Bulls vs Raptors 7pm CT Feb. 28 2025

[bullskokie]

I cant believe I would say this but we are so fun to watch like legit watchable… and funny hearing Adam slipped with the Zach Collins haircut comment hahaha

[Stratmaster]

That's a pretty pessimistic look at our current squad. Would argue Vuc and Lonzo Ball could either/both slot in as 2 of our best 3 players, and they're still here. We got Giddey for trading a bench player. We got a likely lottery first round pick back plus our future picks unlocked for Lavine, plus Collins and Huerter, that's not nothing. Collins is looking good and Huerter's picking it up. As for no good players, Matas, Coby, Smith, Ball, Vucevic are good players depending on what metric you're using. Ayo's been a good player, and could recover. We have probably one contract that could be considered bad, and that's only $18 mill. Huerter and Colins TBD.

Billy should be here. Purpose of a coach is to get the team wins, and not a lot of coaches getting many more wins out of this team with the injuries and poor defensive lineups the last few years and your best playmaker is Debo. You try starting White, Lavine, Debo and Vuc and trying to get your team to stay in games defensively, lmao! Every coach gets their decisions micromanaged by fans, wins are what counts. A team being at/near .500 with maybe the worst defensive starting lineup in the league has to be tough.

There is no universe where Lavine, Demar and Caruso weren't the 3 best players on this team. I would agree that Ball might fall in there but he hasn't been available.

Matas may evolve into a quality starter. I think he will. But he isn't now. Coby never has been. Ayo never has been although you might get away with starting him in a lineup that has 4 great players around him. Vuc is done here.

This team has underperformed expectations the entire time Billy has been here. He has mismanaged players. He has mismanaged lineups and rotations. He has mismanaged game situations. The team has never had a functioning offensive system compared to other teams coaching.

I have asked this question multiple times and never get an answer. Name one thing that has shown progress as Billy's tenure here has passed. One facet of the game. Hell, even one player who has blossomed under Billy's coaching.

Billy's solution is "we need to try harder". I guess every player on the team just is apathetic and doesn't give effort. If that is true, who is responsible for that from a high level, holistic perspective?

The Bulls have underperformed every season Billy has been at the helm.

Caruso and Vuc stats with the Bull same three seasons:
Season 1: 7pts, 4 rbs, 4 assists, 18/41 starts Vuc 17.6 pts, 11 rebounds, 3.2 assists 73/73 starts
Season 2: 5.6 pts, 2.9 rbs, 2.9 assists 36/67 starts Vuc 17.6 pts, 11 rebounds, 3.2 assists 82/82 starts
Season 3: 10pts, 3.8 rbs, 3.5 assists 57/71 starts Vuc 18 pts, 10.5 rebounds, 3.3 assists 74/76 starts

In no way, shape, form or fashion has Caruso been a better player than Vuc. Vuc is a perennial starter, Caruso is a perennial bench player. In no universe has Caruso been considered better than Vuc, or even in All-Star consideration. Caruso's at 6pts, 2.7 rbs, 2.7 assists this season. He's a 6'5 PG/SG who doesn't score, pass or rebound, just defend.

Coby has blossomed under Billy. Much better than he was. The only young player besides Pat and Ayo to get real minutes, and Ayo has performed very well at multiple times, especially for a second round draft pick. Coby: 13, 3.5 rbs, 2.7 assists rookie year to 19.1 pts, 4.5 rbs, 4.6 assists on better shooting last year. Was there some way he could give Coby longer arms, make him more consistent shooting? Or be a PG in the first place? Can't start at SG with Zach here.

Giddey looks better this year.
Matas is looking better.
Zach, Debo and Vucevic were too old to be "blossoming", but Zach and Vuc shooting career highs this season.

Pat Will is the only young player drafted in the top 10 that hasn't really developed. Likelihood of success for guys at Terry and Phillips draft position is low, anyway. And we had a team full of vets, no room to play them. Is that Billy's fault?

Bulls have arguably overperformed every year Billy has been at the helm.
Starting PG still getting paid, out for three years.
Starting PF played 17, 82, and 43 games last three years. And that guy is Pat Will. No real starting PF for 3 years.
Starting SG played 67, 77, 25 games last three years
Super valuable Caruso played 41, 67, 71

Bulls record last three years: 46, 40, 39. Are you saying these were 50+ win teams, and Billy under coached them?

If counting stats were the measure for players I would have to give you Vuc over Caruso. They aren't, and no one debates Caruso's effectiveness. If you think Vuc contributed to winning more than Caruso I am going to just concede that to you. It isn't worth arguing and it isn't the point.

Coby is the exact same player he has always been. He didn't blossom under Billy. He had one stretch of games last season where he played well and everyone started using ludicrous words to describe him. Like "all-star" for example. His counting stat increase is simply volume. When you play 10 more minutes per game and shoot on 16 possessions instead of 12 you're going to score more points. Billy has insisted on starting him when it is obvious his perfect role is the main scorer off the bench.

Matas isn't "looking better". He is simply finally getting playing time with the inconsistent results you expect from a rookie.

Zach Lavine shot better this year so somehow Billy developed him? the same Lavine who Billy used as a scapegoat his entire tenure here? The same all-star player, and most talented player on the team, who Billy managed to immediately alienate? To even mention Zach Lavine when talking about Billy Donovan is an indictment of Donavan and supports my position.

Why has PWill started his whole career with Billy? there were about 4 guys who outplayed him when starting at the 4. Who's fault is that?

The Bulls record the last 4 years also supports my position. 46 wins the first season. Then Billy managed to take the same team down to 40 wins. Then 39. This season it will likely be about 30. This is progress somehow? Where did I say this was a 50+ win team? I mean, they should have been the year they won 46 and should have been close to 50 the year they won 40. There is absolutely no reason this team shouldn't have been the 6 seed in the east this season. Wait, I take that back. The way Detroit has been playing recently I guess the 7th would be more accurate. It was simple. Don't start Williams and White. Reduce Vuc's minutes by 3 or 4 minutes per game and give them to Smith. Play Ball(Ayo)/Giddey/Lavine/Craig (Matas)/Smith significant minutes together.

[Infinity2152]

There is no universe where Lavine, Demar and Caruso weren't the 3 best players on this team. I would agree that Ball might fall in there but he hasn't been available.

Matas may evolve into a quality starter. I think he will. But he isn't now. Coby never has been. Ayo never has been although you might get away with starting him in a lineup that has 4 great players around him. Vuc is done here.

This team has underperformed expectations the entire time Billy has been here. He has mismanaged players. He has mismanaged lineups and rotations. He has mismanaged game situations. The team has never had a functioning offensive system compared to other teams coaching.

I have asked this question multiple times and never get an answer. Name one thing that has shown progress as Billy's tenure here has passed. One facet of the game. Hell, even one player who has blossomed under Billy's coaching.

Billy's solution is "we need to try harder". I guess every player on the team just is apathetic and doesn't give effort. If that is true, who is responsible for that from a high level, holistic perspective?

The Bulls have underperformed every season Billy has been at the helm.

Caruso and Vuc stats with the Bull same three seasons:
Season 1: 7pts, 4 rbs, 4 assists, 18/41 starts Vuc 17.6 pts, 11 rebounds, 3.2 assists 73/73 starts
Season 2: 5.6 pts, 2.9 rbs, 2.9 assists 36/67 starts Vuc 17.6 pts, 11 rebounds, 3.2 assists 82/82 starts
Season 3: 10pts, 3.8 rbs, 3.5 assists 57/71 starts Vuc 18 pts, 10.5 rebounds, 3.3 assists 74/76 starts

In no way, shape, form or fashion has Caruso been a better player than Vuc. Vuc is a perennial starter, Caruso is a perennial bench player. In no universe has Caruso been considered better than Vuc, or even in All-Star consideration. Caruso's at 6pts, 2.7 rbs, 2.7 assists this season. He's a 6'5 PG/SG who doesn't score, pass or rebound, just defend.

Coby has blossomed under Billy. Much better than he was. The only young player besides Pat and Ayo to get real minutes, and Ayo has performed very well at multiple times, especially for a second round draft pick. Coby: 13, 3.5 rbs, 2.7 assists rookie year to 19.1 pts, 4.5 rbs, 4.6 assists on better shooting last year. Was there some way he could give Coby longer arms, make him more consistent shooting? Or be a PG in the first place? Can't start at SG with Zach here.

Giddey looks better this year.
Matas is looking better.
Zach, Debo and Vucevic were too old to be "blossoming", but Zach and Vuc shooting career highs this season.

Pat Will is the only young player drafted in the top 10 that hasn't really developed. Likelihood of success for guys at Terry and Phillips draft position is low, anyway. And we had a team full of vets, no room to play them. Is that Billy's fault?

Bulls have arguably overperformed every year Billy has been at the helm.
Starting PG still getting paid, out for three years.
Starting PF played 17, 82, and 43 games last three years. And that guy is Pat Will. No real starting PF for 3 years.
Starting SG played 67, 77, 25 games last three years
Super valuable Caruso played 41, 67, 71

Bulls record last three years: 46, 40, 39. Are you saying these were 50+ win teams, and Billy under coached them?

If counting stats were the measure for players I would have to give you Vuc over Caruso. They aren't, and no one debates Caruso's effectiveness. If you think Vuc contributed to winning more than Caruso I am going to just concede that to you. It isn't worth arguing and it isn't the point.

Coby is the exact same player he has always been. He didn't blossom under Billy. He had one stretch of games last season where he played well and everyone started using ludicrous words to describe him. Like "all-star" for example. His counting stat increase is simply volume. When you play 10 more minutes per game and shoot on 16 possessions instead of 12 you're going to score more points. Billy has insisted on starting him when it is obvious his perfect role is the main scorer off the bench.

Matas isn't "looking better". He is simply finally getting playing time with the inconsistent results you expect from a rookie.

Zach Lavine shot better this year so somehow Billy developed him? the same Lavine who Billy used as a scapegoat his entire tenure here? The same all-star player, and most talented player on the team, who Billy managed to immediately alienate? To even mention Zach Lavine when talking about Billy Donovan is an indictment of Donavan and supports my position.

Why has PWill started his whole career with Billy? there were about 4 guys who outplayed him when starting at the 4. Who's fault is that?

The Bulls record the last 4 years also supports my position. 46 wins the first season. Then Billy managed to take the same team down to 40 wins. Then 39. This season it will likely be about 30. This is progress somehow? Where did I say this was a 50+ win team? I mean, they should have been the year they won 46 and should have been close to 50 the year they won 40. There is absolutely no reason this team shouldn't have been the 6 seed in the east this season. Wait, I take that back. The way Detroit has been playing recently I guess the 7th would be more accurate. It was simple. Don't start Williams and White. Reduce Vuc's minutes by 3 or 4 minutes per game and give them to Smith. Play Ball(Ayo)/Giddey/Lavine/Craig (Matas)/Smith significant minutes together.

You can use a lot of metrics other than counting stats for player value. Contract value is an indicator of how the league perceives a player. Whether that player starts is an indicator of how teams see them. How many minutes do they get? How much they get in trade is an indicator. Did Caruso net a package similar to what we gave up for Vuc? Or you can use your personal feelings or various advanced metrics. Except advanced metrics have an incredibly low impact on contract, which would be the truest estimation of market value. Isaiah Joe's advanced metrics were way better than Giddey's, not close to a better player. I'll match you. If you think one of our 6 guards Caruso's 5.6 pts, 2.9 rbs, 2. assists and 23 bench minutes of great defense contributed to winning more than our only quality big putting up 18pts, 11rbs, 3 assists nightly for 34 minutes, not going to argue that. Fourth or fifth guards often contribute more to team wins than starting centers, because who needs them?

Coby's shooting better from two point, three point and free throw than his rookie year. Not sure where you're going with the concept of development. The position he should be playing has been occupied most of his career, forced into the starting line up because of injuries. I guess if you think he had starter or superstar potential and Billy under coached him, ok. To me, he is who he is, no coach is bringing out some far superior version.

I could say the same thing about most of the young guys. Coby and Pat were the only high picks, Ayo, Terry and Phillips were long shots from jump. Kind of hard to develop young players on a win now team.

Bulls record kills your position. Bulls were 27, 22, and 22. Billy inherited much of that team. 31 games first year. 46 the second. Billy managed to take the team down to 40 by losing Lonzo Ball, starting PAT BEV at point part of the year. No talent drop off there.
Are the Kings a 50 win team now, 2 of the Big 3 with a better surrounding cast?

You just said the year they got 40 they should have been close to 50. That means a lineup of Ayo, Lavine, Debo, Williams, Vucevic is a 50 win team with Coby, Caruso off the bench. That's hilarious considering Zach, Debo, Vucevic are supposed to be terrible defenders, low ball IQ, and Williams trash. Debo supposedly kills team's offenses and doesn't fit the modern NBA. Our roster was not better than the Thunder, Warriors, Lakers, TWolves, Knicks, Nets, Heat, raptors, Pelicans, Mavericks, Pacers, Jazz and about 8 or 9 more teams didn't get 50 wins. We started backup PG's the entire season and our PF options were Pat Will and Javonte Green.

Don't start Williams sounds easy. Bench your number 4 draft pick to play who? We've had journeymen at PF besides Pat his whole tenure. Might as well say play Craig over Matas. I know with 20/20 hindsight you see Pat didn't develop into a starter, but when a guy gets drafted 4th he usually starts pretty quickly. Especially if there's no one in front of him but very undersized players. Strange everybody's ready to start Mata's next year with his stellar 6.7 pts, 2.9 rbs, 0.7 assists in 16 minutes. People clamoring for him to get minutes. We believe in his potential!

Pat's per 36 rookie year: 11.9pts, 5.9 rbs, 1.8 assists. FG 48%, 3pt 39% Best perimeter defender
Mata's per 36 rookie year: 15.2 pts, 6.6 rbs, 1.6 assists. FG 43% 3pt 34%
Wonder why Matas gets so much more love? Performance not strikingly better.

Not starting Pat means not starting our only capable perimeter defender. Unless you're starting Caruso at PF.

We also lost 10 games by 5 points or less in 2022. Lot nailbiters that could have gone either way. Guess you could blame all that on Billy and rotations, but how the players actually play has something to do with it. Debo running the offense at the end of the game cuts both ways.

[Stratmaster]

Caruso and Vuc stats with the Bull same three seasons:
Season 1: 7pts, 4 rbs, 4 assists, 18/41 starts Vuc 17.6 pts, 11 rebounds, 3.2 assists 73/73 starts
Season 2: 5.6 pts, 2.9 rbs, 2.9 assists 36/67 starts Vuc 17.6 pts, 11 rebounds, 3.2 assists 82/82 starts
Season 3: 10pts, 3.8 rbs, 3.5 assists 57/71 starts Vuc 18 pts, 10.5 rebounds, 3.3 assists 74/76 starts

In no way, shape, form or fashion has Caruso been a better player than Vuc. Vuc is a perennial starter, Caruso is a perennial bench player. In no universe has Caruso been considered better than Vuc, or even in All-Star consideration. Caruso's at 6pts, 2.7 rbs, 2.7 assists this season. He's a 6'5 PG/SG who doesn't score, pass or rebound, just defend.

Coby has blossomed under Billy. Much better than he was. The only young player besides Pat and Ayo to get real minutes, and Ayo has performed very well at multiple times, especially for a second round draft pick. Coby: 13, 3.5 rbs, 2.7 assists rookie year to 19.1 pts, 4.5 rbs, 4.6 assists on better shooting last year. Was there some way he could give Coby longer arms, make him more consistent shooting? Or be a PG in the first place? Can't start at SG with Zach here.

Giddey looks better this year.
Matas is looking better.
Zach, Debo and Vucevic were too old to be "blossoming", but Zach and Vuc shooting career highs this season.

Pat Will is the only young player drafted in the top 10 that hasn't really developed. Likelihood of success for guys at Terry and Phillips draft position is low, anyway. And we had a team full of vets, no room to play them. Is that Billy's fault?

Bulls have arguably overperformed every year Billy has been at the helm.
Starting PG still getting paid, out for three years.
Starting PF played 17, 82, and 43 games last three years. And that guy is Pat Will. No real starting PF for 3 years.
Starting SG played 67, 77, 25 games last three years
Super valuable Caruso played 41, 67, 71

Bulls record last three years: 46, 40, 39. Are you saying these were 50+ win teams, and Billy under coached them?

If counting stats were the measure for players I would have to give you Vuc over Caruso. They aren't, and no one debates Caruso's effectiveness. If you think Vuc contributed to winning more than Caruso I am going to just concede that to you. It isn't worth arguing and it isn't the point.

Coby is the exact same player he has always been. He didn't blossom under Billy. He had one stretch of games last season where he played well and everyone started using ludicrous words to describe him. Like "all-star" for example. His counting stat increase is simply volume. When you play 10 more minutes per game and shoot on 16 possessions instead of 12 you're going to score more points. Billy has insisted on starting him when it is obvious his perfect role is the main scorer off the bench.

Matas isn't "looking better". He is simply finally getting playing time with the inconsistent results you expect from a rookie.

Zach Lavine shot better this year so somehow Billy developed him? the same Lavine who Billy used as a scapegoat his entire tenure here? The same all-star player, and most talented player on the team, who Billy managed to immediately alienate? To even mention Zach Lavine when talking about Billy Donovan is an indictment of Donavan and supports my position.

Why has PWill started his whole career with Billy? there were about 4 guys who outplayed him when starting at the 4. Who's fault is that?

The Bulls record the last 4 years also supports my position. 46 wins the first season. Then Billy managed to take the same team down to 40 wins. Then 39. This season it will likely be about 30. This is progress somehow? Where did I say this was a 50+ win team? I mean, they should have been the year they won 46 and should have been close to 50 the year they won 40. There is absolutely no reason this team shouldn't have been the 6 seed in the east this season. Wait, I take that back. The way Detroit has been playing recently I guess the 7th would be more accurate. It was simple. Don't start Williams and White. Reduce Vuc's minutes by 3 or 4 minutes per game and give them to Smith. Play Ball(Ayo)/Giddey/Lavine/Craig (Matas)/Smith significant minutes together.

You can use a lot of metrics other than counting stats for player value. Contract value is an indicator of how the league perceives a player. Whether that player starts is an indicator of how teams see them. How many minutes do they get? How much they get in trade is an indicator. Did Caruso net a package similar to what we gave up for Vuc? Or you can use your personal feelings or various advanced metrics. Except advanced metrics have an incredibly low impact on contract, which would be the truest estimation of market value. Isaiah Joe's advanced metrics were way better than Giddey's, not close to a better player. I'll match you. If you think one of our 6 guards Caruso's 5.6 pts, 2.9 rbs, 2. assists and 23 bench minutes of great defense contributed to winning more than our only quality big putting up 18pts, 11rbs, 3 assists nightly for 34 minutes, not going to argue that. Fourth or fifth guards often contribute more to team wins than starting centers, because who needs them?

Coby's shooting better from two point, three point and free throw than his rookie year. Not sure where you're going with the concept of development. The position he should be playing has been occupied most of his career, forced into the starting line up because of injuries. I guess if you think he had starter or superstar potential and Billy under coached him, ok. To me, he is who he is, no coach is bringing out some far superior version.

I could say the same thing about most of the young guys. Coby and Pat were the only high picks, Ayo, Terry and Phillips were long shots from jump. Kind of hard to develop young players on a win now team.

Bulls record kills your position. Bulls were 27, 22, and 22. Billy inherited much of that team. 31 games first year. 46 the second. Billy managed to take the team down to 40 by losing Lonzo Ball, starting PAT BEV at point part of the year. No talent drop off there.
Are the Kings a 50 win team now, 2 of the Big 3 with a better surrounding cast?

You just said the year they got 40 they should have been close to 50. That means a lineup of Ayo, Lavine, Debo, Williams, Vucevic is a 50 win team with Coby, Caruso off the bench. That's hilarious considering Zach, Debo, Vucevic are supposed to be terrible defenders, low ball IQ, and Williams trash. Debo supposedly kills team's offenses and doesn't fit the modern NBA. Our roster was not better than the Thunder, Warriors, Lakers, TWolves, Knicks, Nets, Heat, raptors, Pelicans, Mavericks, Pacers, Jazz and about 8 or 9 more teams didn't get 50 wins. We started backup PG's the entire season and our PF options were Pat Will and Javonte Green.

Don't start Williams sounds easy. Bench your number 4 draft pick to play who? We've had journeymen at PF besides Pat his whole tenure. Might as well say play Craig over Matas. I know with 20/20 hindsight you see Pat didn't develop into a starter, but when a guy gets drafted 4th he usually starts pretty quickly. Especially if there's no one in front of him but very undersized players. Strange everybody's ready to start Mata's next year with his stellar 6.7 pts, 2.9 rbs, 0.7 assists in 16 minutes. People clamoring for him to get minutes. We believe in his potential!

Pat's per 36 rookie year: 11.9pts, 5.9 rbs, 1.8 assists. FG 48%, 3pt 39% Best perimeter defender
Mata's per 36 rookie year: 15.2 pts, 6.6 rbs, 1.6 assists. FG 43% 3pt 34%
Wonder why Matas gets so much more love? Performance not strikingly better.

Not starting Pat means not starting our only capable perimeter defender. Unless you're starting Caruso at PF.

We also lost 10 games by 5 points or less in 2022. Lot nailbiters that could have gone either way. Guess you could blame all that on Billy and rotations, but how the players actually play has something to do with it. Debo running the offense at the end of the game cuts both ways.

I conceded Vuc over Caruso to you in my previous post. It doesn't affect my point.

Coby is shooting better than his rookie year? you seem to gravitate back to shooting percentage as development by the head coach. That is ridiculous. And by the way, Coby is shooting worse than he did the last 2 seasons. So I assume that is Donovan's fault then, right? You don't seem to be understanding my points, because your other comment on Coby supports mine. He shouldn't be starting. Who decides who is in the starting lineup?

Billy didn't inherit those dismal Bulls teams. Vuc and Green were added his first season, and then Demar and Lonzo his 2nd. And finally Caruso. What the hell are you talking about?

Not sure what the Kings have to do with it. But YES. They actually do appear to be a 50 win team now. They are 6-2 in their last 8 games, have moved up 2 spots in the standings, and are 3 games over .500 after being, I believe 1 game below .500 at the trade. And they play in a tougher conference.

as far as Williams, benching him would have been easy, and in fact, Billy finally did it in favor of a raw rookie. Javonte Green outplayed Williams consistently. So did Caruso. So did Craig. So has Matas. So did Drummond. So has Smith. Did you notice trhat the season they won 46 games williams only played in 17 and only started in 9? I did. Apparently Billy didn't.

What "everyone" wants to do with Matas has nothing to do with this conversation. My position is that he is raw, and is not a quality starter at this point. I have no objection to him starting since the Lavine trade because it doesn't matter anyway.

[Infinity2152]

If counting stats were the measure for players I would have to give you Vuc over Caruso. They aren't, and no one debates Caruso's effectiveness. If you think Vuc contributed to winning more than Caruso I am going to just concede that to you. It isn't worth arguing and it isn't the point.

Coby is the exact same player he has always been. He didn't blossom under Billy. He had one stretch of games last season where he played well and everyone started using ludicrous words to describe him. Like "all-star" for example. His counting stat increase is simply volume. When you play 10 more minutes per game and shoot on 16 possessions instead of 12 you're going to score more points. Billy has insisted on starting him when it is obvious his perfect role is the main scorer off the bench.

Matas isn't "looking better". He is simply finally getting playing time with the inconsistent results you expect from a rookie.

Zach Lavine shot better this year so somehow Billy developed him? the same Lavine who Billy used as a scapegoat his entire tenure here? The same all-star player, and most talented player on the team, who Billy managed to immediately alienate? To even mention Zach Lavine when talking about Billy Donovan is an indictment of Donavan and supports my position.

Why has PWill started his whole career with Billy? there were about 4 guys who outplayed him when starting at the 4. Who's fault is that?

The Bulls record the last 4 years also supports my position. 46 wins the first season. Then Billy managed to take the same team down to 40 wins. Then 39. This season it will likely be about 30. This is progress somehow? Where did I say this was a 50+ win team? I mean, they should have been the year they won 46 and should have been close to 50 the year they won 40. There is absolutely no reason this team shouldn't have been the 6 seed in the east this season. Wait, I take that back. The way Detroit has been playing recently I guess the 7th would be more accurate. It was simple. Don't start Williams and White. Reduce Vuc's minutes by 3 or 4 minutes per game and give them to Smith. Play Ball(Ayo)/Giddey/Lavine/Craig (Matas)/Smith significant minutes together.

You can use a lot of metrics other than counting stats for player value. Contract value is an indicator of how the league perceives a player. Whether that player starts is an indicator of how teams see them. How many minutes do they get? How much they get in trade is an indicator. Did Caruso net a package similar to what we gave up for Vuc? Or you can use your personal feelings or various advanced metrics. Except advanced metrics have an incredibly low impact on contract, which would be the truest estimation of market value. Isaiah Joe's advanced metrics were way better than Giddey's, not close to a better player. I'll match you. If you think one of our 6 guards Caruso's 5.6 pts, 2.9 rbs, 2. assists and 23 bench minutes of great defense contributed to winning more than our only quality big putting up 18pts, 11rbs, 3 assists nightly for 34 minutes, not going to argue that. Fourth or fifth guards often contribute more to team wins than starting centers, because who needs them?

Coby's shooting better from two point, three point and free throw than his rookie year. Not sure where you're going with the concept of development. The position he should be playing has been occupied most of his career, forced into the starting line up because of injuries. I guess if you think he had starter or superstar potential and Billy under coached him, ok. To me, he is who he is, no coach is bringing out some far superior version.

I could say the same thing about most of the young guys. Coby and Pat were the only high picks, Ayo, Terry and Phillips were long shots from jump. Kind of hard to develop young players on a win now team.

Bulls record kills your position. Bulls were 27, 22, and 22. Billy inherited much of that team. 31 games first year. 46 the second. Billy managed to take the team down to 40 by losing Lonzo Ball, starting PAT BEV at point part of the year. No talent drop off there.
Are the Kings a 50 win team now, 2 of the Big 3 with a better surrounding cast?

You just said the year they got 40 they should have been close to 50. That means a lineup of Ayo, Lavine, Debo, Williams, Vucevic is a 50 win team with Coby, Caruso off the bench. That's hilarious considering Zach, Debo, Vucevic are supposed to be terrible defenders, low ball IQ, and Williams trash. Debo supposedly kills team's offenses and doesn't fit the modern NBA. Our roster was not better than the Thunder, Warriors, Lakers, TWolves, Knicks, Nets, Heat, raptors, Pelicans, Mavericks, Pacers, Jazz and about 8 or 9 more teams didn't get 50 wins. We started backup PG's the entire season and our PF options were Pat Will and Javonte Green.

Don't start Williams sounds easy. Bench your number 4 draft pick to play who? We've had journeymen at PF besides Pat his whole tenure. Might as well say play Craig over Matas. I know with 20/20 hindsight you see Pat didn't develop into a starter, but when a guy gets drafted 4th he usually starts pretty quickly. Especially if there's no one in front of him but very undersized players. Strange everybody's ready to start Mata's next year with his stellar 6.7 pts, 2.9 rbs, 0.7 assists in 16 minutes. People clamoring for him to get minutes. We believe in his potential!

Pat's per 36 rookie year: 11.9pts, 5.9 rbs, 1.8 assists. FG 48%, 3pt 39% Best perimeter defender
Mata's per 36 rookie year: 15.2 pts, 6.6 rbs, 1.6 assists. FG 43% 3pt 34%
Wonder why Matas gets so much more love? Performance not strikingly better.

Not starting Pat means not starting our only capable perimeter defender. Unless you're starting Caruso at PF.

We also lost 10 games by 5 points or less in 2022. Lot nailbiters that could have gone either way. Guess you could blame all that on Billy and rotations, but how the players actually play has something to do with it. Debo running the offense at the end of the game cuts both ways.

I conceded Vuc over Caruso to you in my previous post. It doesn't affect my point.

Coby is shooting better than his rookie year? you seem to gravitate back to shooting percentage as development by the head coach. That is ridiculous. And by the way, Coby is shooting worse than he did the last 2 seasons. So I assume that is Donovan's fault then, right? You don't seem to be understanding my points, because your other comment on Coby supports mine. He shouldn't be starting. Who decides who is in the starting lineup?

Billy didn't inherit those dismal Bulls teams. Vuc and Green were added his first season, and then Demar and Lonzo his 2nd. And finally Caruso. What the hell are you talking about?

Not sure what the Kings have to do with it. But YES. They actually do appear to be a 50 win team now. They are 6-2 in their last 8 games, have moved up 2 spots in the standings, and are 3 games over .500 after being, I believe 1 game below .500 at the trade. And they play in a tougher conference.

as far as Williams, benching him would have been easy, and in fact, Billy finally did it in favor of a raw rookie. Javonte Green outplayed Williams consistently. So did Caruso. So did Craig. So has Matas. So did Drummond. So has Smith. Did you notice trhat the season they won 46 games williams only played in 17 and only started in 9? I did. Apparently Billy didn't.

What "everyone" wants to do with Matas has nothing to do with this conversation. My position is that he is raw, and is not a quality starter at this point. I have no objection to him starting since the Lavine trade because it doesn't matter anyway.

And I gave it back to you. Same thing.

Also said not sure what you mean by development when you speak of Coby. If Coby shouldn't be starting based on your coaching experience with Lonzo out, who should be? Pat Bev? Ayo? When you don't have a better player in a position, you play who you have. We had 9 guards, none demonstrably better than Coby or Lavine. Caruso clearly doesn't handle starting well. Same thing with Pat, you play who's on the team. This insisting that starting perennial bench players would have resulted in better results is personal guessing. There's a reason why those guys never started.

Billy didn't inherit those teams? There are 15 players on a team. You point out adding Vuc and Green, while losing Carter and Porter Jr like the whole team changed, lmao!! Carter and Porter JR arguably help more! Carter's defense is better at least. I though Vuc was trash and makes us lose? So he inherited 80% of the team, it wasn't the EXACT same team. I'll be more specific. The players added a year or two later have nothing to do with the team he inherited. Vuc for Carter was the big change his first year. Bulls jumped from 22 wins to 31 wins. With the next year additions, they jumped from 31 wins to 46 wins.

Pat played 17 and started in 9 the year they won 46. That year Lonzo played 35 games, or almost half the season. Next year he played zero. Wonder which had a bigger impact? You keep comparing him to guys that barely if ever start in their careers and have been on multiple different teams who felt they were bench players. This is ridiculous. Caruso, Craig, Drummond, MATAS, none of those guys are starters either. No NBA team thinks so. Because they played better than Pat in a certain role and we can see that after the fact means nothing. Does Javonte even have a job right now?

What everybody wants to do with Matas has something to do with the Pat Will hate, and I'll compare them if I want to. Both rookies, Pat drafted higher, everybody hating on him and celebrating Matas. Similar numbers. Again, wonder why. Love his spunky, can do attitude? Great White Hope? That year they won 46 and Pat got injured, he was shooting 52% from 3pt, a very good defender. But he should have been on the bench. Why wouldn't they start him the next year? It was his third year and there was no one better. Of course, Ball was out the next year and everybody played worse.

If you're not sure what the Kings have to do with it, let me make it crystal clear. They're being led by Zach and Demar. Sabonis is unquestionably better than Vuc. Their star core is almost the same as ours, but better. Keegan Murray at PF, way better than Pat Will. Devin Carter, Jae Crowder, Markelle Fultz, Malik Monk, Valanciunas DESTROYS our bench. If our team was a 50 win team, their team should be 60+, based on talent. You say Billy's the reason we didn't win more games. You're really arguing a team led by Zach, Debo and Vuc with no PG and no PF on the team is a 50 win team automatically with average coaching? Don't think Billy's had an actual PF to play since he got here. Complaints about Billy loves 3 guard lineups, and then want to start Caruso, Javonte Green, etc at PF. They're guards too! Patrick Williams isn't even a PF, but he's had to start there. The Thunder can get away with starting 4 guys 6'6 and under because their guys are all great defenders. If we were winning all our games with Javonte or Caruso starting, you really think they lose their starting spots? Both had shots at the starting spot, and lost them. Is our win % much higher with Caruso starting? Caruso played in 41 games and started 18 the year we won 46. Next year they started him way more, he played way more games. 67 games, 37 starts. We dropped to 40 wins. Next season they make the great decision, he plays his most games (71), starts 57 games. We drop to 39 wins. Looks like the more Caruso starts, the more we lose.

Billy under coached this well constructed team full of winners. Probably cost us a ring, Lavine/Derozan/Vuc equals contender/2nd seed. We win 5 of those 10 gams we lose by 5 pts or less, our record is 45 wins that season. Changes nothing. So you got it. Billy doesn't know how to coach in the NBA.

[Stratmaster]

You can use a lot of metrics other than counting stats for player value. Contract value is an indicator of how the league perceives a player. Whether that player starts is an indicator of how teams see them. How many minutes do they get? How much they get in trade is an indicator. Did Caruso net a package similar to what we gave up for Vuc? Or you can use your personal feelings or various advanced metrics. Except advanced metrics have an incredibly low impact on contract, which would be the truest estimation of market value. Isaiah Joe's advanced metrics were way better than Giddey's, not close to a better player. I'll match you. If you think one of our 6 guards Caruso's 5.6 pts, 2.9 rbs, 2. assists and 23 bench minutes of great defense contributed to winning more than our only quality big putting up 18pts, 11rbs, 3 assists nightly for 34 minutes, not going to argue that. Fourth or fifth guards often contribute more to team wins than starting centers, because who needs them?

Coby's shooting better from two point, three point and free throw than his rookie year. Not sure where you're going with the concept of development. The position he should be playing has been occupied most of his career, forced into the starting line up because of injuries. I guess if you think he had starter or superstar potential and Billy under coached him, ok. To me, he is who he is, no coach is bringing out some far superior version.

I could say the same thing about most of the young guys. Coby and Pat were the only high picks, Ayo, Terry and Phillips were long shots from jump. Kind of hard to develop young players on a win now team.

Bulls record kills your position. Bulls were 27, 22, and 22. Billy inherited much of that team. 31 games first year. 46 the second. Billy managed to take the team down to 40 by losing Lonzo Ball, starting PAT BEV at point part of the year. No talent drop off there.
Are the Kings a 50 win team now, 2 of the Big 3 with a better surrounding cast?

You just said the year they got 40 they should have been close to 50. That means a lineup of Ayo, Lavine, Debo, Williams, Vucevic is a 50 win team with Coby, Caruso off the bench. That's hilarious considering Zach, Debo, Vucevic are supposed to be terrible defenders, low ball IQ, and Williams trash. Debo supposedly kills team's offenses and doesn't fit the modern NBA. Our roster was not better than the Thunder, Warriors, Lakers, TWolves, Knicks, Nets, Heat, raptors, Pelicans, Mavericks, Pacers, Jazz and about 8 or 9 more teams didn't get 50 wins. We started backup PG's the entire season and our PF options were Pat Will and Javonte Green.

Don't start Williams sounds easy. Bench your number 4 draft pick to play who? We've had journeymen at PF besides Pat his whole tenure. Might as well say play Craig over Matas. I know with 20/20 hindsight you see Pat didn't develop into a starter, but when a guy gets drafted 4th he usually starts pretty quickly. Especially if there's no one in front of him but very undersized players. Strange everybody's ready to start Mata's next year with his stellar 6.7 pts, 2.9 rbs, 0.7 assists in 16 minutes. People clamoring for him to get minutes. We believe in his potential!

Pat's per 36 rookie year: 11.9pts, 5.9 rbs, 1.8 assists. FG 48%, 3pt 39% Best perimeter defender
Mata's per 36 rookie year: 15.2 pts, 6.6 rbs, 1.6 assists. FG 43% 3pt 34%
Wonder why Matas gets so much more love? Performance not strikingly better.

Not starting Pat means not starting our only capable perimeter defender. Unless you're starting Caruso at PF.

We also lost 10 games by 5 points or less in 2022. Lot nailbiters that could have gone either way. Guess you could blame all that on Billy and rotations, but how the players actually play has something to do with it. Debo running the offense at the end of the game cuts both ways.

I conceded Vuc over Caruso to you in my previous post. It doesn't affect my point.

Coby is shooting better than his rookie year? you seem to gravitate back to shooting percentage as development by the head coach. That is ridiculous. And by the way, Coby is shooting worse than he did the last 2 seasons. So I assume that is Donovan's fault then, right? You don't seem to be understanding my points, because your other comment on Coby supports mine. He shouldn't be starting. Who decides who is in the starting lineup?

Billy didn't inherit those dismal Bulls teams. Vuc and Green were added his first season, and then Demar and Lonzo his 2nd. And finally Caruso. What the hell are you talking about?

Not sure what the Kings have to do with it. But YES. They actually do appear to be a 50 win team now. They are 6-2 in their last 8 games, have moved up 2 spots in the standings, and are 3 games over .500 after being, I believe 1 game below .500 at the trade. And they play in a tougher conference.

as far as Williams, benching him would have been easy, and in fact, Billy finally did it in favor of a raw rookie. Javonte Green outplayed Williams consistently. So did Caruso. So did Craig. So has Matas. So did Drummond. So has Smith. Did you notice trhat the season they won 46 games williams only played in 17 and only started in 9? I did. Apparently Billy didn't.

What "everyone" wants to do with Matas has nothing to do with this conversation. My position is that he is raw, and is not a quality starter at this point. I have no objection to him starting since the Lavine trade because it doesn't matter anyway.

And I gave it back to you. Same thing.

Also said not sure what you mean by development when you speak of Coby. If Coby shouldn't be starting based on your coaching experience with Lonzo out, who should be? Pat Bev? Ayo? When you don't have a better player in a position, you play who you have. We had 9 guards, none demonstrably better than Coby or Lavine. Caruso clearly doesn't handle starting well. Same thing with Pat, you play who's on the team. This insisting that starting perennial bench players would have resulted in better results is personal guessing. There's a reason why those guys never started.

Billy didn't inherit those teams? There are 15 players on a team. You point out adding Vuc and Green, while losing Carter and Porter Jr like the whole team changed, lmao!! Carter and Porter JR arguably help more! Carter's defense is better at least. I though Vuc was trash and makes us lose? So he inherited 80% of the team, it wasn't the EXACT same team. I'll be more specific. The players added a year or two later have nothing to do with the team he inherited. Vuc for Carter was the big change his first year. Bulls jumped from 22 wins to 31 wins. With the next year additions, they jumped from 31 wins to 46 wins.

Pat played 17 and started in 9 the year they won 46. That year Lonzo played 35 games, or almost half the season. Next year he played zero. Wonder which had a bigger impact? You keep comparing him to guys that barely if ever start in their careers and have been on multiple different teams who felt they were bench players. This is ridiculous. Caruso, Craig, Drummond, MATAS, none of those guys are starters either. No NBA team thinks so. Because they played better than Pat in a certain role and we can see that after the fact means nothing. Does Javonte even have a job right now?

What everybody wants to do with Matas has something to do with the Pat Will hate, and I'll compare them if I want to. Both rookies, Pat drafted higher, everybody hating on him and celebrating Matas. Similar numbers. Again, wonder why. Love his spunky, can do attitude? Great White Hope? That year they won 46 and Pat got injured, he was shooting 52% from 3pt, a very good defender. But he should have been on the bench. Why wouldn't they start him the next year? It was his third year and there was no one better. Of course, Ball was out the next year and everybody played worse.

If you're not sure what the Kings have to do with it, let me make it crystal clear. They're being led by Zach and Demar. Sabonis is unquestionably better than Vuc. Their star core is almost the same as ours, but better. Keegan Murray at PF, way better than Pat Will. Devin Carter, Jae Crowder, Markelle Fultz, Malik Monk, Valanciunas DESTROYS our bench. If our team was a 50 win team, their team should be 60+, based on talent. You say Billy's the reason we didn't win more games. You're really arguing a team led by Zach, Debo and Vuc with no PG and no PF on the team is a 50 win team automatically with average coaching? Don't think Billy's had an actual PF to play since he got here. Complaints about Billy loves 3 guard lineups, and then want to start Caruso, Javonte Green, etc at PF. They're guards too! Patrick Williams isn't even a PF, but he's had to start there. The Thunder can get away with starting 4 guys 6'6 and under because their guys are all great defenders. If we were winning all our games with Javonte or Caruso starting, you really think they lose their starting spots? Both had shots at the starting spot, and lost them. Is our win % much higher with Caruso starting? Caruso played in 41 games and started 18 the year we won 46. Next year they started him way more, he played way more games. 67 games, 37 starts. We dropped to 40 wins. Next season they make the great decision, he plays his most games (71), starts 57 games. We drop to 39 wins. Looks like the more Caruso starts, the more we lose.

Yes. Ayo should have been starting over Coby. I've said it a hundred times. He is better defensively and made more sense with Gidde, Lavine and Vuc. That was my whole point. Coby is a volume shooter who breaks the offense and would excel best in a 6th man role as the main bench scorer. It's obvious. Except to Billy.

Claiming that the talent level Billy was given isn't better than what was there before he came is disingenuous. Or if not purposely obtuse then it's stupid. Are you just looking to argue anything?

The Bulls were better when Williams wasn't starting. Hell they are better when he doesn't play. You can obfuscate all you want but the fact he and Coby started all this time is on Billy Donovan. He had players who proved they could provide better results.

Matas has nothing to do with any of this. Your debating other people's claims has nothing to do with mine. The Kings were a .500 team before the trade. It has nothing to do with this discussion.

Donovan has been horrible. The team has regressed with him at the helm. Any other coach in the NBA; or for that matter any other sport, would have been gone by now if they had his track record. Or maybe I'm wrong. What other coach has coached for 5 seasons with the team regressing over that tenure and still has a job there? Billy is a facade. Great PR guy. Horrible coach.

[Infinity2152]

I conceded Vuc over Caruso to you in my previous post. It doesn't affect my point.

Coby is shooting better than his rookie year? you seem to gravitate back to shooting percentage as development by the head coach. That is ridiculous. And by the way, Coby is shooting worse than he did the last 2 seasons. So I assume that is Donovan's fault then, right? You don't seem to be understanding my points, because your other comment on Coby supports mine. He shouldn't be starting. Who decides who is in the starting lineup?

Billy didn't inherit those dismal Bulls teams. Vuc and Green were added his first season, and then Demar and Lonzo his 2nd. And finally Caruso. What the hell are you talking about?

Not sure what the Kings have to do with it. But YES. They actually do appear to be a 50 win team now. They are 6-2 in their last 8 games, have moved up 2 spots in the standings, and are 3 games over .500 after being, I believe 1 game below .500 at the trade. And they play in a tougher conference.

as far as Williams, benching him would have been easy, and in fact, Billy finally did it in favor of a raw rookie. Javonte Green outplayed Williams consistently. So did Caruso. So did Craig. So has Matas. So did Drummond. So has Smith. Did you notice trhat the season they won 46 games williams only played in 17 and only started in 9? I did. Apparently Billy didn't.

What "everyone" wants to do with Matas has nothing to do with this conversation. My position is that he is raw, and is not a quality starter at this point. I have no objection to him starting since the Lavine trade because it doesn't matter anyway.

And I gave it back to you. Same thing.

Also said not sure what you mean by development when you speak of Coby. If Coby shouldn't be starting based on your coaching experience with Lonzo out, who should be? Pat Bev? Ayo? When you don't have a better player in a position, you play who you have. We had 9 guards, none demonstrably better than Coby or Lavine. Caruso clearly doesn't handle starting well. Same thing with Pat, you play who's on the team. This insisting that starting perennial bench players would have resulted in better results is personal guessing. There's a reason why those guys never started.

Billy didn't inherit those teams? There are 15 players on a team. You point out adding Vuc and Green, while losing Carter and Porter Jr like the whole team changed, lmao!! Carter and Porter JR arguably help more! Carter's defense is better at least. I though Vuc was trash and makes us lose? So he inherited 80% of the team, it wasn't the EXACT same team. I'll be more specific. The players added a year or two later have nothing to do with the team he inherited. Vuc for Carter was the big change his first year. Bulls jumped from 22 wins to 31 wins. With the next year additions, they jumped from 31 wins to 46 wins.

Pat played 17 and started in 9 the year they won 46. That year Lonzo played 35 games, or almost half the season. Next year he played zero. Wonder which had a bigger impact? You keep comparing him to guys that barely if ever start in their careers and have been on multiple different teams who felt they were bench players. This is ridiculous. Caruso, Craig, Drummond, MATAS, none of those guys are starters either. No NBA team thinks so. Because they played better than Pat in a certain role and we can see that after the fact means nothing. Does Javonte even have a job right now?

What everybody wants to do with Matas has something to do with the Pat Will hate, and I'll compare them if I want to. Both rookies, Pat drafted higher, everybody hating on him and celebrating Matas. Similar numbers. Again, wonder why. Love his spunky, can do attitude? Great White Hope? That year they won 46 and Pat got injured, he was shooting 52% from 3pt, a very good defender. But he should have been on the bench. Why wouldn't they start him the next year? It was his third year and there was no one better. Of course, Ball was out the next year and everybody played worse.

If you're not sure what the Kings have to do with it, let me make it crystal clear. They're being led by Zach and Demar. Sabonis is unquestionably better than Vuc. Their star core is almost the same as ours, but better. Keegan Murray at PF, way better than Pat Will. Devin Carter, Jae Crowder, Markelle Fultz, Malik Monk, Valanciunas DESTROYS our bench. If our team was a 50 win team, their team should be 60+, based on talent. You say Billy's the reason we didn't win more games. You're really arguing a team led by Zach, Debo and Vuc with no PG and no PF on the team is a 50 win team automatically with average coaching? Don't think Billy's had an actual PF to play since he got here. Complaints about Billy loves 3 guard lineups, and then want to start Caruso, Javonte Green, etc at PF. They're guards too! Patrick Williams isn't even a PF, but he's had to start there. The Thunder can get away with starting 4 guys 6'6 and under because their guys are all great defenders. If we were winning all our games with Javonte or Caruso starting, you really think they lose their starting spots? Both had shots at the starting spot, and lost them. Is our win % much higher with Caruso starting? Caruso played in 41 games and started 18 the year we won 46. Next year they started him way more, he played way more games. 67 games, 37 starts. We dropped to 40 wins. Next season they make the great decision, he plays his most games (71), starts 57 games. We drop to 39 wins. Looks like the more Caruso starts, the more we lose.

Yes. Ayo should have been starting over Coby. I've said it a hundred times. He is better defensively and made more sense with Gidde, Lavine and Vuc. That was my whole point. Coby is a volume shooter who breaks the offense and would excel best in a 6th man role as the main bench scorer. It's obvious. Except to Billy.

Claiming that the talent level Billy was given isn't better than what was there before he came is disingenuous. Or if not purposely obtuse then it's stupid. Are you just looking to argue anything?

The Bulls were better when Williams wasn't starting. Hell they are better when he doesn't play. You can obfuscate all you want but the fact he and Coby started all this time is on Billy Donovan. He had players who proved they could provide better results.

Matas has nothing to do with any of this. Your debating other people's claims has nothing to do with mine. The Kings were a .500 team before the trade. It has nothing to do with this discussion.

Donovan has been horrible. The team has regressed with him at the helm. Any other coach in the NBA; or for that matter any other sport, would have been gone by now if they had his track record. Or maybe I'm wrong. What other coach has coached for 5 seasons with the team regressing over that tenure and still has a job there? Billy is a facade. Great PR guy. Horrible coach.

I've also agreed many times Ayo should start over Coby. I've said it a hundred times as well. I also realize I could be very wrong. There's a reason Ayo didn't start over Coby, and we don't know Billy's reason. It's not because he doesn't see what you see, he gets to see much more.

Make up your mind. Talking about I'm being disingenuous. Yes, the team got better over years. The only real addition his first year was Vuc. Wasn't even an addition, we lost Carter, it was a swap. What huge change in roster was there other than that? We won more a lot more games. Yes, he got better players the second year. And we won way more games. So what's your point? You keep insisting somehow we should have won even more games than we did. Based on what? You can keep the obtuse and stupid comments to yourself. The logic would make sense if we added better players and lost more games. Had to come back and edit this, got me responding rudely to insulting statements.

You keep talking about regressing. Based on what??? One player looks, worse! One! The same guy who didn't look all that great in the first place. Please define how the team has regressed because of Billy. The majority of our players have less value than they did before? Regress means going backwards, which players are worse than they were before Billy coached them?

Please tell me at least you're one of the guys that have been saying all along that Coby, Zach, Debo, Vuc are all great players, stars even. Because to expect a coach to get 50+ wins without star players in the NBA is nuts. There were 6 teams with 50 wins in 2022. We did not have nearly the sixth highest talent level in the league. We didn't even have one top 15 player, let alone 2-3 top 15 like some teams. Some had two top 10 players.

You seriously saying a team led by Ayo, Lavine, Derozan, Vucevic and no PG is a guaranteed 50+ win team with a good coach, I'm done with this discussion. Our views are clearly too different. Looks like a 40 win team to me, 45 at best. Maybe I'm wrong.

Anybody else think Ayo, Lavine, Derozan, Caruso, Vuc looks like a clear 50 win team? If they don't get 50 wins, it's because of coaching?