AKME stands pat

[dice]

People are mad that a leader of a billion-dollar company didn't come out and say they were trying to lose on purpose and didn't give away his assets for pennies on the dollar.

this is why groupthink is dangerous.

vuc:

-35 years old (next year)
-20 mil salary
-little defense
-every other year shooting

is that really much of an asset? shouldn't we be willing to let that go for nothing in the name of the overall objective?

[Dominator83]

I always argued that the 2014 Spurs and 2010 Mavs also met this team archetype. So I'd say it's worked 3 times in the last 20 years, and every other title winner involved enormous luck of getting a generational talent. That's why I think it's the most viable model - because you can actually kind of will it into being, versus relying on unique luck.

The 2014 Spurs with 3 future HOF or the 2010 Mavs with 2?

The Spurs had a very old Manu and Duncan, a 12 ppg Kawhi, and yes a still good Parker. None of those guys played like HOF players that year. They had one all star and nobody in the top 11 of MVP voting.

The Mavs had a 37 year old Jason Kidd shooting 36% from the field and their best player was a 32 year old 2nd team all NBA guy who NO ONE thought was a top 2 or 3 PF in the league before or after. He was 6th in MVP voting. That was an ensemble title like the Spurs and Pistons teams I mentioned.

But yeah, supposedly over the hill guys are actually a low key plausible way to get good players to compete with. Underutilized in the market for sure.

Nobody on this team will ever sniff being nearly as good as 2010-11 Dirk.

[Dominator83]

I honestly cannot believe he said that you can win a title without a star. Does he think he’s in a baseball FO? What an absolute joke.

The last team to win a championship without a bonafide superstar was the Ben Wallace/Rip Hamilton/Chauncey Billup's Detroit Pistons team or am I missing another team?

The Bulls FO one job in life is to continue to stoke the fire of the Bulls fan civil war. Which admittedly is more entertaining than the product on the court.

Do better Bulls FO.

Winning with no legit star is extremely difficult. But you can with one. However, if you win with one don’t expect multiple titles. But one star has been done in relatively recent memory.

Giannis (Bucks), Kawhi (Raptors), Dirk (Mavs), etc.

No Jokic ?!

But yea, it CAN be done with 1 superstar, but has to be a top notch player. And then you need the next 6-7 guys to be "very good players". To which we have none. We would still suck even if we swapped out Vuc for Jokic. Well maybe not "suck". Jokic is so good he can probably get this team to round 2 by himself. But he certainly ain't going all the way here.

[Dez]

People are mad that a leader of a billion-dollar company didn't come out and say they were trying to lose on purpose and didn't give away his assets for pennies on the dollar.

this is why groupthink is dangerous.

vuc:

-35 years old (next year)
-20 mil salary
-little defense
-every other year shooting

is that really much of an asset? shouldn't we be willing to let that go for nothing in the name of the overall objective?

It's a waste of time, he doesn’t live in reality.

Also "little defense" is incredibly generous.

[Wingy]

And if the only trades available were ones that required to give up assets to dump contracts you guys would be doubly losing your s***....

I'm fairly certain most of you have no idea what you're talking about. Neither do I. But that's kind of the point.

He could’ve made trades in the offseason or early season to offload guys. Trying to wring out unrealistic returns for every single player until the last minute, all while decreasing the odds at getting a top prospect.

Still zero recognition of the bigger picture.

No one of note is going to want our cap space that he’s trying to open unless some stud young player is already in place. Everything now is about guys resigning for the extra year, then asking out via trade.

What’s most likely to happen out of all this is that he’s just going to acquire another 2nd rate star like DeMar using future picks. Rinse and repeat.

[Guru]

People are mad that a leader of a billion-dollar company didn't come out and say they were trying to lose on purpose and didn't give away his assets for pennies on the dollar.

this is why groupthink is dangerous.

vuc:

-35 years old (next year)
-20 mil salary
-little defense
-every other year shooting

is that really much of an asset? shouldn't we be willing to let that go for nothing in the name of the overall objective?

I feel like you might be engaging in one (or more) of the classical cognitive distortions: Discounting the positive

Vuc is playing as well as he has played in maybe 6-7 years? He's shooting well. He's passing well. He's rebounding at a number that puts him top 10 in the NBA. He's calling players-only meetings and a clear leader on a team without many.

There is almost a guarantee that we will get at least what was offered already this offseason making a trade now is not very prudent especially if you believe as, is the case with AK, that the climate will be better in the Summer.

[jnrjr79]

People are mad that a leader of a billion-dollar company didn't come out and say they were trying to lose on purpose and didn't give away his assets for pennies on the dollar.

this is why groupthink is dangerous.

vuc:

-35 years old (next year)
-20 mil salary
-little defense
-every other year shooting

is that really much of an asset? shouldn't we be willing to let that go for nothing in the name of the overall objective?

I wish there had been some reporting on the options available. If there were deals where you weren’t takin on salary beyond next year and got nothing more than a 2nd or two, that’d be fine with me. I understand not trading him if the contract you would take would extend past next season.

[jump]

It seems AK had two very realistic trade possibilities with Vuc - the Lakers and the Warriors. The Doncic trade came out of nowhere, and that certainly ended any Lakers' interest. No way for anyone to predict or anticipate that. The Warriors were very interested, but managed to put together a package for Butler, who everyone thought was going to end up in Phoenix. The second option vanished with that one. Thus, the Bulls still have Vuc. I think it's as simple as that.

[jump]

I also think AK will unload Vuc this summer, likely at a desperation price. Whether he was traded this week or in June doesn't much matter. What only matters is for AK and BD to make sure Vuc doesn't win us too many games to move us out of the lottery, or even out of the bottom 10. I still believe Philly will pass us up in the standings. I'm hoping the 8th or 7th pic will give us a great chance to land in the top 4.

[dougthonus]

It seems AK had two very realistic trade possibilities with Vuc - the Lakers and the Warriors. The Doncic trade came out of nowhere, and that certainly ended any Lakers' interest. No way for anyone to predict or anticipate that. The Warriors were very interested, but managed to put together a package for Butler, who everyone thought was going to end up in Phoenix. The second option vanished with that one. Thus, the Bulls still have Vuc. I think it's as simple as that.

I would bet they could have gotten off Vuc's money with the Warriors still, just not gotten any assets back. I think we didn't want to just get off his money though. You can argue whether that is reasonable or not as a viewpoint, and obviously just my guess.

I would guess the Warriors would have done Looney + Payton for Vuc which is just two expirings for him and works under the cap.

[jump]

Looney and GPII would have been a decent return, if indeed that was offered. But would the Warriors still have had any depth, let alone enough players to field? The way KC's report was worded, something like they couldn't "find a workable construction" for the trade, makes it sound like it was more complicated than just two expiring contracts for Vuc. But, based on history, we will probably trade him for less than that this summer.

[kodo]

I do think Vuc is a tough trade. He's clearly been great on offense this year, but it's a severe outlier and GMs smartly don't take half season outliers into as much account on 35 year olds.

The other issue is that when GMs shop for centers at the deadline, they don't want a center to be taking passing & 3P shots away from their top options. So he'll take 3P shots instead of just giving the ball to Steph? He'll take assist plays instead of Lebron? Most want a center that contributes without the ball in their hands at all, that means lob finisher & defenders. Vuc isn't either. Mark Williams was effectively traded for 3 1st round picks (if Knecht = 1st rounder). We heard Vuc's market value was 2nd rounder(s).

And the cherry on top is that he's crashing back to his norm as a stretch 5, the one role where you could see a team giving up assets for him. 34% from 3 since Dec 1st, 29% from 3 since Jan 1st. It's clearly a case of hot shooting to start the season.

We have no young center prospects, so he's not taking minutes away from anyone like Matas. That's also a crime by AK but separate topic.

Whatever 2nd rounders Vuc would have gotten at the deadline probably doesn't mean much. The traded picks part of a rebuild generally don't mean much. If OKC is your model, the stash of picks meant close to nothing.
SGA + Jalen from the PG13 trade. Chet = tanked their own pick. Giddey = tanked their own pick. Lu Dort = 2-way. Hartenstein = FA signing. The picks they traded for just filled out their roleplayers.

[prolific passer]

Vuc at this point in time is probably a backup big who can somebody a decent amount of scoring and rebounding off the bench even with that contract.

Akme I think still has a little hope of making a run for the play-in which is why they didn't move on from Vuc, Lonzo, Coby, and Pat.

Once again no direction.

[Hangtime84]

It seems AK had two very realistic trade possibilities with Vuc - the Lakers and the Warriors. The Doncic trade came out of nowhere, and that certainly ended any Lakers' interest. No way for anyone to predict or anticipate that. The Warriors were very interested, but managed to put together a package for Butler, who everyone thought was going to end up in Phoenix. The second option vanished with that one. Thus, the Bulls still have Vuc. I think it's as simple as that.

I feel like like the Lakers in the Mark Williams acquisition out bided someone for him. Warriors were probably trying to get Jimmy on cheaper number "hense the stall reports" and acquire Vuc.

[jump]

I think with AD on the team, Vuc made sense. But without AD, you need a C who can protect the rim better. I guess Williams can do that.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

I'm finding it difficult to muster the anger some of you have.

First off, characterizing a deadline where we made the biggest trade we've made in four years as "standing pat" seems wrong to me.

Two, there's been a lot of criticism of the Zach return, but did you see what the Kings got? They got Zach, three firsts, and three seconds. That means they required three firsts and three seconds as compensation for taking on that contract, that Zach was valued that much less than Fox. And you think we should've gotten more than we got? You think it would've been more a year ago when every report was that they couldn't find a taker?

Three, as far as the goal for the remainder of the season...I know what AKME said at the presser, but I don't believe it. I don't believe you trade Zach midseason for the return they got if your objective is to squeak into the playoffs at all costs.

I too think tanking is the right move, and I too was hoping we'd move Vuc at the deadline. But right now, we have the eighth worst record in the NBA, and the bottom four teams are not catchable, they're too far behind us. That means, realistically, fifth worst is the best we could do from a tanking perspective, and with Zach gone, we could still fall. Also keep in mind that Philly is only 1.5 games behind us and if Embiid gets healthy and they get their crap together, they could easily pass us and push us up one draft slot, and that would makes us #7.

I hope I do not come across as an AKME apologist because I have been very frustrated with a number of things they've done...the seeming paralysis at multiple deadlines/offseasons, the refusal to get a real PF, the PatBev signing in 2023 that cost us a shot at Wemby(absolutely hated that). But I just am not feeling the anger right now.

[greenwing]

The last team to win a championship without a bonafide superstar was the Ben Wallace/Rip Hamilton/Chauncey Billup's Detroit Pistons team or am I missing another team?

The Bulls FO one job in life is to continue to stoke the fire of the Bulls fan civil war. Which admittedly is more entertaining than the product on the court.

Do better Bulls FO.

Winning with no legit star is extremely difficult. But you can with one. However, if you win with one don’t expect multiple titles. But one star has been done in relatively recent memory.

Giannis (Bucks), Kawhi (Raptors), Dirk (Mavs), etc.

No Jokic ?!

But yea, it CAN be done with 1 superstar, but has to be a top notch player. And then you need the next 6-7 guys to be "very good players". To which we have none. We would still suck even if we swapped out Vuc for Jokic. Well maybe not "suck". Jokic is so good he can probably get this team to round 2 by himself. But he certainly ain't going all the way here.

Jokic is another good example. I think as our roster currently stands, Coby has a shot to return to his all-star caliber form with Zach no longer on the roster. I would also expect Giddey's numbers to also significantly improve now that he will have more touches. Matas is the big X factor here. He has the most star potential on the roster. His scoring has majorly improved over the past five games as he's been given more playing time. If he develops a consistent jumper, he's going to be very difficult to guard. He does literally everything well besides shooting and he has good form on his shot. If he can elevate his game, our rebuild should be accelerated.

[Dominator83]

And if the only trades available were ones that required to give up assets to dump contracts you guys would be doubly losing your s***....

I'm fairly certain most of you have no idea what you're talking about. Neither do I. But that's kind of the point.

He could’ve made trades in the offseason or early season to offload guys. Trying to wring out unrealistic returns for every single player until the last minute, all while decreasing the odds at getting a top prospect.

Still zero recognition of the bigger picture.

No one of note is going to want our cap space that he’s trying to open unless some stud young player is already in place. Everything now is about guys resigning for the extra year, then asking out via trade.

What’s most likely to happen out of all this is that he’s just going to acquire another 2nd rate star like DeMar using future picks. Rinse and repeat.

Paul george and Julius randle come on down

The combined price will be another 3 FRPs in a 5 year span

[Dominator83]

Winning with no legit star is extremely difficult. But you can with one. However, if you win with one don’t expect multiple titles. But one star has been done in relatively recent memory.

Giannis (Bucks), Kawhi (Raptors), Dirk (Mavs), etc.

No Jokic ?!

But yea, it CAN be done with 1 superstar, but has to be a top notch player. And then you need the next 6-7 guys to be "very good players". To which we have none. We would still suck even if we swapped out Vuc for Jokic. Well maybe not "suck". Jokic is so good he can probably get this team to round 2 by himself. But he certainly ain't going all the way here.

Jokic is another good example. I think as our roster currently stands, Coby has a shot to return to his all-star caliber form with Zach no longer on the roster. I would also expect Giddey's numbers to also significantly improve now that he will have more touches. Matas is the big X factor here. He has the most star potential on the roster. His scoring has majorly improved over the past five games as he's been given more playing time. If he develops a consistent jumper, he's going to be very difficult to guard. He does literally everything well besides shooting and he has good form on his shot. If he can elevate his game, our rebuild should be accelerated.

Problem is, nobody on this roster has even close to the potential to be a Jokic, Giannis, or a prime Kawhi. Hell, we don't even have anyone with the potential of.... this years Zach lavine

We gotta be 30th in the league in terms of futures. We currently have no players with superstar potential, very little draft capital/positioning to give us much hope to get that guy, and no assets to get one via trade (unless we were the Lakers). Were the #1 seed in NBA hell, while also being 27 years removed from our last championship. No wonder nobody cares anymore

[ChiefILL53]

I suppose he's talking about the 04 Detroit Pistons model. The only issue is, how many very good players do we currently have?

That pistons team has 2 HoF in the starting five and the other 3 were great players. I wouldnt even say it was 9-10 players on that team, really like 6-7.

To answer your question, we have MAYBE two really good players depending on views on Vooch and Coby? It's depressing as a fan when you realize your favorite team is run, seemingly top down, by idiots. After Virginia passed away I saw people asking how old Jerry is lmfao.

Billups is only in the HOF because they won a championship. If you erase that season, I don't see how he'd make it. Regardless, I think it's fair to say that they had zero franchise players. We can all guess what AKME means by "very good", but to me it probably falls into the borderline All-Star category. Wallace was sort of in a category of his own, but sort of closer to that Rodman/Noah mold of a building block.

It's easy to forget how deep that Pistons team was. Outside of their starting five they had:

Mehmet Okur who left and immediately became a bonafide starter.
Corliss Williamson who was just two seasons removed from winning 6th Man of the Year.
Lindsey Hunter who was older at this point, but not far removed from being their starting point guard.
Mike James was a midseason addition, and had started every game for the Celtics before joining them.

You also had Elden Campbell rounding out the roster in the twilight of his career, but still not far removed from being a starter.

Again, very good is subjective but I consider that team to easily be 9 deep, with several of those bench players being starter quality.

You know what? You're right. I was counting the starting 5, Okur, and Atkins. I had to go back and look at the stats, I hadnt realized Corliss won the 6MOY two years prior (or was as good as he was), or that James was starting for the Celtics. I knew Hunter and Campbell were both old, but didnt realize they were actually pretty solid. So, you're right. That team was indeed deeper than what I was thinking.