really benefitting from DDR being gone. It mostly just seems he's hitting shots this year that he missed last year, but the shots are the same shots.

Lol. Ok. I will explain it once more. I'll try to do it slightly different this time. Then you can tell me whether what I am saying makes sense and why or why not. Or people can just keep saying "they are the same shots as last year".

In the past, when Vuc got the ball in the paint and started to make a move, there was a help defender right on top of him. For example, he would start to go right, run into a defender, go left, run into another, and then hurry up a shot at the rim.

Now, he quite often gets the ball in a one on one situation with some space, is able to make post moves spinning off the hip pressure from the defender and scoring at the rim. The help defense takes long enough to get there so that he is not as hurried.

Just because 2 shots are both from the same spot on the shot chart doesn't make them equal in difficulty.

[NZB2323]

68.6 TS% is insane. Vooch has never had a TS% for a season above 60% and he’s had 2 seasons below 50%.

The issue is he, like Zach, has flaws so when we say we’d like a 1st back in a trade for him, the team we’re trading for will point out his flaws, and with the new salary cap teams are less likely to take on the salaries of Vooch and Zach. In general the new salary cap makes it harder to make trades so another team may want to trade for Vooch or Zach but can’t put a deal together.

Every player in the league has flaws.

Every player in the league doesn’t make $20+ million a year.

[jnrjr79]

To clarify further, the players who benefit most from DDR being gone are Vuc, and Zach. Vuc for the obvious things we are seeing when he is scoring inside. Zach because of the off ball cutting to the basket that is now available with the lanes and baseline not being clogged with defenders.

This is just a wild ass guess but I would bet Lavine has cut to the basket and received more passes for easy dunks and layups than in any other 12 game stretch of his tenure with the Bulls.

I agree DDR being gone and the broader change in style benefits Zach's game. I don't know how much Vooch is really benefitting from DDR being gone. It mostly just seems he's hitting shots this year that he missed last year, but the shots are the same shots.

Lol. Ok. I will explain it once more. I'll try to do it slightly different this time. Then you can tell me whether what I am saying makes sense and why or why not. Or people can just keep saying "they are the same shots as last year".

In the past, when Vuc got the ball in the paint and started to make a move, there was a help defender right on top of him. For example, he would start to go right, run into a defender, go left, run into another, and then hurry up a shot at the rim.

Now, he quite often gets the ball in a one on one situation with some space, is able to make post moves spinning off the hip pressure from the defender and scoring at the rim. The help defense takes long enough to get there so that he is not as hurried.

Just because 2 shots are both from the same spot on the shot chart doesn't make them equal in difficulty.

I get your theory, I'm just not sure that it's true (I'm not saying it's not - I just haven't been able to watch Vooch play and conclude "wow, these interior looks are so much easier now," but I guess it could be the case).

I don't think DDR has anything to do with Vooch's biggest area of improvement - 3-point shooting. He had a lot of open looks last year and still has them, though perhaps defenses will need to respect it more if he keeps hitting at a clip like this.

[Stratmaster]

I agree DDR being gone and the broader change in style benefits Zach's game. I don't know how much Vooch is really benefitting from DDR being gone. It mostly just seems he's hitting shots this year that he missed last year, but the shots are the same shots.

Lol. Ok. I will explain it once more. I'll try to do it slightly different this time. Then you can tell me whether what I am saying makes sense and why or why not. Or people can just keep saying "they are the same shots as last year".

In the past, when Vuc got the ball in the paint and started to make a move, there was a help defender right on top of him. For example, he would start to go right, run into a defender, go left, run into another, and then hurry up a shot at the rim.

Now, he quite often gets the ball in a one on one situation with some space, is able to make post moves spinning off the hip pressure from the defender and scoring at the rim. The help defense takes long enough to get there so that he is not as hurried.

Just because 2 shots are both from the same spot on the shot chart doesn't make them equal in difficulty.

I get your theory, I'm just not sure that it's true (I'm not saying it's not - I just haven't been able to watch Vooch play and conclude "wow, these interior looks are so much easier now," but I guess it could be the case).

I don't think DDR has anything to do with Vooch's biggest area of improvement - 3-point shooting. He had a lot of open looks last year and still has them, though perhaps defenses will need to respect it more if he keeps hitting at a clip like this.

I agree on the 3 point shooting. Nobody was keeping him from hitting 3's last season except himself.

[dougthonus]

I get your theory, I'm just not sure that it's true (I'm not saying it's not - I just haven't been able to watch Vooch play and conclude "wow, these interior looks are so much easier now," but I guess it could be the case).

I don't think DDR has anything to do with Vooch's biggest area of improvement - 3-point shooting. He had a lot of open looks last year and still has them, though perhaps defenses will need to respect it more if he keeps hitting at a clip like this.

I don't think the interior looks are any better. He had a crap ton of good looks last year on the interior and was missing them. He regularly missed bunnies on mismatches in single coverage last year.

This year, he's making the easy ones, he's making hard ones, he's making everything. I think he's just a guy who needs a lot of confidence to perform, and this year he has it for whatever reason.

There could be minor differences in the way the game is played that give him more confidence, maybe he had paranoia that guys were going to swarm him last year (even though they didn't) and he knows the spacing is better this year so he'll have more time.

I don't know, but I think trying to pin a player's changes on a different player being there or not when it doesn't directly change the number of minutes played is almost always a tertiary reason for changes.

[dougthonus]

Side note, saw this on blue sky:

Has a player in his 14th-season ever won the most improved player award?

Nikola Vučević, through 16 games:

•FG%, 58.1
Previous career-high, 52.3

•3P%, 46.5
Previous career-high, 40.6

•TS%, 67.3
Previous career-high, 59.4

•2PFG%, 63.5
Previous career-high, 59.4

[League Circles]

Side note, saw this on blue sky:

Has a player in his 14th-season ever won the most improved player award?

Nikola Vučević, through 16 games:

•FG%, 58.1
Previous career-high, 52.3

•3P%, 46.5
Previous career-high, 40.6

•TS%, 67.3
Previous career-high, 59.4

•2PFG%, 63.5
Previous career-high, 59.4

Would be hilarious if it happened. I expected Vuc to improve offensively this year but not like this. I agree with you and others that he will likely not stay this hot, and frankly it doesn't matter that much that he is due to how atrocious his defense is, but it's mildly fun to watch.

[Infinity2152]

I believe they could add THT and Julian Philips to the trade without impacting it because the Lakers could take them into vet min exceptions. They could then release Carter and Duarte if you presume those would be the four players you'd let go anyway.

Not that I think such a trade is going to happen, just think that you could probably find a way around the roster size issue if necessary, you could also expand it somewhere so some other team takes a 2 for 1 in the deal in a 3 team scenario.

No, they actually can't.

The Lakers can't take back more money than they sent out as they're right at the apron.

About the only Vooch + Zach swap that would seem to work in Trade Machine is:

Out: Zach, Vooch, Craig, Liddell, Phillips ($69,889,832)
In: Russell, Rui, Reaves, Vincent, Vanderbilt ($70,382,955)

Lakers stay under the 2nd apron, Bulls stay out of the tax. But it's pretty freaking hard to make any deal that doesn't look insane work when Zach and Vooch make $63 million together, given the Lakers don't have a lot of huge salaries themselves after LeBron and AD. You basically have to figure out a way to take every one of their tradable 8-figure salaries that aren't those two guys, which means the Bulls would need to sprinkle in some very small salaries for players they are trading away to make dollars and roster spots work.

Like this trade a lot for both teams. Pat can move to SF, we'll have two legit PF's maybe even Matas can move too. Would love to move a piece for another young center after that, and would like some draft compensation. We're giving up the two best players, but the young return is good and Russell's expiring. Might even be able to flip him back out for expirings and a pick.

[kodo]

Would love MIP for Vuc, even a nomination.

I think the spirit of the award is for young players though, who have never been at that level previously. I remember a previous MIP where a vet had a great comeback and voters said the award is not for vets who fell off a cliff and then went back to normal.