How would you rate the defenders on this team?

[GoBlue72391]

This is one of the worst defensive rosters I've ever seen and so far the results seem to reflect that. Our starting lineup has literally one consistently competent defender. It's crazy.

Anyway, here's my rankings. I broke them down into categories to make things easier. My ranking system is hardly scientific, so take that into consideration. I'm going strictly off the eye test.

I didn't list THT or Duarte because I haven't seen much of them and haven't paid attention to their defense when they have played.

Elite
N/A

Good
Lonzo
Before he got injured I would have placed him firmly in the Elite section.

Pat
I feel like I'm slightly overrating him because his being surrounded by poor defenders makes his positive defense stand out more.

Above Average
Ayo
He's been pretty bad at times but pretty good at other times. He usually puts in a good effort.

Smith
He's ok, might be another guy I'm slightly overrating due to Vuc being the other big to compare him to.

Craig
He's a solid and steady vet.

Terry
He could possibly move up to the Good section some day with more experience and a bigger role.

Average
Matas
Being an average defender with his frailness and lack of experience is a pretty big accomplishment, and his defensive ceiling is pretty damn high. Maybe slightly overrating his D due to his recent performances.

Zach
Good on-ball guy but his focus, effort, and team D is often lacking.

Phillips
Decent, but I believe he was considered one of the best defenders in his draft class and I definitely haven't seen anything to warrant that yet.

Carter
He was viewed as a good defender when we signed him, but he hasn't really stood out to me other than he's undersized.

Poor
Coby
A lot of people were talking about how much he improved his defense over the past couple years, and perhaps he did, but he's still pretty damn bad.

Awful
Vuc
Self-explanatory.

Giddey
Also self-explanatory.

[dougthonus]

I don't think you have anyone on this list too low.

I'd move:
Pat down 2 to average
Ayo down 1 to average
Smith down 1 to average
Craig down 1-2 to average/below average (but haven't seen enough to really gauge this year)
Zach down 1 to below average (though I think he can dial it into average or even above average in moments when he focuses)

Maybe Matas down 1 to below average overall, he's sort of in the typical rookie with good defensive potential state of doing something really well one second and terrible the next.

[kodo]

That's a tough one to answer because defense these days is so team dependent, you're not allowed to lock anyone up on the perimeter like Jordan did. Stopping a ballhandler from moving to their intended destination is by definition a foul. So much of today's defense is help rotation since you're not allowed to lock anyone up, and our center isn't really played for his defense. The Bulls instead pre-rotate the corner defenders, and our perimeter guys just aren't big enough to do much in the paint without fouling.

But the metrics of Ayo as a defender are a lot worse than his reputation, just watching the games this season it matches my eye test. We've obviously had a lot of PGs/combo guards put up huge #s on us, and Ayo takes his turn defending them like all the other guards in our switch defense.

Defensive EPM
White: -1.9
Lavine: -0.5
Giddey: -1.7
Patrick: -1.0
Ayo: -1.6

Defensive Rating
White: 120
Lavine: 120
Giddey: 119
Patrick: 119
Ayo: 122

By D.EPM Ayo is the same as Giddey, and I don't think anyone thinks of Giddey as a good defender.
The rating #s are especially odd because Ayo comes on when Giddey goes off, if Ayo was a great defender and Giddey a league worst, our team defense should skyrocket when Ayo subs in for him. Instead it gets worse.
EG, when Caruso subbed in for our bad defenders last year our defense got massively better at 113.

[League Circles]

Good:
Patrick
Ayo
Terry
Ball (really hard to say. He was elite when he last played regularly)

Above Average:
Craig
Phillips

Average:
Coby
Smith
Matas

Below Average:
Zach
Carter
THT (can't say I've watched his D closely)

Bad:
Vuc
Giddey

No idea about Duarte.

It's absolutely **** hilarious that Dalen Terry might be our best defender.

[League Circles]

Vuc is really off the charts on the bad end though. I wouldn't be surprised if half of the NCAA centers would be better as NBA defenders right now than he is.

[GoBlue72391]

I don't think you have anyone on this list too low.

I'd move:
Pat down 2 to average
Ayo down 1 to average
Smith down 1 to average
Craig down 1-2 to average/below average (but haven't seen enough to really gauge this year)
Zach down 1 to below average (though I think he can dial it into average or even above average in moments when he focuses)

Maybe Matas down 1 to below average overall, he's sort of in the typical rookie with good defensive potential state of doing something really well one second and terrible the next.

Fair. I felt like I was overrating a few guys anyway.

[GoBlue72391]

Good:
Patrick
Ayo
Terry
Ball (really hard to say. He was elite when he last played regularly)

Above Average:
Craig
Phillips

Average:
Coby
Smith
Matas

Below Average:
Zach
Carter
THT (can't say I've watched his D closely)

Bad:
Vuc
Giddey

No idea about Duarte.

It's absolutely **** hilarious that Dalen Terry might be our best defender.

I don't think there's any world where Coby is a better defender than Zach, but that's the only nitpick I have.

[GoBlue72391]

That's a tough one to answer because defense these days is so team dependent, you're not allowed to lock anyone up on the perimeter like Jordan did. Stopping a ballhandler from moving to their intended destination is by definition a foul. So much of today's defense is help rotation since you're not allowed to lock anyone up, and our center isn't really played for his defense. The Bulls instead pre-rotate the corner defenders, and our perimeter guys just aren't big enough to do much in the paint without fouling.

But the metrics of Ayo as a defender are a lot worse than his reputation, just watching the games this season it matches my eye test. We've obviously had a lot of PGs/combo guards put up huge #s on us, and Ayo takes his turn defending them like all the other guards in our switch defense.

Defensive EPM
White: -1.9
Lavine: -0.5
Giddey: -1.7
Patrick: -1.0
Ayo: -1.6

Defensive Rating
White: 120
Lavine: 120
Giddey: 119
Patrick: 119
Ayo: 122

By D.EPM Ayo is the same as Giddey, and I don't think anyone thinks of Giddey as a good defender.
The rating #s are especially odd because Ayo comes on when Giddey goes off, if Ayo was a great defender and Giddey a league worst, our team defense should skyrocket when Ayo subs in for him. Instead it gets worse.
EG, when Caruso subbed in for our bad defenders last year our defense got massively better at 113.

Yeah, Ayo has been pretty damn bad on defense this year and if I was rating them strictly off just this season then he would be way down the list, but I also took into consideration their last couple of seasons. I didn't want to be too overly reactive to a 5th of a season.

[GoBlue72391]

Vuc is really off the charts on the bad end though. I wouldn't be surprised if half of the NCAA centers would be better as NBA defenders right now than he is.

Ehh, outside of the top conferences a ton of NCAA bigs are like 6'6", but they're definitely more mobile and athletic than him.

[League Circles]

Good:
Patrick
Ayo
Terry
Ball (really hard to say. He was elite when he last played regularly)

Above Average:
Craig
Phillips

Average:
Coby
Smith
Matas

Below Average:
Zach
Carter
THT (can't say I've watched his D closely)

Bad:
Vuc
Giddey

No idea about Duarte.

It's absolutely **** hilarious that Dalen Terry might be our best defender.

I don't think there's any world where Coby is a better defender than Zach, but that's the only nitpick I have.

I don't have strong opinions on it. Zach has better lateral quickness but I feel Coby plays notably harder / more competitively.

[League Circles]

Vuc is really off the charts on the bad end though. I wouldn't be surprised if half of the NCAA centers would be better as NBA defenders right now than he is.

Ehh, outside of the top conferences a ton of NCAA bigs are like 6'6", but they're definitely more mobile and athletic than him.

They probably also occasionally jump. Vuc's physical traits are poor, but his Carlos Boozer-esque matador defense..... the utter unwillingness to challenge almost any shots, is absolutely disgusting.

[GoBlue72391]

Vuc is really off the charts on the bad end though. I wouldn't be surprised if half of the NCAA centers would be better as NBA defenders right now than he is.

Ehh, outside of the top conferences a ton of NCAA bigs are like 6'6", but they're definitely more mobile and athletic than him.

They probably also occasionally jump. Vuc's physical traits are poor, but his Carlos Boozer-esque matador defense..... the utter unwillingness to challenge almost any shots, is absolutely disgusting.

You're not wrong and I'm definitely not defending Vuc's defense, I just think the lack of size of NCAA D1 big men would get eaten alive in the NBA.

Google's AI says the average height of a D1 C is just under 6'5". Not sure if that's true, but if it is, then that's basically Javonte Green starting and playing at C for the majority of the game, although the majority of those 6'5" NCAA bigs are significantly less athletic than Javonte.

[ChettheJet]

Good:
Patrick
Ayo
Terry
Ball (really hard to say. He was elite when he last played regularly)

Above Average:
Craig
Phillips

Average:
Coby
Smith
Matas

Below Average:
Zach
Carter
THT (can't say I've watched his D closely)

Bad:
Vuc
Giddey

No idea about Duarte.

It's absolutely **** hilarious that Dalen Terry might be our best defender.

I think that's close

This year leaving the past in the past. People are down on Ayo, he's playing a lot of SF so he's facing better scorers at times and usually someone bigger. With Patrick out he started some games with Lavine up front, so which one of them was the PF? It's Kirk Hinrich playing PF again. Let's get him back to a guard spot. Zach is at the 3 so not a SG he's facing SFs and he's not as string as most.

Craig and Philips could maybe provide better defense but somebody has to sit and they don't score as well as the guys that would need to sit. Terry is not helpful on offense and the Bulls can't afford to have a non shooter on the floor, the other 4 aren't great to carry someone. Giddey rebounds well for a PG, if trades do ever happen and Lonzo is healthy I could see Ball/White and Giddey playing the SF as a sort of a point forward.

I know they didn't make enough trades to suit anyone, including me, but you've got to have partners. The changed a few players, do more before and at the deadline and then more next summer. Now is basically decision time on who is here and where they go next.

I would not object to a quiet search being made now for a new VP and GM and let that be the first move when the season ends. I would listen to candidates about who they like that's here now and who needs to go. Anybody considering the job does the interview seeing the FRP going to SAS and that PORT pick being just smoke. So no awesome promises, the first year on the job just steps to clear cap space and search for picks. .

[HomoSapien]

Ayo is only elite on defense against Trae Young and then more or less average or slightly above against everyone else. I don’t fully get it because at times it feels like he should be a lockdown defender but just isn’t.

[ImSlower]

I tend to agree with doug here. The Bulls have the singular worst defense in the league as of this afternoon. We're giving up a full point a game more than Washington, and almost *20* points a game more than the top two defenses (Orlando and OKC).

If the sum total is Worst In The League, I have a hard time placing half the roster at Average or Above. I agree that Giddey and Vucevic are catastrophically bad together. Coby or LaVine would be the worst starting defenders on a bunch of other teams, in my eyes. Smith has some big blocks, but he's getting routinely beaten - just not as much as Vooch. Ball is hard to discuss without colossal "Ifs" relating to his health. And Williams - well I just can't stand him more than nearly any poster here, so my opinions on him are compromised. Basically, I don't think he's impressive on D at all other than "He guards their 1A star who still gets 30+".

[burlydee]

Elite - N/A

Good - Pat - he's the Bulls best and most versatile defender. Not a shut down defender by any means but generally takes the toughest forward matchup from Giannis to Luka.

Terry - really good team defender, plays with a lot of effort. Needs to get a lot stronger to play against bigger players. A little foul prone now.

Ayo - the 2nd best on-ball defender on the Bulls behind Terry imo. Can be really bad off the ball though and doesn't seemingly lock in at all times

Average

Craig - just on the 2nd half of his career. Could really defend a few years ago, but doesn't move his feet as well now. Fouls a lot too.

Phillips - I think he spends most of his time defending out of position. Reminds me a lot of Derrick Jones Jr when he was with the Bulls. He needs to be defending 2s and 3s, not 4s. Too weak for that. Really his on the court impact is probably below average but since he's usually guarding someone 2 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier, I'll give him a pass.

Ball - hard to say but doesn't move his feet like he used too. Also seemingly scared of contact now.

Below Average

Lavine - he can play decent on ball defense, particularly against smaller guards, when engaged. Bad off the ball defender, Bad wing defender. Gets overpowered and gives up far too often.

Carter - tries hard but he's too small.

Smith - hit the gym young man. Decent help defender. Haven't seen enough of him matched up with top line guys to say. Generally want my bigs to be more impactful

Bad

Coby - Not good on ball or going over screens. Just overall bad technique. Short arms, weirdly bad hands on D. Like allergic to deflections bad.

Matas - not strong enough yet and seemingly falling for every shot fake ever created but getting better. Hopefully he'll be below average by end of season.

Terrible

Vuc - generally knows where to be but can't get there. B/c of the way the team is constructed, his bad defense is magnified. Just doesn't impact other teams in the paint much at all. Has adopted a drop so far back anyone can hit a 12 footer but also manages not to contest at the rim somehow.

Giddey - just really slow feet and bad awareness. Needs to get stronger. His best defensive attribute is rebounding. Seemingly scared of picks. I've never seen someone trip playing defense more.

[GuardianEnzo]

If Smith were really “above average” as a defender he’d be making a lot more money and starting for a good team. He’s better than Vooch (low bar) because at least he’s mobile and can rim protect a bit. But average is probably a touch charitable for him.

[MrSparkle]

The starting lineup is one of the worst defensive teams I’ve ever seen, but TBH, it’s not much different than the past few years with Demar in Giddey’s place. To be entirely honest, they’re a wash. They both basically have great hands, good height, good footwork, terrible lateral movement, mediocre wingspan.

Whatever positives Pat brings, his overall IQ/intensity/passiveness is a net negative IMO. No surprise we played with way more pep with really undersized guys like Javonte or f’ing Caruso at PF.

A rim protector would be a huge boost. A more consistent, alert PF over Pat would be good too.

Our bench on the other hand is a perfectly fine defensive squad (atleast potentially). In my book they can be top-10 def rated if they come together. Matas, Jalen, Dalen, Phillips need more time though. Problem is that’s a bench.

[Pipp33]

Having Vuc as the C hurts this team more than anything. Put a GOOD defensive C on the court and that helps cover a some of the other player's issues.

Yes, Giddey is not a good defender, but if he had a good wing and C defender on the court, that would assist them team greatly.

I also feel that Giddey get's scapegoated for defensive errors by the coach, that others do not, for the same mistakes.

As a squad, there's nothing to build a defensive identity on. PWill is solid to good, but looks better because he's surrounded by average defenders at best.